I am new to sailing and I am looking to put a new Stereo in my Sailboat. I have been shopping some great brands, but I started to think about power requirements. I assume something that puts out 200 Watts would be a bad thing. Anyone know what kind of drain a stereo has on batteries and any advise I can get would be great. When I ask this question in the marine stores they look at me like I have 4 heads. Thanks
Stereo Selection and Power Requirements
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200W is peak
The 200W is the max output and can be a little inflated. Also, the 200W is probably for 4 channels, so if you only run 2 channels, the wattage is most likely going to be cut in half. And usually the wattage drops quite a bit if running on anything less than 14.4 volts. The number you want to look at is RMS wattage, usually about 1/2 to 1/4 the max amount. So, you're looking at probably only about 10W per speaker at a pretty loud level. Much less than that for ambient music. A lot will also depend on the speakers you choose, and how much wattage they require (look at RMS there, too).
The 200W is the max output and can be a little inflated. Also, the 200W is probably for 4 channels, so if you only run 2 channels, the wattage is most likely going to be cut in half. And usually the wattage drops quite a bit if running on anything less than 14.4 volts. The number you want to look at is RMS wattage, usually about 1/2 to 1/4 the max amount. So, you're looking at probably only about 10W per speaker at a pretty loud level. Much less than that for ambient music. A lot will also depend on the speakers you choose, and how much wattage they require (look at RMS there, too).
Stereo
If you are looking for just a standard head unit and a couple of speakers I don't see you having any problems. I don't think a radio draws a lot of power. If you go hooking up amps and lots of speakers to the head unit then you might have an issue. You might contact a stereo shop, most of them now have a marine division that would be able to guide you better than a marine store employee could. Visit www.propellerforum.com
If you are looking for just a standard head unit and a couple of speakers I don't see you having any problems. I don't think a radio draws a lot of power. If you go hooking up amps and lots of speakers to the head unit then you might have an issue. You might contact a stereo shop, most of them now have a marine division that would be able to guide you better than a marine store employee could. Visit www.propellerforum.com
It's a zero-sum game....
you pay for the power you consume, by having to replace it. Without knowing anything about your boat or batteries or sailing habits, it's impossible to give any useful advice on specifics, but I'm always willing to give my 2c, so here goes: The 'rated' power of an amplifier, whether peak or RMS, is only relevant when it is RUNNING at peak power. At lower output levels, the power draw is less - it's not completely linear, because there is some 'overhead' current that is consumed even when there is no output. I'm having a hard time imagining a sailboat into which you could blast 200 watts per channel (or total) without either blowing out your own eardrums or getting shot at by somebody else in the marina/anchorage. Another factor you're going to have to deal with is wiring. I just saw a 200W max car amp (RMS 50w x 2 channels) - see link below - that has a 25 Amp fuse on the input. Depending on the length of the run from your batteries, you may have to use some pretty heft wire to meet the 3% voltage drop standard - possibly as big as 4AWG. You'll also have issues with speaker wires. Also consider that you'll probably want speakers in the cockpit, and those will naturally need to be weatherproof. I've been looking for a set of weatherproof speakers and haven't seen any that will handle large doses of power, so you ought to look into that too. Finally, sailing is about peace, quiet and relaxation to many people. Nobody is going to do more than look at you oddly if you're reaching across a lake, bay or ocean with your stereo maxed out, but anchorages favored by sailors tend to be..... well..... quiet, peaceful and relaxing
Please don't take that wrong - just trying to help. Also, if you would care to share more specifics - boat model, battery/charger/alternator details, sailing/cruising habits or plans - you'll get some better advice on how to set up and run your electrical system. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8
