this thing is a puzzle. the engine has been starting harder last 3-4 months until it would hardly start. yesterday we changed the fuel filter, bleed the lines ( twice ), checked and cleaned the glow plugs, installed different glow plugs, held the glow plugs for 2-3 minutes, and it wouldn't fire. seemed to be turning over fast enough, but no go. only after 30 minutes of trying different throttle positions, and using the decompression lever, did it finally fire. once running, it runs great, always has. this morning, it would hardly turn over. didn't start even using the decompression lever. the batteries charged during the night. i use both deep cycle batteries to start. they are 15 months old. i pulled the batteries and took them to AUTOZONE and the tested " good". they had about 1 1/2 hours to recharge on automatic 10 amp charger. i have absolutely no idea what to do next. the engine should have spun faster this morning i think...your advise will be greatly appreciated tom
starting a 5411 universal 11 hp diesel ( 1982 )
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fuel shut off
I don't have your model engine but my m-18 has a fuel shut off in the cockpit. It is a long cable with a "T" end in the cockpit. Every once in a while I need to wd-40 the end by the engine. Althou I push the "T" part down in the cockpit it will only partly open or close the shut off in the engine. I really need to replace the cable. good luck from a novice, Jack
I don't have your model engine but my m-18 has a fuel shut off in the cockpit. It is a long cable with a "T" end in the cockpit. Every once in a while I need to wd-40 the end by the engine. Althou I push the "T" part down in the cockpit it will only partly open or close the shut off in the engine. I really need to replace the cable. good luck from a novice, Jack
Couple of things maybe
You could try by passing the main + & - wires using jumper cables, if that works you know one of the cables is going bad inside its jacket. Or, the age could indicate possible corrosion/blockage in the exhaust mainfold, don't know if that model is subject to that.
You could try by passing the main + & - wires using jumper cables, if that works you know one of the cables is going bad inside its jacket. Or, the age could indicate possible corrosion/blockage in the exhaust mainfold, don't know if that model is subject to that.
Diesels need only two things: fuel and air
Assuming you've got the air part, then you have a fuel problem. Bleeding it twice seems to be a giveaway. Also, without a stop lever, how do you stop the engine? For some reason C30 owners have this fixation with "decompression levers" for starting their engines. There's no excuse for not having one that starts properly without the use of the decompression lever. If it were my boat, I would check the fuel system again, very carefully.
Assuming you've got the air part, then you have a fuel problem. Bleeding it twice seems to be a giveaway. Also, without a stop lever, how do you stop the engine? For some reason C30 owners have this fixation with "decompression levers" for starting their engines. There's no excuse for not having one that starts properly without the use of the decompression lever. If it were my boat, I would check the fuel system again, very carefully.
This happened to my 5411
Experienced the same symptoms with our 1983 Cat 30 with same engine. Take a look at the exhaust riser where the water is injected into the exhaust. You will have to disassemble the unit (where it enters the water muffler). You will probably find carbon packed in closing the exhaust. Easy and cheap fix if you do it your self with black pipe (replacement). Good luck and let us know what you finally find out. Great little engine.
Experienced the same symptoms with our 1983 Cat 30 with same engine. Take a look at the exhaust riser where the water is injected into the exhaust. You will have to disassemble the unit (where it enters the water muffler). You will probably find carbon packed in closing the exhaust. Easy and cheap fix if you do it your self with black pipe (replacement). Good luck and let us know what you finally find out. Great little engine.
thanks jack/phil/jack
will check exhaust, but it got a sustantial exhaust redo when i bought it...but will check. t
will check exhaust, but it got a sustantial exhaust redo when i bought it...but will check. t
stu - fixation
i was sure i would see a response from you stu, thanks. the motor runs good when started so i'm not thinking fuel/air at this point. i've used that decompression lever eactly twice. once on saturday when it did start, and once on sunday when it didn't. i wouldn't call that a fixation, rather more of a mild flirtation, the kind most c34 owners are known for. i'm thinking a short somewhere. something stealing the power from the starter. the batteries are good. the engine is not spinning fast enough to start. what do you think? t
i was sure i would see a response from you stu, thanks. the motor runs good when started so i'm not thinking fuel/air at this point. i've used that decompression lever eactly twice. once on saturday when it did start, and once on sunday when it didn't. i wouldn't call that a fixation, rather more of a mild flirtation, the kind most c34 owners are known for. i'm thinking a short somewhere. something stealing the power from the starter. the batteries are good. the engine is not spinning fast enough to start. what do you think? t
The engine is the ground, there should be
a large-ish black wire running back to the batteries. Tom, I liked that: "fixation or flirtation" sounds like the making of a good CW song! Good luck.
a large-ish black wire running back to the batteries. Tom, I liked that: "fixation or flirtation" sounds like the making of a good CW song! Good luck.
