State of the sales market

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dgasmd

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Mar 20, 2011
5
none none Miami
I am looking at boats. Have been for the past few months actually. This would be my first. I am very interested in the 423 model, the younger the better.:D

What I am finding is that giving the stagnant economy and the very slow buyer's market for larger boats like these, the boats I am finding are what I am perceiving as overpriced. Some by $30-40K!!! Maybe it is my perception driven by me being a cheap bastard, but maybe it is they are unrealistically priced. The problem is the average Joe like me has no way to verify this based on recent sales as the sold price is not readily available and there are so many variables from boat to boat.

I know it is hard to price things we have for sale lower than what we think it is worth it to make it in tune with the current market. I went through that already with a house and learned a very painful lesson 23 months later when it finally sold!!

I like a couple of boats I've seen, but I am a bit hesitant to make an offer of (example out of thing air) $130K for a boat advertised for $160K. I almost feel like I am insulting the owner even though it is not my intention by any means. It is what I simply feel I want to pay for it. Worst case is they say no I guess:naughty::eek::naughty:

Am I too far off on this????
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,077
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
Unless you have a great deal of experience in buying and selling, the best thing you can do for yourself and the peace of mind when making a purchase is to obtain the services of a buyer's broker. It won't cost you anything in terms of the actual purchase price and you will get some good advice and equally important, you will get factual information of comparable sales figures.
The only difficult part is finding a good one and you might have to do some interviewing as well as solicitation of recommendations to ensure you do.
 

dgasmd

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Mar 20, 2011
5
none none Miami
I agree. However, broker's commissions come from the sale. The higher the sale price, the higher their commission. So regardless of who pays for the commission, it is only to their benefit that the boat sales for the highest price possible. I wished it wasn't the case as it would be the best scenario.
 

Rick I

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Jan 6, 2007
414
CS36Merlin and Beneteau 393 - Toronto
What I am finding is that giving the stagnant economy and the very slow buyer's market for larger boats like these, the boats I am finding are what I am perceiving as overpriced. Some by $30-40K!!! Maybe it is my perception driven by me being a cheap bastard, but maybe it is they are unrealistically priced.
How do you know they're overpriced? They may be more than you're willing to pay but you cannot say they're overpriced. There are no set prices for used boats and very difficult to find comparable recently sold boats. Everyone say it's a buyer's market but all I see is folks saying how hard it is to buy a boat. :)
 

dgasmd

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Mar 20, 2011
5
none none Miami
How do you know they're overpriced? They may be more than you're willing to pay but you cannot say they're overpriced. There are no set prices for used boats and very difficult to find comparable recently sold boats. Everyone say it's a buyer's market but all I see is folks saying how hard it is to buy a boat. :)
Since it is a buyer's market and I am a buyer with the money to buy I get to say what overpriced is :dance: I am not making this up. That is what a market is. Something is worth as much as a buyer is willing to pay for it not what the owner thinks it is worth. It is a rough reality I can relate too well due to personal experience being in the other side of the fence.

Now, boats a luxury item, so not even close to a break even investment, much less a future profitable investment like a home. However, I can relate the bursting of the housing market and the after math lasting to today still as a good reference point. I had a home I bought and had to sell due to moving to another town because of work. Market was in a nose dive at that point. My house 3 months before I put it for sale was appraised at X. 3 months after the market too a nose dive it was X-$100K. I waited thinking it was more than worth it and someone would come along. 23 months later of making mortgage payments, tax payments, and insurance, it sold for X-35%. I broke even, sort of, but I was more than happy it simply sold. Not too bad as today that same house is worth 50% of I sold it for in a bad market. So, in other words, what I think it is worth while I am trying to sell and what the guy sitting on the money thinks is worth may be 2 very different things.

Now, don't have to be desperate to sell it for less than I want, but reality is that if someone is not willing to pay me X now they are going to be less likely to do so later as the boat continues to depreciate regardless of all that beautiful and great maintenance I give it.:confused:
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,942
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
"It's complicated"

How do you know they're overpriced? They may be more than you're willing to pay but you cannot say they're overpriced. There are no set prices for used boats and very difficult to find comparable recently sold boats. Everyone say it's a buyer's market but all I see is folks saying how hard it is to buy a boat. :)
I'm votin' with Rick.
Further, I see that present market fracturing further... used to be, in better times, there was some constant interest in the lower 50% (by condition) of boats that were cheap and the seller used ambiguous phrasing like "would make great liveaboard." :)
Yeah, right.

Turnkey boats were rare in the good times and remain rare today. I see such boats - we'll call them the "1% boats", i.e. they really are that small a part of the used market - being actually ready to go with ALL PM's done. They sell quickly, then and in the present - but they are few and far between.

There are now fewer buyers for the typical "needs some work" boat. And, despite what the owners of most used boats will say, they usually need thousands of $ of labor and parts to bring them up to anything resembling a turn key condition again.