you pay for the power you consume, by having to replace it. Without knowing anything about your boat or batteries or sailing habits, it's impossible to give any useful advice on specifics, but I'm always willing to give my 2c, so here goes: The 'rated' power of an amplifier, whether peak or RMS, is only relevant when it is RUNNING at peak power. At lower output levels, the power draw is less - it's not completely linear, because there is some 'overhead' current that is consumed even when there is no output. I'm having a hard time imagining a sailboat into which you could blast 200 watts per channel (or total) without either blowing out your own eardrums or getting shot at by somebody else in the marina/anchorage. Another factor you're going to have to deal with is wiring. I just saw a 200W max car amp (RMS 50w x 2 channels) - see link below - that has a 25 Amp fuse on the input. Depending on the length of the run from your batteries, you may have to use some pretty heft wire to meet the 3% voltage drop standard - possibly as big as 4AWG. You'll also have issues with speaker wires. Also consider that you'll probably want speakers in the cockpit, and those will naturally need to be weatherproof. I've been looking for a set of weatherproof speakers and haven't seen any that will handle large doses of power, so you ought to look into that too. Finally, sailing is about peace, quiet and relaxation to many people. Nobody is going to do more than look at you oddly if you're reaching across a lake, bay or ocean with your stereo maxed out, but anchorages favored by sailors tend to be..... well..... quiet, peaceful and relaxing
Please don't take that wrong - just trying to help. Also, if you would care to share more specifics - boat model, battery/charger/alternator details, sailing/cruising habits or plans - you'll get some better advice on how to set up and run your electrical system. Cheers, Bob s/v X SAIL R 8Do a search on the Archives ...
for "iPods and Boats - Yes you can ..." posted by Maine Sail. This was a great thread earlier in the winter. It was such a great reference for installing MP3 technology for music ... eliminating the clutter of cases and cases of CD's. It is the way to go on a boat ... When you see the ease with which our kids are loading literally thousands of hours of music in a credit card size device, it makes one feel silly about our old fashioned technology.
for "iPods and Boats - Yes you can ..." posted by Maine Sail. This was a great thread earlier in the winter. It was such a great reference for installing MP3 technology for music ... eliminating the clutter of cases and cases of CD's. It is the way to go on a boat ... When you see the ease with which our kids are loading literally thousands of hours of music in a credit card size device, it makes one feel silly about our old fashioned technology.
My thoughts
Aside from the power consumption you have to decide how you will use the stereo and what format your music is in. Audio DVD playes are less than $250 now and you can fit a lot of music on a DVD. My whole music collection(about 80 cds) fits on 2 DVDs. You can also add a screen later for video if you want(never happen on my boat). A wireless remote is very usefull and the ability to switch off the cockpit speakers is also good. If the HU does not have this ability, it is easy enough to add a switch from radio shack. Many times we listen to music in the cabin but do not want to broadcast it around an anchorage. Not everyone has the same great taste in music I do;-). Also consider a unit with satellite radio capabilities. An ipod interface is a plus. I would not be concerned about buying an auto vs marine unit. The marine units are usually a few years behiind in technology. If it lasts for 5 years, I will be happy. The auto mp3 player in my old boat is still going strong. Last year I opened it up before I sold the boat and there was no signs of corrosion after 3 years. Tim R.
Aside from the power consumption you have to decide how you will use the stereo and what format your music is in. Audio DVD playes are less than $250 now and you can fit a lot of music on a DVD. My whole music collection(about 80 cds) fits on 2 DVDs. You can also add a screen later for video if you want(never happen on my boat). A wireless remote is very usefull and the ability to switch off the cockpit speakers is also good. If the HU does not have this ability, it is easy enough to add a switch from radio shack. Many times we listen to music in the cabin but do not want to broadcast it around an anchorage. Not everyone has the same great taste in music I do;-). Also consider a unit with satellite radio capabilities. An ipod interface is a plus. I would not be concerned about buying an auto vs marine unit. The marine units are usually a few years behiind in technology. If it lasts for 5 years, I will be happy. The auto mp3 player in my old boat is still going strong. Last year I opened it up before I sold the boat and there was no signs of corrosion after 3 years. Tim R.