Ground on mine
Stu's info is correct, large diameter black wire to batteries (negative posts eventually). The end attached to the engine is a common (many wires grounded) bolt on the port side of the engine just above the starter under the exhaust manifold. I did have some trouble starting back in 1995 when the boat was purchased. Noticed the ground wire attachment, tightened it and problems were solved. Took all wires off, cleaned terminal (bolt) and spade lugs on wires. Reattached and sprayed with anticorrosive and have not had a problem since. The starter is a high current electrical motor and any resistance will reduce its power or keep it from turning. Like your car's battery terminals that can do the same thing. Also check the connections on the positive line (large diameter, high current carrying wire, usually red, that connects to the starter. And, any other large diameter wires that are part of the starting circuit. A volt meter will record 12 volts on these circuits, but they will not pass the current necessary due to the corrosive resistance. Good luck!
Stu's info is correct, large diameter black wire to batteries (negative posts eventually). The end attached to the engine is a common (many wires grounded) bolt on the port side of the engine just above the starter under the exhaust manifold. I did have some trouble starting back in 1995 when the boat was purchased. Noticed the ground wire attachment, tightened it and problems were solved. Took all wires off, cleaned terminal (bolt) and spade lugs on wires. Reattached and sprayed with anticorrosive and have not had a problem since. The starter is a high current electrical motor and any resistance will reduce its power or keep it from turning. Like your car's battery terminals that can do the same thing. Also check the connections on the positive line (large diameter, high current carrying wire, usually red, that connects to the starter. And, any other large diameter wires that are part of the starting circuit. A volt meter will record 12 volts on these circuits, but they will not pass the current necessary due to the corrosive resistance. Good luck!
thanks jack thanks any info helps
i will inspect all/ just a thought, if i need to...have you ever jumped the engine using the engine terminals + and -? would it work? also just for your info...my "guy" says there are three large cable wires running by the engine and he can't see or feel where they go... t
i will inspect all/ just a thought, if i need to...have you ever jumped the engine using the engine terminals + and -? would it work? also just for your info...my "guy" says there are three large cable wires running by the engine and he can't see or feel where they go... t
More
The three large cables might be ground from battery, to solenoid from battery, from solenoid to starter. It is not that difficult to trace these larger cables in this boat. You need to know what they are before troubleshooting. A flashlight, crawling around, you get to know your boat better. You can bypass a starter solenoid at the solenoid or connect the 12 volt positive directly to a starter, but you should know what you are doing. Lots of current in that battery can melt metal or cause a fire. Many of these boats have been modified over time (for example the harness, glow plug solenoid, etc.) so it is very important to determine what these larger wires do.
The three large cables might be ground from battery, to solenoid from battery, from solenoid to starter. It is not that difficult to trace these larger cables in this boat. You need to know what they are before troubleshooting. A flashlight, crawling around, you get to know your boat better. You can bypass a starter solenoid at the solenoid or connect the 12 volt positive directly to a starter, but you should know what you are doing. Lots of current in that battery can melt metal or cause a fire. Many of these boats have been modified over time (for example the harness, glow plug solenoid, etc.) so it is very important to determine what these larger wires do.
More, more
Jack's point is well taken. Those three wires could also be: 1-2-B switch to starter, engine ground to battery negative, and alternator output to house battery. You may not have a wire between the starter and the alternator. It depends on how you're wired. If we don't know, then you definitely should. U wrote: "have you ever jumped the engine using the engine terminals + and -? would it work?" Tom, you're not really "jumping the engine," you're shorting the starter to get it going. I have no idea what you mean by "the engine terminals + and -" since engines don't have terminals like that. Because of the small print on this 'site, I hesitate to tell you how to cross the starter posts with an insulated handled screwdriver. Maybe "your guy" can, others here might, or you can get a book or find it on the web and read how to do it. I have never had to do so, hope to never have to, and would suggest your first area of investigation to be determining what you have and if it's broken, fix it properly.
Jack's point is well taken. Those three wires could also be: 1-2-B switch to starter, engine ground to battery negative, and alternator output to house battery. You may not have a wire between the starter and the alternator. It depends on how you're wired. If we don't know, then you definitely should. U wrote: "have you ever jumped the engine using the engine terminals + and -? would it work?" Tom, you're not really "jumping the engine," you're shorting the starter to get it going. I have no idea what you mean by "the engine terminals + and -" since engines don't have terminals like that. Because of the small print on this 'site, I hesitate to tell you how to cross the starter posts with an insulated handled screwdriver. Maybe "your guy" can, others here might, or you can get a book or find it on the web and read how to do it. I have never had to do so, hope to never have to, and would suggest your first area of investigation to be determining what you have and if it's broken, fix it properly.
