Hello I have a 1982 Morgan 32 with a 135 on a furler. I would like to get a staysail rig set up for those days when the wind is howling. I used to sail 420's (long time ago) and remember that the jibs on these boats had an integral wire stay in the sail that functioned as the head stay. I was thinking of the same idea for a small staysail for my Morgan. I was thinking about a heavy and small sail (around 90%) with an integral wire stay in lieu of installing a permanent stay for the sail. In this way I could hoise the sail and stay when I want it, without have to deal with the empty stay during the use of my 135. Has anyone done something like this on their boat? Any advice or experience would be appreciated. Kevin
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Sail Magazine Article
There is an article in the December 20006 issue of Sail Magazine that descrobes one way of rigging a staysail using a hank-on Jib. It might gice you some ideas. Interesting thought about a sail with a wire luff. sounds like a good alterative, using a different tack attachment and an existing halyard. Good luck
There is an article in the December 20006 issue of Sail Magazine that descrobes one way of rigging a staysail using a hank-on Jib. It might gice you some ideas. Interesting thought about a sail with a wire luff. sounds like a good alterative, using a different tack attachment and an existing halyard. Good luck
Furling Option
Hey: When I furl the 135 in, two things happen. First the center of effort rises high off the deck. Second the thing just will not draw well with such a large reef in in it. Must be the impact of having all the furled material around the stay. So furling, while technically possible, doesn't work well in practice once I get more than 15% of the sail area removed. Kevin
Hey: When I furl the 135 in, two things happen. First the center of effort rises high off the deck. Second the thing just will not draw well with such a large reef in in it. Must be the impact of having all the furled material around the stay. So furling, while technically possible, doesn't work well in practice once I get more than 15% of the sail area removed. Kevin
Some thoughts ....
I vaguely remember that early Island Packets used such a system of a wire luffed staysail. Problem was/is that the sheeve attachment with the mast took a beating and usually broke after some time. I have the same system on one of my racing scows, and need to replace the luff wire (actually - ultra high tech super strength polymer) very often because of the chafe as the line goes over and around the sheeve. A 135%LP if the furling gear has both a top and bottom swivel, and the cut of the luff is reasonable, the sail has a foam luff, can be successfully reduced down in sail area by about 30% of SA and still have 'decent' shape. More than 30% reduction the shape, especially the luff shape, becomes very 'un-shapely'. 30% reduction of a 135%LP would get you down to 95% SA. One of the reasons for 'furlers' not gaining good SA reduction & decent shape is a slack forestay . The forestay should be tensioned (for 'normal' conditions) to about 12-15% (more in 'heavy wind' conditions) of the ultimate breaking strength of the wire - by applying backstay tension. If you dont have the minimum 12-15% of forestay tension, the luff will 'sag' off to leeward and the sail shape will become very 'bad' / 'baggy', plus you will get some adverse 'wrinkles' at the luff section when you roll the sail up on the foil. For what its worth and if all the items Ive listed above are 'correct', your probable cheapest and best performance option is to get an additional (used) foresail of about 100%LP (which can be sucessfully rolled down to a 70%) and simply change down from a 135 and use that smaller sail when overpowered ... but check that forestay (backstay) tension - first. Also since this is a mastheaded boat have you tried to deep reef the mainsail and simply sail on the full 135% and a deeply reefed main .... should give good balance to the boat with a large overall sail area reduction. Most mastheaded boats will sail 'nicely' on all points of sail with just the genoa flying! hope this helps
