I am in the process of removing an old "cutter 21" autopilot from the rudder post. As you can see in the photo the aft lazerette floor was modified to mount the rudder drive unit. The construction was made of 2 X 4's and it seems that it also serves as the mechinical stops for the maximum rudder travel. Has any one else found something similar? What did the original mechanical construction look like? Any information or pics that would help me rebuild the area would be greatly apreciated. Thanks, Richard McDonald rmcdonald@wi.rr.com
- Status
Richard...
I'm in the process of rebuilding and adding an autopilot to mine. I believe I have the original configuration and I have a weak bearing surface at the thru hull shaft log with a lot of play. Im adding an electro hydraulic unit with additional bushing support above the steering quadrant to stabilize the assembly. I had the bushing assembly machined at a local machine shop and I'll take some pictures and include them next week when I get it done. If it looks interesting to anyone I'll be happy to provide technical data and the number of the shop that machined the parts for me. This fix is doable without hauling the boat as it's a split bushing assembly and it strengthens the rudder assembly and relieves the load at the rudder shaft log. The auto pilot installs on an arm just above the quadrant and bushing, It's an AutoNav unit. I'll have pictures this weekend and I'll post them to the photo forum next week Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop H37C
I'm in the process of rebuilding and adding an autopilot to mine. I believe I have the original configuration and I have a weak bearing surface at the thru hull shaft log with a lot of play. Im adding an electro hydraulic unit with additional bushing support above the steering quadrant to stabilize the assembly. I had the bushing assembly machined at a local machine shop and I'll take some pictures and include them next week when I get it done. If it looks interesting to anyone I'll be happy to provide technical data and the number of the shop that machined the parts for me. This fix is doable without hauling the boat as it's a split bushing assembly and it strengthens the rudder assembly and relieves the load at the rudder shaft log. The auto pilot installs on an arm just above the quadrant and bushing, It's an AutoNav unit. I'll have pictures this weekend and I'll post them to the photo forum next week Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop H37C
Rudder stops.
I cannot make out all the details but that piece of 2x4 is normal(?). My boat has two four inch lengths of 2x4 for stops. The peg on the quandrant(actually a "radial drive wheel") is not supposed to go past those stops. Your lazarette floor has been cut out. Mine has two small inset panels. There is a "bridge" across the middle of the large opening we see in your picture. Then on top of the plywood shelf is a simple bushing that clamps around the rudder stock. It is where the autopilot quandrant is bolted in your picture. Under that bushing is a hard ceramic(?) pad that acts as bearing surface.
I cannot make out all the details but that piece of 2x4 is normal(?). My boat has two four inch lengths of 2x4 for stops. The peg on the quandrant(actually a "radial drive wheel") is not supposed to go past those stops. Your lazarette floor has been cut out. Mine has two small inset panels. There is a "bridge" across the middle of the large opening we see in your picture. Then on top of the plywood shelf is a simple bushing that clamps around the rudder stock. It is where the autopilot quandrant is bolted in your picture. Under that bushing is a hard ceramic(?) pad that acts as bearing surface.
Ed,
Here is a close up view. So the 2X4 stops are "standard issue", Huh..!, OK, I guess. Is the 2x4 cross member and half circle cut in the floor under the box also standard ? I will remove the autopilot drive unit, etc. and probably re-glass a new piece to replace to half circle cut out. I purchased a Simrad WP30CX autopilot with remote this weekend. Richard
Here is a close up view. So the 2X4 stops are "standard issue", Huh..!, OK, I guess. Is the 2x4 cross member and half circle cut in the floor under the box also standard ? I will remove the autopilot drive unit, etc. and probably re-glass a new piece to replace to half circle cut out. I purchased a Simrad WP30CX autopilot with remote this weekend. Richard
Huh?
Boy, that doesn't look like my '81 "stock" quadrant, and there are no 2x4's in my lazarette. What is the function of the 1/4-circle cut out? Does the "quadrant" ride on it? Other than structural support, I can't see where the 2x4's perform any "stopping" action, unless the vertical member is sticking up further than is clear in the photo...??? I'm puzzled, (or stupid!).
Boy, that doesn't look like my '81 "stock" quadrant, and there are no 2x4's in my lazarette. What is the function of the 1/4-circle cut out? Does the "quadrant" ride on it? Other than structural support, I can't see where the 2x4's perform any "stopping" action, unless the vertical member is sticking up further than is clear in the photo...??? I'm puzzled, (or stupid!).