jack -exhaust
there are two "pipes" entering my exhaust "cube". the one to starboard has a "y" type fitting and is attached by a large dia rubber hose about three inches tall. where the hose off the y goes, i'm not sure yet. is this the correct side for me to check for carbon buildup? ( so far i've replaced the batteries, glow plugs, and had the starter rebuilt.) tom
there are two "pipes" entering my exhaust "cube". the one to starboard has a "y" type fitting and is attached by a large dia rubber hose about three inches tall. where the hose off the y goes, i'm not sure yet. is this the correct side for me to check for carbon buildup? ( so far i've replaced the batteries, glow plugs, and had the starter rebuilt.) tom
The hose off the Y is from the heat exchanger
The Y fitting is called the nipple at the exhaust riser. The exhaust riser is the big insulated pipe that takes the gas hot air exhaust from the back of the engine to the Y and to the muffler (your cube). The Y is where the hot raw water gets mixed with the hot gas. The other big hose off the cube is the mixed air and water and goes overboard. The Y fitting should have a 5/8 inch hose connected to the small part of the Y. That's the hose from the HX. Take that hose off and look inside, with a mirror or just poke with a pencil. (I doubt it's plugged, because it seems that folks with Yanmars seem to have this problem and in ten years with our M25, I have yet to hear of this condition - the weld at the nipple usually goes first.) Good luck.
The Y fitting is called the nipple at the exhaust riser. The exhaust riser is the big insulated pipe that takes the gas hot air exhaust from the back of the engine to the Y and to the muffler (your cube). The Y is where the hot raw water gets mixed with the hot gas. The other big hose off the cube is the mixed air and water and goes overboard. The Y fitting should have a 5/8 inch hose connected to the small part of the Y. That's the hose from the HX. Take that hose off and look inside, with a mirror or just poke with a pencil. (I doubt it's plugged, because it seems that folks with Yanmars seem to have this problem and in ten years with our M25, I have yet to hear of this condition - the weld at the nipple usually goes first.) Good luck.
5411 Starting needs, common issues
ALthough the correct rudimentary needs for a deisel are fuel & air, let me expand that a bit to hilight possible issues. 1) Fuel- simple test to see if that is your issue is to shoot WD-40 in the air intake, works like a deisel-safe starting fluid. If it starts then, work your way back up the fuel system to get fix (injector, air in line, fuel pump, etc) 2)Air - check intake. No-brainer 3)compression - need to do compression check, as loss of adequate compression will make her hard to start. 4)Backpressure, clogged exhaust can cause enough backpressure to make your engine not start. previous post mentions how to clear carbon out of the mixing elbow (where it tends to build up). Also check your waterlift muffler, it can fill with water if you turn the engine over lots without a start & cause backpressure (even backflow water into your engine, yikes). You'll need to drain the water out of the muffler if that is the case. 5)Juice to the starter - Amperage really, the wiring harnesses on the 5411's ran the juice through the whole harness (as I recall) which made it suseptable to corrosion/resistance. Check voltage/amperage at the starter when turing it over to see if it's getting enough "juice" (I'm not an expert here so someone feel free to correct my generalities here...) 6)lubrication - last as it's somewhat obvious, but...No lube will make her hard to turn over. Also check color of the oil on the dipstick, if it's sludgy & grey, you've got water in the block (ouch).
ALthough the correct rudimentary needs for a deisel are fuel & air, let me expand that a bit to hilight possible issues. 1) Fuel- simple test to see if that is your issue is to shoot WD-40 in the air intake, works like a deisel-safe starting fluid. If it starts then, work your way back up the fuel system to get fix (injector, air in line, fuel pump, etc) 2)Air - check intake. No-brainer 3)compression - need to do compression check, as loss of adequate compression will make her hard to start. 4)Backpressure, clogged exhaust can cause enough backpressure to make your engine not start. previous post mentions how to clear carbon out of the mixing elbow (where it tends to build up). Also check your waterlift muffler, it can fill with water if you turn the engine over lots without a start & cause backpressure (even backflow water into your engine, yikes). You'll need to drain the water out of the muffler if that is the case. 5)Juice to the starter - Amperage really, the wiring harnesses on the 5411's ran the juice through the whole harness (as I recall) which made it suseptable to corrosion/resistance. Check voltage/amperage at the starter when turing it over to see if it's getting enough "juice" (I'm not an expert here so someone feel free to correct my generalities here...) 6)lubrication - last as it's somewhat obvious, but...No lube will make her hard to turn over. Also check color of the oil on the dipstick, if it's sludgy & grey, you've got water in the block (ouch).
The wiring harness story
see link I agree that draining the muffler is required if cranking more than 30 seconds without start - it says so right on the engine panels on most Catalinas.
see link I agree that draining the muffler is required if cranking more than 30 seconds without start - it says so right on the engine panels on most Catalinas.
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