Audio Power
For those who doesn't know the relation between Amplifier power output, sound level and speaker efficiency, go to this web site. After check it out, I am certain most music loving person would agreed that 200W amp in kind of overkill. http://home.new.rr.com/trumpetb/audio/dBexamp.html
For those who doesn't know the relation between Amplifier power output, sound level and speaker efficiency, go to this web site. After check it out, I am certain most music loving person would agreed that 200W amp in kind of overkill. http://home.new.rr.com/trumpetb/audio/dBexamp.html
marine units
The real benefit to some of the marine units is the waterproof remote controls. I have a clarion m455 in my boat, with the remote mounted right next to my engine controls in the cockpit.
The real benefit to some of the marine units is the waterproof remote controls. I have a clarion m455 in my boat, with the remote mounted right next to my engine controls in the cockpit.
Unless you actually install power amps..
There is NO in dash car or marine stereo that will put out anywhere near 200 watts! These numbers are very, very bogus and used as a marketing scam only. Lose 20 pounds in one week! Buy my wealth management kit and you'll be a millionaire in no time at all working just two hours per week! Alpine in dash car stereo with 200 watts! Get my point.... To put it into perspective my home stereo amplifier, a real amplifier, is a two channel amp putting out a real, not claimed, 185 watts per channel. The amp alone, this is NOT a receiver just an amp, weighs a whopping 90 lbs in order to produce a real 185 watts per chanel at 8 ohms. The toroidal transformer, or power supply, in this amp is 10 inches in diameter and 6.5 inches thick in order to actually put out a "real" not "claimed" 185wpc. It is physically impossible for a car amp with a "chip" amplifier to produce any more than about 8 or 9 real watts per channel. On my boat I have a Pioneer "High Power" deck producing a claimed 22wpc (really more like 6-8wpc) and it draws 1.1 amps per hour to 4.4 amps per hour depending upon listening volume as measured by a Xantrex XBM. Cranked with all four speaker being driven it peaks out at about 4.4 amps per hour of current draw. This is a worst case scenario but I figure 3.5 amps per hour is a safe measure for a car stereo and a little on the conservative side. Start adding external amps and your going to see some huge draw but a car stereo is quite low. The key to buying a car stereo is to buy the most efficient speakers one can find. Try out the different speaker models without changing the volume on the stereo and you'll see the difference in efficiency. Some speakers are very inefficient S/N Ration 87db and some are very efficient S/N Ratio 92db. But keep in mind the S/N numbers are also usually bogus so listening for efficiency is the most accurate way to determine efficiency. A stereo system is just that a system and the speakers need to be mated to the stereo for the best efficiency although sound quality should be taken into account too.
There is NO in dash car or marine stereo that will put out anywhere near 200 watts! These numbers are very, very bogus and used as a marketing scam only. Lose 20 pounds in one week! Buy my wealth management kit and you'll be a millionaire in no time at all working just two hours per week! Alpine in dash car stereo with 200 watts! Get my point.... To put it into perspective my home stereo amplifier, a real amplifier, is a two channel amp putting out a real, not claimed, 185 watts per channel. The amp alone, this is NOT a receiver just an amp, weighs a whopping 90 lbs in order to produce a real 185 watts per chanel at 8 ohms. The toroidal transformer, or power supply, in this amp is 10 inches in diameter and 6.5 inches thick in order to actually put out a "real" not "claimed" 185wpc. It is physically impossible for a car amp with a "chip" amplifier to produce any more than about 8 or 9 real watts per channel. On my boat I have a Pioneer "High Power" deck producing a claimed 22wpc (really more like 6-8wpc) and it draws 1.1 amps per hour to 4.4 amps per hour depending upon listening volume as measured by a Xantrex XBM. Cranked with all four speaker being driven it peaks out at about 4.4 amps per hour of current draw. This is a worst case scenario but I figure 3.5 amps per hour is a safe measure for a car stereo and a little on the conservative side. Start adding external amps and your going to see some huge draw but a car stereo is quite low. The key to buying a car stereo is to buy the most efficient speakers one can find. Try out the different speaker models without changing the volume on the stereo and you'll see the difference in efficiency. Some speakers are very inefficient S/N Ration 87db and some are very efficient S/N Ratio 92db. But keep in mind the S/N numbers are also usually bogus so listening for efficiency is the most accurate way to determine efficiency. A stereo system is just that a system and the speakers need to be mated to the stereo for the best efficiency although sound quality should be taken into account too.