Posted rudder support and auto pilot installation
I have added my rudder project to the photo/project forum. In answer to the original question of the stock rudder assembly I include a picture of what mine looks like before I got strarted reinforcing it. I have never seen one like Richard has and I've seen a lot of 37C's. As I stated in the photo forum captions I can get these made up if anyone is interested, the more the better as they get cheaper if he makes several due to set up costs on the C&C mill. I'm not sure if all Cherubini Hunters have the same rudder assemblies but I can tell you this mod has made my rudder as strong as any "super brand name" bluewater boats. This was beyond a doubt the single most concern I had about a sub par component on my boat. I believe this is also what drove Gene Gruender to build a watertight bulkhead on Rainbow Chaser in case he had a rudder failure due to structual problems resulting in water intrusion. Although there are no guarantees for anything in life, I feel pretty good about the increased strength of this system. Besides, I hate fiberglass work! Email if anyone is interested and I'll forward the number for the machine shop that did the work. hadoult@bellsouth.net Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop H37C WB4PAP
I have added my rudder project to the photo/project forum. In answer to the original question of the stock rudder assembly I include a picture of what mine looks like before I got strarted reinforcing it. I have never seen one like Richard has and I've seen a lot of 37C's. As I stated in the photo forum captions I can get these made up if anyone is interested, the more the better as they get cheaper if he makes several due to set up costs on the C&C mill. I'm not sure if all Cherubini Hunters have the same rudder assemblies but I can tell you this mod has made my rudder as strong as any "super brand name" bluewater boats. This was beyond a doubt the single most concern I had about a sub par component on my boat. I believe this is also what drove Gene Gruender to build a watertight bulkhead on Rainbow Chaser in case he had a rudder failure due to structual problems resulting in water intrusion. Although there are no guarantees for anything in life, I feel pretty good about the increased strength of this system. Besides, I hate fiberglass work! Email if anyone is interested and I'll forward the number for the machine shop that did the work. hadoult@bellsouth.net Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop H37C WB4PAP
Attachments
Thanks, Tom
Based on your pictures, your rudder modification would work on Rhapsodie. I can replace the 2 X 4 structure that I have with the same size angle iron, relocate the thrust bearing under the shelf and add your new bushing assembly. I hate glass work also. I will contact you via email for the details. Thanks again, Richard McDonald Rhapsodie H37C
Based on your pictures, your rudder modification would work on Rhapsodie. I can replace the 2 X 4 structure that I have with the same size angle iron, relocate the thrust bearing under the shelf and add your new bushing assembly. I hate glass work also. I will contact you via email for the details. Thanks again, Richard McDonald Rhapsodie H37C
Nice pics Tom.
Thanks for the photo essay. We never discussed that difference, angle-iron replaced the 2x4s! Well at least it was quality lumber. And they did use bronze screws to attach the rudder stops. I do wonder why they didn't paint it though.
Thanks for the photo essay. We never discussed that difference, angle-iron replaced the 2x4s! Well at least it was quality lumber. And they did use bronze screws to attach the rudder stops. I do wonder why they didn't paint it though.
Great Work, Tom!!
Your project just shows what a great resource this Board is! I am having trouble with water entry @ the rudder post, and must address the issue soon. Thanks for the great pix! A question: other than disconnecting the actuator from the arm, can you steer manually with the autopilot "in service"? Great installation. I also like the addition of the all-thread to strengthen the upper shelf.
Your project just shows what a great resource this Board is! I am having trouble with water entry @ the rudder post, and must address the issue soon. Thanks for the great pix! A question: other than disconnecting the actuator from the arm, can you steer manually with the autopilot "in service"? Great installation. I also like the addition of the all-thread to strengthen the upper shelf.
Hi Dave...
