Starter woes

[PotomacDaysailer]

I went to take my still-new-to-me Seafarer 29 "Blue Moon" out the other day and the ignition failed to react at all, dead as a doornail. Batteries were fine. I tried to trace the wiring but wasn't able to find the fault on my own. So I had the marina fix it for me, it was a broken wire that must have happened when I was rummaging around in the locker.

Next time out I ran the engine, a single-cylinder Yanmar, flat out for quite a while, having read somewhere (on this forum, I think) that diesels like to run at full throttle and behave better if you do that. Found that the 8hp engine will push her at 5.6 kts running full throttle in calm water.

So anyway, now there's a new problem. The starter whirs when I turn the key but doesn't crank the engine. Before when I turned the key, it would go chugga-chugga-chugga until it caught and started to run. Then Saturday it went chugga-chugga-whir but on next try it started. After sailing a bit (and dropping my almost new phone in the lake) it started right up again.

Now it just goes whir, no chugga-chugga.

Could it be the solenoid failing to engage the starter with the engine? (That's just an uneducated guess.)

 

[Justin_NSA]

A whir sounds like the bendix isn't engaging the starter shaft/gear with the flywheel. It just spins instead. IMO, you need the bendix part of the starter assembly, not the whole thing (motor).

 

[dlochner]

Take the starter to automotive electrical shop, the kind that fix alternators and starters. They can bench test it and fix it for much less than the marina will charge. It should be easy to remove, a couple of bolts and a few wires. Remember to disconnect the battery first!

 

[DEB AND DION]

It sounds like you figured out. I would take the starter off and take it to a auto electric rebuilder. It may need new bushings, brushes, ect. as the starter is getting old and you don't want to be stuck with a engine that will not start.

 

[shemandr]

.....And take a picture of the wiring.

 

[TomY]

I just had a new solenoid installed on my diesels starter. It was worth it as the starter cost quite a bit more than the replacement. But googling a starter for your engine shows many priced less than $100. Might not be worth the repair. But it is a simple job for a starter shop.

 

[Head Sail]

I would suspect a bad connection (ground at the engine) or battery before messing with the starter or solenoid.
Also, I don't think diesels "like" to be run at full throttle. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

 

[Doug4bass]

My 3jh5e Owners Manual nearly requires that the engine be run at full throttle for a few minutes after each operating period. Presumably to clean out the carbon.
I'm confused.....

 

[Head Sail]

"Nearly requires". Sounds like an oxymoron. Either it does or it doesn't.

 

[PotomacDaysailer]

I would suspect a bad connection (ground at the engine) or battery before messing with the starter or solenoid.
Also, I don't think diesels "like" to be run at full throttle. Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

Connections were checked and fixed. Battery (actually both batteries, starting and house) are good.

What do you mean, don't believe everything I read on the Internet? If it's posted on the 'net it has to be true, doesn't it? [/sarc]

So what's the consensus - does running "balls to the wall" (under load) for extended periods, or at least occasionally, help or hurt the engine? Does running exclusively at low revs promote carbon buildup? I honestly don't know. "Dammit, Jim, I'm a sailor, not a mechanic!" (Always wanted to say that.)

 

[jssailem]

@PotomacDaysailer I think you got it... First clear up confusion on my part. Your profile says OK which I read as Oklahoma, but your avatar says your a "Potomac Daysailer". Those two places are miles apart. I would think day sailing on the Potomac would be a challenge from Oklahoma.

Sorry for the digress.

You are probably correct that the solenoid is having a problem. Nothing that replacement can not fix. But then the starter age has not been discussed. They too can need cleaning and parts replacement. Some feel the cost of removal, clean up and part replacement, then reinstall is off set by the $50-100 cost of a new starter. your boat your choice is the common phrase.

If understanding what is going on, I came across an interesting YouTube video. Here the guy is removing, trying to understand the function, and replacing a starter motor on a Perkins engine. The basics are the same as for your motor. It might be of help.

There are two parts to the video... Spoiler alert. He has success.

Your reading of diesels wanting and enjoying running at or nearly full throttle is spot on. Listen to truckers who put many more hours on their engines then boaters. They will tell you a good diesel will out live the owner.

To give you perspective, I was sailing this past March with my friend @LeslieTroyer, when his boat engine on Mahalo would not start. After several problem solving attempts Les whipped out a replacement starter and 30 minutes later had it installed. I just sailed the boat through some of the picturesque islands of the San Juan's known as Wasp Passage. Starter problems happen and we sailors just deal with it.
Good luck with your project.

 

[PotomacDaysailer]

@PotomacDaysailer I think you got it... First clear up confusion on my part. Your profile says OK which I read as Oklahoma, but your avatar says your a "Potomac Daysailer". Those two places are miles apart. I would think day sailing on the Potomac would be a challenge from Oklahoma ...