I vaguely remember that early Island Packets used such a system of a wire luffed staysail. Problem was/is that the sheeve attachment with the mast took a beating and usually broke after some time. I have the same system on one of my racing scows, and need to replace the luff wire (actually - ultra high tech super strength polymer) very often because of the chafe as the line goes over and around the sheeve. A 135%LP if the furling gear has both a top and bottom swivel, and the cut of the luff is reasonable, the sail has a foam luff, can be successfully reduced down in sail area by about 30% of SA and still have 'decent' shape. More than 30% reduction the shape, especially the luff shape, becomes very 'un-shapely'. 30% reduction of a 135%LP would get you down to 95% SA. One of the reasons for 'furlers' not gaining good SA reduction & decent shape is a slack forestay . The forestay should be tensioned (for 'normal' conditions) to about 12-15% (more in 'heavy wind' conditions) of the ultimate breaking strength of the wire - by applying backstay tension. If you dont have the minimum 12-15% of forestay tension, the luff will 'sag' off to leeward and the sail shape will become very 'bad' / 'baggy', plus you will get some adverse 'wrinkles' at the luff section when you roll the sail up on the foil. For what its worth and if all the items Ive listed above are 'correct', your probable cheapest and best performance option is to get an additional (used) foresail of about 100%LP (which can be sucessfully rolled down to a 70%) and simply change down from a 135 and use that smaller sail when overpowered ... but check that forestay (backstay) tension - first. Also since this is a mastheaded boat have you tried to deep reef the mainsail and simply sail on the full 135% and a deeply reefed main .... should give good balance to the boat with a large overall sail area reduction. Most mastheaded boats will sail 'nicely' on all points of sail with just the genoa flying! hope this helps
"Stowable" Inner Headstay
I read an article many years ago about mounting a stowable stay for a staysail. They mounted the stay part way down the front of the mast and attached the tack end to a heavily reinforced deck with some sort of chainbinder arrangement to pull enough tension on the stay. They lashed the chainbinder closed and hanked on a staysail. When they didn't want it they detached from the deck and secured it to the mast base. I think they just mounted a block outside the mast for the halyard. I don't see why you couldn't attach the tack end of this stay to the same plate that your masthead stay attaches to and rig it like a fractional rig. You probably wouldn't be able to sail with both headsails up but you could pick one or the other and stow the Inner stay when not used. Just a thought, Tom s/v Orion's Child
I read an article many years ago about mounting a stowable stay for a staysail. They mounted the stay part way down the front of the mast and attached the tack end to a heavily reinforced deck with some sort of chainbinder arrangement to pull enough tension on the stay. They lashed the chainbinder closed and hanked on a staysail. When they didn't want it they detached from the deck and secured it to the mast base. I think they just mounted a block outside the mast for the halyard. I don't see why you couldn't attach the tack end of this stay to the same plate that your masthead stay attaches to and rig it like a fractional rig. You probably wouldn't be able to sail with both headsails up but you could pick one or the other and stow the Inner stay when not used. Just a thought, Tom s/v Orion's Child
some great thoughts here
The problem with staysails as i see it is the ability to tack a big jib on headstay is restricted. so you can do it with a highfield lever,(spelling probably wrong. the lever allow you to tension a stay sail halyard down to the deck and to remove it when you dont need it and tie the stay aft. to the rail or the like. these are pretty common on big boats, the wire in the luff idea is not so hot because 1. the shive at the top wears, 2. Its almost impossible to get the luff tight, so you have to much sag and a lousy set, Not what you want in a staysail or blade. You may also have to add running backstays. these would offset the load at the top of the staysail stay. you dont want to put all that load in the middle of the mast section without something pulling back the other way to counter the pressure, that could result in a bent or broken mast. The final issuse is deck support. You would have to be able to distribute the load as to not damage or break the deck. the center of the deck was not designed for this upward load. so you got to use a bulkhead glassed in or rod to take the load to the hull. on most boats thats not an easy thing to do. but you cant just hook to an eye on the deck. so maybe a crappy looking rolled jib is the lessor of the problems.