Thanks for the compliments! I had water coming in as well because the rudder had gotten so loose it cracked the F/G rudder log. It just seeped in when the rudder excerted side loads on it. I believe a previous owner had grounded it pretty hard and ended up replacing the rudder. Who ever did the work never bothered to reinforce the thru hull and it's been on my mind for quite some time. The problem is now solved! As for the autopilot being manually steered, when the pilot is engaged you can not physically overcome it as it's hydraulic and there is no clutch. The control head is right at the wheel with my other instruments though, so you can put it in standby or shut it off, manually steer and then resume course when ready. It also has power steering via the control head or a remote control so if your steering cables or mechanism breaks you can still steer the boat without using the emergency tiller, something that a wheel pilot will not do as it relies on the steering linkage to operate. The remote has a 30' cable which allows me to control the boat single handed or sit up on the bow and have a beer with my wife while the helm is vacant and everyone is wondering who is steering the boat. Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop WB4PAP
Thanks for the compliments! I had water coming in as well because the rudder had gotten so loose it cracked the F/G rudder log. It just seeped in when the rudder excerted side loads on it. I believe a previous owner had grounded it pretty hard and ended up replacing the rudder. Who ever did the work never bothered to reinforce the thru hull and it's been on my mind for quite some time. The problem is now solved! As for the autopilot being manually steered, when the pilot is engaged you can not physically overcome it as it's hydraulic and there is no clutch. The control head is right at the wheel with my other instruments though, so you can put it in standby or shut it off, manually steer and then resume course when ready. It also has power steering via the control head or a remote control so if your steering cables or mechanism breaks you can still steer the boat without using the emergency tiller, something that a wheel pilot will not do as it relies on the steering linkage to operate. The remote has a 30' cable which allows me to control the boat single handed or sit up on the bow and have a beer with my wife while the helm is vacant and everyone is wondering who is steering the boat. Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop WB4PAP
Tom........
As for the rudder thru-hull..... Did you have to rebuild it? I'm getting water entry there, (I think!!) and I understand that just tightening the board over it is the only way to tighten the "packing", whatever that is, to slow the ingress. What did you find down there? To my knowledge, Duet has never been grounded, so the rudder thru-hull should be in pretty good shape, but what do we know until we get all that stuff out of the way & find out, eh? Any "local knowledge" you picked up along the way would surely be appreciated. Thanks. Dave
As for the rudder thru-hull..... Did you have to rebuild it? I'm getting water entry there, (I think!!) and I understand that just tightening the board over it is the only way to tighten the "packing", whatever that is, to slow the ingress. What did you find down there? To my knowledge, Duet has never been grounded, so the rudder thru-hull should be in pretty good shape, but what do we know until we get all that stuff out of the way & find out, eh? Any "local knowledge" you picked up along the way would surely be appreciated. Thanks. Dave
I've been through the whole thing...
If your not leaking at the bottom of the fiberglass tube it's not likely that the seal is the problem. I've had the whole thing apart and what you have is a flange nut with a seal, not a packing gland like a shaft log. The F/G tube is above the water line then you have a short piece of hose with the flange nut attached to that and it really just keeps out splash water. It's possible you have a leaking hose but not really likely. If you do, tighten the hose clamps and if that does'nt work you'll have to drop the rudder to fix it but I wouldn't think that is the problem. If you notice on some of the rudder photo's I took, you'll see where the cockpit drains go to thru hull's that I put in. The factory job originally leaked and I thought it was coming from the rudder shaft log as it only happened under power. When I tore the rudder apart it was loose but not leaking. I finally just had a friend drive the boat while I investigated where the leak came from and the factory thru hulls were the culprit. They must have been stepped on over time and cracked. If your rudder is not loose, I'd be suprised if it's leaking. You'll have to dissasemble the quadrant to look so before you go to the trouble take a mirror and light and see if you can find it. If your rudder has got any play what so ever at the tru hull, you might want to consider reinforcing it as I did. Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop
If your not leaking at the bottom of the fiberglass tube it's not likely that the seal is the problem. I've had the whole thing apart and what you have is a flange nut with a seal, not a packing gland like a shaft log. The F/G tube is above the water line then you have a short piece of hose with the flange nut attached to that and it really just keeps out splash water. It's possible you have a leaking hose but not really likely. If you do, tighten the hose clamps and if that does'nt work you'll have to drop the rudder to fix it but I wouldn't think that is the problem. If you notice on some of the rudder photo's I took, you'll see where the cockpit drains go to thru hull's that I put in. The factory job originally leaked and I thought it was coming from the rudder shaft log as it only happened under power. When I tore the rudder apart it was loose but not leaking. I finally just had a friend drive the boat while I investigated where the leak came from and the factory thru hulls were the culprit. They must have been stepped on over time and cracked. If your rudder is not loose, I'd be suprised if it's leaking. You'll have to dissasemble the quadrant to look so before you go to the trouble take a mirror and light and see if you can find it. If your rudder has got any play what so ever at the tru hull, you might want to consider reinforcing it as I did. Tom Hadoulias S/V Lite Chop
- Status