Thing is, there are also a lot of "late model" boats (about ten years old) that are on the market because the owners are skint and are upside down in their loan. Potential buyers are leary because they sense that an owner in that financial situation has had no money for any repairs or upgrades, either. The seller, OTOH, is trying to get out and pay off the loan and is determined to hold to a too-high price.

And no, I cannot explain why some seemingly-good deals just do not sell. Theories I have, 100% explanations I don't!

Enough rambling!
:confused:
 
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Apr 8, 2010
1,942
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
Doesn't yachtworld have actual sales data?
Licensed Brokers (only) have access to a "sold boat" database, with reported selling prices. Depending on the honesty of the posting broker of each sale, it's a reasonably helpful resource.
 

reworb

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Apr 22, 2011
234
Beneteau 311 Ft Myers Beach
I bought a boat at the beginning of this year and dealt with several sellers' brokers. I asked each broker for a list of the recent sales (from Yachtworld) of the same make and model. They all gave me a list one even admitted his seller was asking more than it was worth. I also asked how long the boat had been for sale.

I made my offer accordingly; based upon the fact that something is worth the comparable sales adjusted for time (increasing or decreasing depending on the market) and condition. I made several offers before one was accepted, the boats of the rejected offers remained unsold for months and had been listed for many months before I made my offer. I purchased for 83% of the seller's asking price, my initial offer was much lower.
 

Rick I

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Jan 6, 2007
414
CS36Merlin and Beneteau 393 - Toronto
Since it is a buyer's market and I am a buyer with the money to buy I get to say what overpriced is :dance: I am not making this up. That is what a market is. Something is worth as much as a buyer is willing to pay for it not what the owner thinks it is worth. It is a rough reality I can relate too well due to personal experience being in the other side of the fence.

Now, boats a luxury item, so not even close to a break even investment, much less a future profitable investment like a home. However, I can relate the bursting of the housing market and the after math lasting to today still as a good reference point. I had a home I bought and had to sell due to moving to another town because of work. Market was in a nose dive at that point. My house 3 months before I put it for sale was appraised at X. 3 months after the market too a nose dive it was X-$100K. I waited thinking it was more than worth it and someone would come along. 23 months later of making mortgage payments, tax payments, and insurance, it sold for X-35%. I broke even, sort of, but I was more than happy it simply sold. Not too bad as today that same house is worth 50% of I sold it for in a bad market. So, in other words, what I think it is worth while I am trying to sell and what the guy sitting on the money thinks is worth may be 2 very different things.

Now, don't have to be desperate to sell it for less than I want, but reality is that if someone is not willing to pay me X now they are going to be less likely to do so later as the boat continues to depreciate regardless of all that beautiful and great maintenance I give it.:confused:

It is a futile exercise to compare the boat market to the housing market. In housing there are many easily verifiable comps. And, if you're looking for a house they're mostly in the same spot that you're looking at. And, you can easily check what a house sold for. Quite often there're two or three on the same block, built by the same contractor, and all in the same condition. Take your pick! Just a few of the factors that make it totally different.

Boats are all over the place, in very different states of repair and differently equipped. Hard to get a handle on. Hard to compare. Published selling prices are unreliable. Brokers are not held to the same standards as real estate agents.

The test for successfully buying a boat is simple. Where's your boat? It's a buyer's market, should be easy. Don't have a boat yet? Maybe you're waiting for prices to drop to your price range. Boats are selling. In our small (250 members) club twenty members bought another boat this year, and most of them sold an old one too.

So you say boats are overpriced. Guess you'll not be going sailing on your own boat then.
 

Cwoody

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Aug 10, 2010
87
Beneteau 37 Galesville, MD
Research..research...research

I had a price range when I started shopping, but I looked for several years before picking a boat. Put together a spreadsheet (see attached) of all boats in the running from data gathered from the different web sites. Gave me a good prospective of what was out there and the range of different prices for similar boats. Boats landing in the top right area always caught my eye.

I took advantage of brokers experience and knowledge but I ultimatly bought a FSBO.

Looking is the fun part. :) The real work starts once you sign on the dotted line.

Good luck, cw
 

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dgasmd

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Mar 20, 2011
5
none none Miami
It is a futile exercise to compare the boat market to the housing market. In housing there are many easily verifiable comps. And, if you're looking for a house they're mostly in the same spot that you're looking at. And, you can easily check what a house sold for. Quite often there're two or three on the same block, built by the same contractor, and all in the same condition. Take your pick! Just a few of the factors that make it totally different.

Boats are all over the place, in very different states of repair and differently equipped. Hard to get a handle on. Hard to compare. Published selling prices are unreliable. Brokers are not held to the same standards as real estate agents.

The test for successfully buying a boat is simple. Where's your boat? It's a buyer's market, should be easy. Don't have a boat yet? Maybe you're waiting for prices to drop to your price range. Boats are selling. In our small (250 members) club twenty members bought another boat this year, and most of them sold an old one too.