Hi Jim, whatever you decide to do...
FWIW I recommend that you install a marine grade DC stereo system for maximum output at minimum battery drain. If you really want 200 watts of output, this may force you into an AC system, which can really complicate your boat's power requirements. Terry
FWIW I recommend that you install a marine grade DC stereo system for maximum output at minimum battery drain. If you really want 200 watts of output, this may force you into an AC system, which can really complicate your boat's power requirements. Terry
Great Answers...Thanks
I have learned a great deal and thank you all for taking time to answer me. I will most likely follow the advice and go with a car stereo. I have many more options if I go that route. I also understand power ratings and usage better. Thanks again to everyone.
I have learned a great deal and thank you all for taking time to answer me. I will most likely follow the advice and go with a car stereo. I have many more options if I go that route. I also understand power ratings and usage better. Thanks again to everyone.
Sirius Sat Radio
We use a Sirius 1 radio with an auto kit and remote. I bought the radio on clearance at a Radio Shack for $10 I already have a Sirius subscription so the additional monthly cost is very low. I attached a power outlet in my Catalina Capri 22 near the switch panel (on an extra cicuit breaker) and attached the radio mount with double sided tape. I attached a suction cup to the base of the antenna and stick it to a smooth section of the cabin roof when we use the radio. Speakers are a $20 set of portable speakers from Wal-Mart. The speakers are powered with AA batteries and last all season on four batteries. Running speakers directly from the output on the satellite radio does require a volume control on the speakers. I also had to buy a longer patch cord to run from the radio to the speakers, about $5. We place the speakers on a nonslip pad on the cabin roof when we want to listen to the music while sailing. Nice thing about the speakers is that you could also plug a portable MP3 player, disc player or iPod into the speakers. No, its not concert hall quality, but a very economical and lower power system. Planned changes for this season? This year I am adding a Shakespeare Galaxy SRA-40 external antenna and thinking of mounting the speakers more permantly. But so far it works too well to change much.
We use a Sirius 1 radio with an auto kit and remote. I bought the radio on clearance at a Radio Shack for $10 I already have a Sirius subscription so the additional monthly cost is very low. I attached a power outlet in my Catalina Capri 22 near the switch panel (on an extra cicuit breaker) and attached the radio mount with double sided tape. I attached a suction cup to the base of the antenna and stick it to a smooth section of the cabin roof when we use the radio. Speakers are a $20 set of portable speakers from Wal-Mart. The speakers are powered with AA batteries and last all season on four batteries. Running speakers directly from the output on the satellite radio does require a volume control on the speakers. I also had to buy a longer patch cord to run from the radio to the speakers, about $5. We place the speakers on a nonslip pad on the cabin roof when we want to listen to the music while sailing. Nice thing about the speakers is that you could also plug a portable MP3 player, disc player or iPod into the speakers. No, its not concert hall quality, but a very economical and lower power system. Planned changes for this season? This year I am adding a Shakespeare Galaxy SRA-40 external antenna and thinking of mounting the speakers more permantly. But so far it works too well to change much.