The problem with staysails as i see it is the ability to tack a big jib on headstay is restricted. so you can do it with a highfield lever,(spelling probably wrong. the lever allow you to tension a stay sail halyard down to the deck and to remove it when you dont need it and tie the stay aft. to the rail or the like. these are pretty common on big boats, the wire in the luff idea is not so hot because 1. the shive at the top wears, 2. Its almost impossible to get the luff tight, so you have to much sag and a lousy set, Not what you want in a staysail or blade. You may also have to add running backstays. these would offset the load at the top of the staysail stay. you dont want to put all that load in the middle of the mast section without something pulling back the other way to counter the pressure, that could result in a bent or broken mast. The final issuse is deck support. You would have to be able to distribute the load as to not damage or break the deck. the center of the deck was not designed for this upward load. so you got to use a bulkhead glassed in or rod to take the load to the hull. on most boats thats not an easy thing to do. but you cant just hook to an eye on the deck. so maybe a crappy looking rolled jib is the lessor of the problems.
Wire luff staysail
Now that several people have told you that it is a dumb idea and can't possibly work, I thought I would let you know that I had exactly that arrangement on an Ericson 35 for many years. I had a genoa staysail with a wire luff that attached to the mast through a block and to the deck with a padeye. I used the genoa saysail with a yankee, basically a high cut genoa. I used the same arrangement for a tall boy spinnaker staysail. You can get plenty of tension on the luff with a winch, and have enormous sail area on a reach, then quickly reduce it by dropping the yankee. No runners were needed, but then the Ericson's mast was like a tree trunk.
Now that several people have told you that it is a dumb idea and can't possibly work, I thought I would let you know that I had exactly that arrangement on an Ericson 35 for many years. I had a genoa staysail with a wire luff that attached to the mast through a block and to the deck with a padeye. I used the genoa saysail with a yankee, basically a high cut genoa. I used the same arrangement for a tall boy spinnaker staysail. You can get plenty of tension on the luff with a winch, and have enormous sail area on a reach, then quickly reduce it by dropping the yankee. No runners were needed, but then the Ericson's mast was like a tree trunk.
Exactly Tom
My father-in-law's Corbin 39 (big, blue water cruiser) has a stowable inner stay like what Tom describes. He has a fitting that looks like a hose holder (but upside down) on the mast and the stay bends around that, near the foot of the mast and back up a few feet to a connection point. He also uses the 'chain binder' type of fitting so that it can be loosened and tightend easily. The key was the heavily reinforced deck fitting. If I recall, that was one of the areas he put a ton of thought and work into before deciding to build in the inner stay. I'll see if I can dig up some old pictures of his rig (unfortunately it's under cover for the winter right now...) Dave Crowley s/v Wind Dreamer II
My father-in-law's Corbin 39 (big, blue water cruiser) has a stowable inner stay like what Tom describes. He has a fitting that looks like a hose holder (but upside down) on the mast and the stay bends around that, near the foot of the mast and back up a few feet to a connection point. He also uses the 'chain binder' type of fitting so that it can be loosened and tightend easily. The key was the heavily reinforced deck fitting. If I recall, that was one of the areas he put a ton of thought and work into before deciding to build in the inner stay. I'll see if I can dig up some old pictures of his rig (unfortunately it's under cover for the winter right now...) Dave Crowley s/v Wind Dreamer II
sure
A wire luff stay'sl used to be quite the norm. I would through bolt a beefy pad eye with a nice big backing for the tack.
A wire luff stay'sl used to be quite the norm. I would through bolt a beefy pad eye with a nice big backing for the tack.
It depends ... 