My permanent residence is in Oklahoma, but when I joined SBO I was working in Washington, D.C. on a temporary (18 months) contract. While there I bought a 16' daysailer (a Bombardier 4.8 to be exact) which I would take out on the Potomac from Leesylvania State Park in Virginia. Had a lot of fun in that little boat.

Thanks for the reply and advice, it is appreciated!

 

[Doug4bass]

"Nearly requires". Sounds like an oxymoron. Either it does or it doesn't.

Ok..... Its an oxymoron. Cat fight complete.

 

[dlochner]

If after you pull and inspect, rebuild, and reinstall the starter it still won't start, there is one more possibility that is common to Yanmars, and perhaps others. Your description that the starter whirrs but does not engage certainly points to the Bendix gear.

The other possibility if you hear the solenoid clicking, but nothing happens is a fault in the power to the solenoid. There is a wire, usually white, that goes from the main power lug on the starter to the key. Once the key is turn the power then flows to the start push button and then back to the solenoid where it supplies power to the starter. The problem is that sometimes there is too much of a voltage drop on this circuit so the solenoid does not fully engage. The solution is to upgrade that circuit with a larger gauge wire and make sure all the connections are clean. On my boat it was easier to run power from the battery to the key switch rather than from the starter back to the key switch. Haven't had a problem since and I now have 2 functioning starters.

 

[dlochner]

So what's the consensus - does running "balls to the wall" (under load) for extended periods, or at least occasionally, help or hurt the engine? Does running exclusively at low revs promote carbon buildup? I honestly don't know. "Dammit, Jim, I'm a sailor, not a mechanic!" (Always wanted to say that.)

As @jssailem says, the consensus is that it better to run a diesel under load and at higher RPMs than to leave them idling. The manual for my Yanmar says to run at high RPMs for at least 2 minutes every 2 hours if the diesel has been running a low speeds or idling. It also says to let it idle for 5 minutes after running it for a while.

When cruising by motor (an all too frequent experience on Lake Ontario) I try to run it at about 80% of Wide Open Throttle (WOT). This gets me to a good cruising speed. Running it faster will only make the stern wake larger, burn more fuel, and add little to boat speed.

 

[TomY]

Connections were checked and fixed. Battery (actually both batteries, starting and house) are good.

What do you mean, don't believe everything I read on the Internet? If it's posted on the 'net it has to be true, doesn't it? [/sarc]

So what's the consensus - does running "balls to the wall" (under load) for extended periods, or at least occasionally, help or hurt the engine? Does running exclusively at low revs promote carbon buildup? I honestly don't know. "Dammit, Jim, I'm a sailor, not a mechanic!" (Always wanted to say that.)

I checked and re-checked connections on mine. Thought the starter was shot so I took it off and bench tested it.

I used a bench vise to hold the starter and make a good neutral connection to the case from the battery by pressing the (-) cable terminal in the vise jaws with the starter flange. Then I could hit the direct wire to the starter.

I don't run my engine flat out for any other reason, than going full out. But we never charge batteries sitting at anchor at idle. I don't think that's good for them.

 

[shemandr]

It isn't just running the diesel at high RPM. The diesel likes to have a load. Not flat out but at about 80% of power curve. My source? Larry Borlin of Mack Boring. The advice about running before shut down may relate to allowing the cooling system to reduce the heat of the engine before shut down. But that is done at lower RPM. It think it is pretty much agreed that running diesels at idle or a little higher to charge the batteries is bad for the diesel.

 

[Davidasailor26]

The Yanmar manual is pretty ambiguous on this. They say during the break in to run it pretty hard (70%, increasing to 80% for 10 minutes every 30 and 100% for 5 minutes every 30). There are other paragraphs about not running it at idle for long periods to avoid carbon build up, but those are all in the break-in section. After the break-in section of the manual they don't really talk about how hard to run it, other than to say that it's designed to run at WOT for less than 5% of the time, and 90% for less than 90% of the time.

 

[MitchM]

mack boring yan mar's east coast distributor has a diesel on display that has 100,000 hours on it. and larry berlin tells every student 'run them hot and run them hard' . he's been teaching diesel mechanics longer than i am alive, so i listen to him..

 

[dlochner]

After the break-in section of the manual they don't really talk about how hard to run it, other than to say that it's designed to run at WOT for less than 5% of the time, and 90% for less than 90% of the time.

So running at 80% WOT seems to make sense.

There is a sweet spot for cruising, low fuel consumption, good for the engine, and decent boat speed. Each boat is going to vary a bit, ~80% WOT seems to be the sweet spot for the 2 boats with diesels that I have owned.