I am way behind the curve on this one
in that we usually bring along a little Sony boom box w/CD player for overnights. Most of the time it gets to live in the cabin and bounce around as everything in the cabin does under sail. While you are sailing there is little need for entertainment in the form of music. There is music in the waves and wind and the way your boat interacts with them that you want to hear. Blind people can sail by using there ears to help them figure out what is going on around them. You can determine the direction of the wind and its intensity with just your ears and since the air is trasparent you cant quite as easily see this unless it is really blowing. I have seen one boatload of people out on LI Sound blasting Wagner as they sailed by but most people like the quiet and save their music for at the mooring, at anchor or at the dock. In crowded waters it is important to be able to hear the jetskis, powerboats and tugs with barges first as they can not hear you. Having said all of that, I think the mp3 player is probably the best bet in terms of interior real estate usage.
in that we usually bring along a little Sony boom box w/CD player for overnights. Most of the time it gets to live in the cabin and bounce around as everything in the cabin does under sail. While you are sailing there is little need for entertainment in the form of music. There is music in the waves and wind and the way your boat interacts with them that you want to hear. Blind people can sail by using there ears to help them figure out what is going on around them. You can determine the direction of the wind and its intensity with just your ears and since the air is trasparent you cant quite as easily see this unless it is really blowing. I have seen one boatload of people out on LI Sound blasting Wagner as they sailed by but most people like the quiet and save their music for at the mooring, at anchor or at the dock. In crowded waters it is important to be able to hear the jetskis, powerboats and tugs with barges first as they can not hear you. Having said all of that, I think the mp3 player is probably the best bet in terms of interior real estate usage.
I use a car stereo 5 amps max
is the max I've seen on the DC ammeter. So leaving the stereo on for 24 hours at a moderate level (2.5 amps) would mean 2.5x24=60 AH. This is probably a yawn event from the power consumption point of view. Using an AC powered stereo would be a real headache as you will not be able to use an inverter due to the square (not sine) shaped wave most produce. So you need to have a genset running to listen to music. Sine wave inverters are available but expensive. A DC unit will be much more easily incorporated into your power system. 200W output is PEP (peak envelope power) and represents the ability of the amplifier to drive the speakers without clipping the wave form. It has absolutely nothing to do (directly) with power consumption.
is the max I've seen on the DC ammeter. So leaving the stereo on for 24 hours at a moderate level (2.5 amps) would mean 2.5x24=60 AH. This is probably a yawn event from the power consumption point of view. Using an AC powered stereo would be a real headache as you will not be able to use an inverter due to the square (not sine) shaped wave most produce. So you need to have a genset running to listen to music. Sine wave inverters are available but expensive. A DC unit will be much more easily incorporated into your power system. 200W output is PEP (peak envelope power) and represents the ability of the amplifier to drive the speakers without clipping the wave form. It has absolutely nothing to do (directly) with power consumption.
Power is more than a function of volume
All else equal, a more powerful amp will sound better even at low levels. Nice clean bass at low levels is a great thing and more power does a better job delivering that. Unless you are an over the top audiophile a good car stereo with a set of efficient speakers will sound pretty damn good and still give you all the volume you will need - unless you plan on listening to your stereo from the other side of the marina.
All else equal, a more powerful amp will sound better even at low levels. Nice clean bass at low levels is a great thing and more power does a better job delivering that. Unless you are an over the top audiophile a good car stereo with a set of efficient speakers will sound pretty damn good and still give you all the volume you will need - unless you plan on listening to your stereo from the other side of the marina.
Just adding my ditto...
As a former car stereo guy in business...I can confirm what several others have said. The REAL wattage of "hi-power" car stereo units is a MAXIMUM of about 8 watts. No manufacturer will ever claim this but you can bench test it. The only way to get real high power in a car or boat is with a separate car amp...those big square things. Oh...and divide the rated power on those by about 8 typically as well...they don't stop the lying at head units! The good news is that with GOOD SPEAKERS and modest sound LOUDNESS requirements you can get pretty decent sound out of the cheapest BRAND NAME radios. Figure on a typical 2-3 amp draw at moderate listening levels.