So you say boats are overpriced. Guess you'll not be going sailing on your own boat then.
So you completely missed my point there. Read my post again. On your last line, I guess I will let it go;)

@reworb, your 83% is pretty much as to where I am on a couple of boats I've seen and I am currently considering. So, I guess I am not too far off then.

Thanks to everyone for the replies. It has been helpful so far.
 

reworb

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Apr 22, 2011
234
Beneteau 311 Ft Myers Beach
Don't worry about upsetting a Seller, the worst they can say is NO. I have had sellers on boats and houses tell me flat out NO WAY and then I've made another offer either right then at a little higher price or waited a few months and came back with the same offer( my wife gets very embarrassed when we are buying something). I've been successful in both houses and boats. Anyone who thinks you are insulting them with an offer is being childish, the people who are insulting them are the people who are not even making an offer; you are entering into a business relationship not a personal one, the Seller is trying to find the top of the market you are trying to find the bottom, the fair market price is somewhere between those two extremes.

I will tell you there are people out there who put their boats up for sale who are not really interested in selling they are testing the waters so to speak. I saw one boat that had been for sale on and off for 4 years. When you find one like that you will most likely be wasting your time. You can usually spot those because there's always a reason a boat or a house for that matter has been for sale for a long time, either there is a condition issue or an unreasonable seller.

Good luck and most important don't get disheartened keep looking. I spent months looking and drove literally over a thousand miles in my search.
 
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Dec 6, 2011
20
Wind Dance 39 Fort Myers Beach, FL
Considering you are a new buyer I would recommend you find a good broker that knows the boats you are interested in. I recently purchased a Beneteau 393 after looking for several years and found the experience of the broker to be invaluable. They can provide recently sold prices so you know what they are actually selling for, then you can make a reasonable offer.
 
May 25, 2012
46
Beneteau B393 Norfolk
dgasmd said:
I agree. However, broker's commissions come from the sale. The higher the sale price, the higher their commission. So regardless of who pays for the commission, it is only to their benefit that the boat sales for the highest price possible. I wished it wasn't the case as it would be the best scenario.
Find a buyers broker and agree on a fee. Don't base it on the final sales price. That's just a fee you'll have to pay. If the seller has a broker, thats their fee.
I recently bought a 393 as well, my first boat. Used a brokerage firm that I had been talking to for over 2 years. Thats how long it took me to find one! Ultimately the brokerage company had a boat for sale that I made a deal on. Great boat, couldn't be happier, any problems on the pre-buy and sea trial were fixed and seen to by the broker. I would never do it without one.
Good luck with your search. The price is right! - BCD
 

redege

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Jun 29, 2012
19
beneteau oceanis 351 queensland
bargain

If you look for the "bargain" the chance is that you will never be satisfied. I bought my first boat (Oceanis 351) 18 months ago, private for a reasonable price. The time was right, and I enjoyed sailing all those months that I could have been looking for a cheaper boat. Once you buy, stop looking, breath the fresh air, and consider yourself one lucky man!
Before I bought someone gave me this advice... buy the boat that is at least 90% perfect for your use.
 
Jan 22, 2008
32
Beneteau FIRST 42 Coos Bay, Oregon
I keep hearing the same crap, "we're in a down market, and why wont the owner bargin"..
You wouldnt see it from where I set.. the yacht broker next door to my canvas shop cant get listings.. and thoes she does, are sold withing a couple weeks..
The repo truck has come into the marina a few times over the last couple years but its for smaller boats in the 20 to 30 foot range. those of us with larger boats, say 40 to 50 foot, knew what we were getting into when we bought them, and many were perchased cash so there is no reason to "Have to sell"
Like the housing market, those that lost their tails are those that purchased in the last 10 to 15 years and mostly with very little down and then planned to re-financing and making a killing on the property..
Those of us that bought 30 years ago, saved our pennies for the down payment, worked two jobs for years to make the morgage, and scrimped to make ends meet.. well we're also the ones that are not affected by the downed market..
We bought our FIRST 42, 10 years ago for 1000.00 more than the asking price, with conditions for them to move it to the west coast.. we had looked for over 6 years for a good clean FIRST 38 without secuss.. when a clean 42 came on the market, we jumped on it.. and they are selling for more now then we paid for it then..
But I've still got another 15 years or so to sail this on e befor I give it up..
If there is one piece of advice I could give to a new buyer of a boat, its to remember one thing--- "The Money wont change your lifestyle, The Boat Will"..

dont waist your time over the funds if its the boat you want
 
May 25, 2012
46
Beneteau B393 Norfolk
Randyonr3 said:
.......If there is one piece of advice I could give to a new buyer of a boat, its to remember one thing--- "The Money wont change your lifestyle, The Boat Will"..

dont waist your time over the funds if its the boat you want
I like that advice! Find the boat you want, and buy it!!!! I looked for 10 years, really! The boat I bought will be mine for the rest of my life, and it's life! I'm 46, it's 9.
-BCD
 
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