Stealthy gremlin – Please help

[Skipper]

There is a sneaky gremlin aboard.

26 foot Catalina sail, ’05 Honda OB electric start, 2 new Costco deep cycle batts; 80A house and 120A starting – selectable for house as well, 1 new Guest dual bank 10amp charger.

Intermittently, the engine will turn over slower than usual, and begin to turn even slower the more it’s cranked. Also, the engine won’t start, until I let go the starter button, then it fires. It acts exactly like a battery going dead. The problem is, the battery is brand new, hooked up to a brand new charger that indicates all is full. Also, control panel volt meter reads 13.2v. AND, even when I select “both” batts for about 1,400 total cold cranking amps, the problem is the same.

This problem started a couple months ago. At first, because I had just replaced the batts a couple weeks previous, I thought it was one of my trickle chargers gone bad, so I replaced them both with a single 3-stage charger. And this is my second new 120A batt – I thought the original new batt was defective after the new charger didn’t fix the problem, but the problem is still here.

Here’s the really strange part: The volt meter on the boat’s control panel shows the house battery being charged at 14+volts and the starting battery being charged at 13.2, after I crank the engine using the starting battery. After the charger detects all is well, both charging levels return to 13.2. The charger is recovering the wrong battery. –But not apparently to the detriment of the starting battery, for I’ve used it many days for house battery (I interchange the selection to cut down on the cycling for each battery). I’ve checked everything: volt meter connections, all batt connections including cables, charger connections, switched the selector each time, etc. Everything looks outstanding. The batts are hooked in parallel, using a common ground – Same for the charger, independent positive connections but common ground, as specified in the manual.

So, it is highly unlikely that I have had 2 bad starting batteries in a row from Costco, and the charger is likely ok, given that the same problem existed before installing it. The only thing I can come up with now, after hours of testing and analysis, is that the engine starter is grounding somehow when I push the start button, but that would not explain the charging issue. Does anyone have any ideas regarding both of these issues, and are they related?

Thanks,

 

[kenn]

Others will have specific testing advice (I don't have an inboard) but it sounds like you have a weak or loose connection somewhere between the battery, starting relay, and engine, which is limiting current to the starter. If as you say the engine won't even catch, then the fault may be closer to the battery.

 

[MrBee]

A lot of money to spend to fix a problem that hasn't been found yet ?
You don't mention checking the wiring and connections that run to the starter ?
You can have 20 batteries but it the Volts ain't making it to the starter it ain't gonna work.

Bee

 

[digby sailor]

starter?

Is it possible the starter need brushes and or bushings?

 

[digby sailor]

or ignition timing ?

 

[wonkodsane]

I am with kenn and Bee. Sounds like a bad connection somewhere.

 

[Don12364]

Skipper,
You say you have 'checked' all the wiring etc. I presume this is only a visual check. The symptoms are as if the voltage reaching the engine goes low whilst the starter button is being pressed and is not sufficient to allow the ignition to spark the plug(s). Then, as soon as you remove the starter current drain, the battery voltage immediately recovers and the ignition operates correctly. This is the result of either high resistance in the wiring or a partially seized starter (or engine!)

I suggest you do some simple electrical tests as well. For this you will need a simple digital voltmeter and these are available for only a few dollars.
First measure the voltage across the battery terminals. Keep watching the meter and press the starter button. If the voltage stays above 10 volts then the battery is probably okay.
Next measure the voltage across the starter motor. It should read zero until you press the starter, then it should jump up to more than 10 v. If the engine starts too readily either close the throttle or pull off the plug leads. The intention is to test the starter motor on load so one does not want the engine to start.
Now, if the battery is okay but there is a voltage drop in the wiring, the next task is to locate whether it is in the positive or the negative leads.
For this connect the positive meter lead to the battery positive terminal and the negative meter lead to the starter motor positive terminal. It should read 12v approx or whatever the battery voltage is. Now press the button and you should see the voltage drop to less than 1/2 volt. If it does not then the problem is in the main plus feed (red) or the starter relay.
Now do the negative side (black) in exactly the same way. i.e. neg meter lead to battery neg post and meter pos to starter neg wire. This point may be just the metal case of the starter motor but it would be better to get on to an actual wire terminal. Again the voltage when the starter is running should be less than 1/2 v. Check the tightness of the bolts holding the starter to the engine too.

Though the above four checks may sound tedious you only need to operate the starter for a couple of seconds whilst the meter gets a reading so the total time of operating the starter for all four tests will be less than ten seconds.
BTW if the starter voltages are good and it is still sluggish then it could be starter brushes stuck or worn out. Again a simple thing to cure.
Let us know what you find as, by following the above analysis, you are almost certain to discover where the problem lies.