If you want to fly a wire luff sail while sailing upwind in heavy air, you have some engineering to do. The forestay tension on your boat is probably in the 1500-2500 pound range. The tension of the wire luff sail would be about the same. You will need a halyard, sheave, and winch that will allow you to create that tension. A #48 (or larger) winch (bigger than your primaries) will be needed. The sheave needs a SWL of 5000 pounds (load is about double the tension). You can't mount a winch that large on most 32 footer's masts, so the winch will have to be aft, that means the mast bast block and the winch mounting will have to be carefully thought out. If you are going to set the tack somewhere aft of the stem fitting, you will need to engineer a padeye mount that is rated for a SWL equal to the stay tension. If you hoist from the masthead you are ok there, The masthead was designed for those loads. If you plan to hoist from below the masthead, you might need running backstays. It depends on the mast section. A good practice is to set the inner forestay or staysail halyard exit at the same height as the head of the main at one of the reef points. The tension of the leech will act to stabilize the mast when the main is reefed. All in all, it will probably be easier and more economical to add a tang to the mast for a removable inner stay and use a hanked on sail. The loads on the halyard, sheave, and deck gear will be much lower, and you have the option of flying a heavy air sail or a true storm sail from the stay. Just my opinion, YMMV
If you want to fly a wire luff sail while sailing upwind in heavy air, you have some engineering to do. The forestay tension on your boat is probably in the 1500-2500 pound range. The tension of the wire luff sail would be about the same. You will need a halyard, sheave, and winch that will allow you to create that tension. A #48 (or larger) winch (bigger than your primaries) will be needed. The sheave needs a SWL of 5000 pounds (load is about double the tension). You can't mount a winch that large on most 32 footer's masts, so the winch will have to be aft, that means the mast bast block and the winch mounting will have to be carefully thought out. If you are going to set the tack somewhere aft of the stem fitting, you will need to engineer a padeye mount that is rated for a SWL equal to the stay tension. If you hoist from the masthead you are ok there, The masthead was designed for those loads. If you plan to hoist from below the masthead, you might need running backstays. It depends on the mast section. A good practice is to set the inner forestay or staysail halyard exit at the same height as the head of the main at one of the reef points. The tension of the leech will act to stabilize the mast when the main is reefed. All in all, it will probably be easier and more economical to add a tang to the mast for a removable inner stay and use a hanked on sail. The loads on the halyard, sheave, and deck gear will be much lower, and you have the option of flying a heavy air sail or a true storm sail from the stay. Just my opinion, YMMV
Update on the stowable stay
I read the article in Dec '06 Sail magazine that was mentioned earlier. It is the same idea I was talking about only their inner stay was only 6" behind the headstay. They used a turnbuckle at the tack to get the required tension on the stay and they stowed it to a padeye on the rail when it wasn't in use. They could only use 1 at a time except for DDW went they could go wing on wing with the headsail and the staysail. The article was very well written and I suggest you pick up a copy, it is the current issue so it shouldn't be too hard to find. While reading that article they mentioned a few points that helped jog my memory about the original article. To put the tack in the middle of the foredeck the original article ran a support rod inside the boat from the padeye on deck to a strong mounting point on the hull and bonded a secure mounting there. This is similar to the way the chainplates are bonded to the hull on my Hunter 33.5. This puts the load on a strong, secure load bearing part of the hull, not the deck. This may interfere with your V-berth. I still think it's a good idea, just make sure that everything will bear the load. Tom s/v Orion's Child
I read the article in Dec '06 Sail magazine that was mentioned earlier. It is the same idea I was talking about only their inner stay was only 6" behind the headstay. They used a turnbuckle at the tack to get the required tension on the stay and they stowed it to a padeye on the rail when it wasn't in use. They could only use 1 at a time except for DDW went they could go wing on wing with the headsail and the staysail. The article was very well written and I suggest you pick up a copy, it is the current issue so it shouldn't be too hard to find. While reading that article they mentioned a few points that helped jog my memory about the original article. To put the tack in the middle of the foredeck the original article ran a support rod inside the boat from the padeye on deck to a strong mounting point on the hull and bonded a secure mounting there. This is similar to the way the chainplates are bonded to the hull on my Hunter 33.5. This puts the load on a strong, secure load bearing part of the hull, not the deck. This may interfere with your V-berth. I still think it's a good idea, just make sure that everything will bear the load. Tom s/v Orion's Child
One more thing
I forgot to mention that this Dec. article also recommended running backstays if the inner stay was mounted a significant distance below the masthead. Their's was ony 18" and they felt they were OK without the additional support running aft. Anything much more than the 18" you need to support the mast aft. Tom s/v Orion's Child
I forgot to mention that this Dec. article also recommended running backstays if the inner stay was mounted a significant distance below the masthead. Their's was ony 18" and they felt they were OK without the additional support running aft. Anything much more than the 18" you need to support the mast aft. Tom s/v Orion's Child
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