As a former car stereo guy in business...I can confirm what several others have said. The REAL wattage of "hi-power" car stereo units is a MAXIMUM of about 8 watts. No manufacturer will ever claim this but you can bench test it. The only way to get real high power in a car or boat is with a separate car amp...those big square things. Oh...and divide the rated power on those by about 8 typically as well...they don't stop the lying at head units! The good news is that with GOOD SPEAKERS and modest sound LOUDNESS requirements you can get pretty decent sound out of the cheapest BRAND NAME radios. Figure on a typical 2-3 amp draw at moderate listening levels.
Found a great...
solution in the Crutchfield catalog for replacing the AM/FM/CD unit that came with the boat now that it lost one speaker output. JVC makes a double DIN size unit with AM,FM and both CD and Cassette drives and an aux input jack on the face for an iPod connection for under $300. 200 watts of sound.
solution in the Crutchfield catalog for replacing the AM/FM/CD unit that came with the boat now that it lost one speaker output. JVC makes a double DIN size unit with AM,FM and both CD and Cassette drives and an aux input jack on the face for an iPod connection for under $300. 200 watts of sound.
One more thing to think of-
We were once anchored in a quite bay for the night. About 100 feet away is a runabout with two young guys. They have a audio system on board as most boat dose and they surely using to to it's maximum capacity, cranking the volume up so loud that like the whole bay were belong to them-self. And I don't think they got 200W amp to get that kind of volume, as the whole area is so quiet.
We were once anchored in a quite bay for the night. About 100 feet away is a runabout with two young guys. They have a audio system on board as most boat dose and they surely using to to it's maximum capacity, cranking the volume up so loud that like the whole bay were belong to them-self. And I don't think they got 200W amp to get that kind of volume, as the whole area is so quiet.
Maine...
I can't disagree with you that a double DIN mounting will have a big hole. There are a number of choices that would fit the opening (mainly for GM & Chrysler product). Since it's going to be installed in a custom panel on the side shelf above the Nav station, replacement is not a concern (I'd just make another panel). I already have a good cassette and a good CD unit, but wanted a single unit with both so I don't have to play with speaker change-overs. The JVC plays all CD media (including MP-3's) and has an iPod connection as well as aux in and outs. I have a collection of custom made cassettes containing many groups not available on CD's. The cassette player in my last boat was twenty years old, in the boat for four years, and never had a head oxidation issue. Periodic cleaning with alcohol on a Q-Tip took care of that. A silica packet slid in the slot when not in use helps. We're not talking a concert hall environment but a boat. With good quality speakers the sound is quite good and doesn't need to be set at an ear-bleeding volume setting to be enjoyed in the cabin or cockpit. The RMS output is around 17 watts per channel, sufficient to be heard without distortion. The 200 watts of course is derived from 50 per channel max-certainly a marketing gimmick. Unless you're stone deaf you'll never need this kind of power. What works for me may not work for you.
I can't disagree with you that a double DIN mounting will have a big hole. There are a number of choices that would fit the opening (mainly for GM & Chrysler product). Since it's going to be installed in a custom panel on the side shelf above the Nav station, replacement is not a concern (I'd just make another panel). I already have a good cassette and a good CD unit, but wanted a single unit with both so I don't have to play with speaker change-overs. The JVC plays all CD media (including MP-3's) and has an iPod connection as well as aux in and outs. I have a collection of custom made cassettes containing many groups not available on CD's. The cassette player in my last boat was twenty years old, in the boat for four years, and never had a head oxidation issue. Periodic cleaning with alcohol on a Q-Tip took care of that. A silica packet slid in the slot when not in use helps. We're not talking a concert hall environment but a boat. With good quality speakers the sound is quite good and doesn't need to be set at an ear-bleeding volume setting to be enjoyed in the cabin or cockpit. The RMS output is around 17 watts per channel, sufficient to be heard without distortion. The 200 watts of course is derived from 50 per channel max-certainly a marketing gimmick. Unless you're stone deaf you'll never need this kind of power. What works for me may not work for you.
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