 

[Skipper]

thanks for the input, but still don't understand the charging issue. Also, cables look fine between batts and engine, including at the engine. Cable connector between solenoid and starter in slightly rusted due to leaks from coupler when flushing - but it's not that rusty. I'll replace it anyway. But that wouldn't explain not enough juice getting to the plugs to fire the engine.

Have spent $0 money on a problem that hasn't been found yet, but thanks for the implication. Again, the problem happenned -after- I had replaced the batteries (and replaced one again under warranty), and I was going to put a 3-stage charger in anyway to replace the trickle chargers and preserve the new batteries, this was just a good time to do it.

I have agonized over this issue and have tried everything. I was hoping that by some miracle someone was familiar with these exact symptoms, including the charging issue and if the 2 issues were related.

Thanks again,

 

[Skipper]

Just found Donalex's post. Thanks! I will follow that process early next week. I had thought about a test meter, but all the cables etc looked so good I figured the cables are fine - but could be in the starter as suspected, and the meter may ascertain this.

Still confused about the charging issue.

 

[JoeWhite]

Skipper - you are wrking too hard. Donalex has done a fine job of explaining it. A voltmeter costs about $ 20.00 from Radio Shack. It will give you the info you need. It looks like a corroded connection or the strands inside the connecting cable is broken so that it can not deliver enough current - try using jumper cables temporarily. If you are concerned about charging, take the battery out and try starting your car with it. This will confirm that the battery is able to put out enough current. There may be a chrging problems as well, but this is not why your engine is turning slowly. I suspect corroded contacts at the starter bolts. Take a sand paper and clean them shiney then try again. I do not believe you have used the started long enogh for its bushing be bad or worn out yet. My 04 outboard has electric starter and it works just as good. How often do you replace the starter motor on your car - it gets used much more than the outboard.

 

[wonkodsane]

Cable connector between solenoid and starter in slightly rusted due to leaks from coupler when flushing - but it's not that rusty. I'll replace it anyway.

Don't replace them, just take them off, clean them up with a wire brush, and put them back on again. A few minutes work to possibly solve your problem without further expense would be worth it, eh? If not, you haven't lost anything but a couple of minutes of your time.

 

[sailingdog]

If everything looks okay after doing the electrical checks donalex suggests, I would highly recommend bringing the batteries to an auto parts store and having them load tested.

I'd point out that even though the batteries show basically full voltage, that is not a good indicator of what state of charge they are at or what shape they are in.

Just curious, but when was the last time you checked the electrolyte levels in the two batteries. You didn't say they were AGMs, so I am guessing that they are wet-cell batteries. If the electrolyte levels are down past the plates, the batteries will show typical voltages but will actually have very little real capacity.

Finally, you said:

I’ve checked everything: volt meter connections, all batt connections including cables, charger connections, switched the selector each time, etc. Everything looks outstanding. The batts are hooked in parallel, using a common ground – Same for the charger, independent positive connections but common ground, as specified in the manual.

Why are the batteries hooked up in parallel? They should not be in parallel, but wired to the two separate posts on the 1-2-both switch. That is not being wired in parallel, unless the switch is in the "both" position.

 

[BrianW]

Great diagnostic test Donoflex! I've printed it and put it in my boat maintenance file for future reference.

 

[Skipper]

Beauty. Love this forum.

Step one: Clean starter connector post and connector, even though it doesn't look too bad. Could be bad enough.

Step 2: Use meter in Donalex's process if problem still there.

Step 3. Repair offending gremlin-infested part.

Step 4: Attack charging gremlin separately. -I've emailed Marinco\Guest

Step 5: go sailing.

Thank you for info-

 

[Skipper]

Found it!

Found the gremlin. By accident. Never would have expected this.

After all the many diagnostic processes, time, labor, cussing, advice, etc., I was jogging the starter button yesterday to see if it dimmed the stern light(might indicate short in starter when activated). But couldn't even get enough juice to turn the motor 1 revolution.

Since the engine is OB, and is technically in the "portable" category, it has a pull start, in addition to electric start. So, decided to pull start the motor and see if some alt charging beefed up the batts (which by all logic and indications and connections, were flawless and fully charged). I grab the pull start, yank, then stand dumbfounded. The pull cord barely budged. The motor was seizing.

Subsequent inspection at the Honda dealer revealed an obliterated drive shaft cutlass bearing at the bottom of the shaft. Motor's fine. $50 repair. Absolutely nothing wrong with the boat's electrical system.:dance: The charging issue turned out to be a separate problem, having to do with a misconception of how the unit works, due to blatantly missleading brochure text.

 

[wonkodsane]

Re: Found it!

Good news, Skip! Have a great season!