STARTER OR SOMETHING ELSE?

[CHARLIE STAGE]

I have been going through a multitude of maintenance and repairs on my 1989 Cal 33-2.
Today I had finished bleeding air from the Yanmar 3GM 30F diesel and when I tried to start it it turned over coughed several times but did not start. I let it rest a bit then tried again. A couple coughs and then the starter just whirred! I went below and checked to make sure I had left nothing ot of place and then tried again. Just a whirrr! I had replaced this starter about 5 years ago. My original lasted 20+ years. Since it was getting dark and I was worn out I rowed back home and here I am. What do you think? Should I order a new starter or is there something I am forgetting?

 

[Ken13559]

Fisherman's friend is good for dry throat cough although it does nothing for your engine.

 

[CHARLIE STAGE]

I usually rub Vick's Vapo-Rub on her when she coughs, but I did not have any with me.

 

[LeslieTroyer]

Sounds like the bendix is shot.

 

[Skipper]

Whap the starter with a mallet. Then try. If it starts = sticky drive.
If not, rotate the motor by hand at the pulley. Might have to decompress. Try again. If it starts = missing flywheel tooth.
If neither works, overrun clutch is slipped.

 

[kloudie1]

As Skipper says.. but most common is the "Bendix" which is a one way clutch that lets the starter motor drive the engine but won't let engine drive the starter once the engine starts.

 

[CHARLIE STAGE]

Sunday was my day of rest. If the weather holds I will be back to the boat today to give the suggestions a try. Thanks much and I will update this post with my progress.

 

[JamesG161]

A couple coughs and then the starter just whirred!

Check voltage on your stater battery and check your oil for water intrusion.

I changed my starter on my Yanmar genset. It still whirred.
Turned out to be a loose in line fuse holder.
Jim...

 

[Justin_NSA]

Another vote for a bad bendix. Was your 5 year old one a Chinese knockoff? At least your starter didn't break in half like mine did. It was not original either. To its credit, it started the engine one last time to get me in to the dock. They are an easy swap out on my Hunter.

 

[Skipper]

As Skipper says.. but most common is the "Bendix" which is a one way clutch that lets the starter motor drive the engine but won't let engine drive the starter once the engine starts.

Sorry, "overrun clutch" = Bendix.
Like Kleenex.

 

[CHARLIE STAGE]

Hello all, problem is now a little more serious. I went back to boat and tried starter once again but instead of a whirr i heard a grinding noise. I removed the starter and to my amazement the housing that covers the spline and teeth on the starter that goes inside of engine housing had a large section broken off. I was able to retrieve a large piece and a few minor ones but when I examined it there is definitely pieces missing and I am sure they are inside the housing under flywheel. Has anyone ever experienced this? If so is it possible to vacuum out the small pieces or will I have to pull off the transmission and back of the engine?

 

[CHARLIE STAGE]

As to the matter of starter's pedigree it is a Made in USA: API MARINE starter. It looks brand new except for broken cowl.

 

[Rich Stidger]

If they are magnetic, you might catch some luck there. But knowing the size of the opening that you are working in, you might have some problems. I would try turning the engine over by hand - slowly - and make sure all the pieces are at the bottom of the flywheel housing. I would check for a covered opening at the bottom of the housing but I suspect you won't find one. Then, in order, I would try a magnet on a flex shaft (available at Harbor Freight, couple dollars), then I would try a small hard-walled vacuum hose McGivered to your shop vac, and finally a flexible "something" with Gorilla tape sticky side out. If all that fails, then I would pull the transmission.

 

[JamesG161]

Has anyone ever experienced this?

Yes!
I had to remove the pulley/flywheel shield to get to it.

I would try turning the engine over by hand - slowly - and make sure all the pieces are at the bottom of the flywheel housing

But the reason my cowl broke was water in my oil. Luckily I found the water source and fixed it before I had a hydro lock.
The "whirr" I got was because of an engine sluggish start and Bendix retracted. Finally the cowl broke.
Every time I checked the oil after a good engine run, no water.
Why?
The engine heat evaporated the water and my oil filter filtered out the salt residue.

It was a "drip ....... drip" and finally after winter 2 months no engine (now i check every week), we discovered the water.
So I suggest checking your oil for water and proper lubricity.
Jim...

 

[CHARLIE STAGE]

Yes!
I had to remove the pulley/flywheel shield to get to it.



But the reason my cowl broke was water in my oil. Luckily I found the water source and fixed it before I had a hydro lock.
The "whirr" I got was because of an engine sluggish start and Bendix retracted. Finally the cowl broke.
Every time I checked the oil after a good engine run, no water.
Why?
The engine heat evaporated the water and my oil filter filtered out the salt residue.

It was a "drip ....... drip" and finally after winter 2 months no engine (now i check every week), we discovered the water.
So I suggest checking your oil for water and proper lubricity.
Jim...

Thanks much on the info JIM and RICH.
I did check the oil and no sign of water in it. I just changed the oil and filter at the end of last season as I always do so I believe it is proper in lubricity. I had changed the fuel filter and bled the engine and the fuel lines prior to this incident. Could that have caused this problem? I have hand turned the engine and other than some barely discernible wear marks on a few teeth and a couple flakes of metal I am sure the pieces are in the bottom and there does not appear to be any further damage. Is there anything else I should look for?
I may try the vacuum idea as I can get a small diameter hose down into the bottom through the starter opening. I would prefer that to taking the engine apart. However I will do what it takes to fix it.
I also sent an e-mail to API MARINE asking for there input and to see if they have had any problems with this particular starter. I will need another starter so I would like to know if I should be looking at another type so that I can avoid this again 4 years from now.

 

[CHARLIE STAGE]

Ok fellow sailors, the vacuum worked some, the sticky side out tape worked some too. i now have a piece that neither will get out. So it seems necessary to take it a part. Which begs the question: can it be done while boat is in the water? I know I will have to back the shaft out some, but is there a way to do it without too much H2O intrusion? This is a new one for me.

 

[seadaddler]

If you can see it maybe try one of those small flex able metal thingy like the magnet thing but has 2 or 3 tinny
fingers that open and close at top with pushing button.
I have used this thing many times with great success and can find in ACE or Auto parts store,keep it on my boat
when I drop a screw or tool down in small hole.
Also one of those flex camera to look see,maybe better than pulling tranny.
Nick

 

[CHARLIE STAGE]

If you can see it maybe try one of those small flex able metal thingy like the magnet thing but has 2 or 3 tinny
fingers that open and close at top with pushing button.
I have used this thing many times with great success and can find in ACE or Auto parts store,keep it on my boat
when I drop a screw or tool down in small hole.
Also one of those flex camera to look see,maybe better than pulling tranny.
Nick

I did use the 4 finger tool that I have but so far it has not worked. I wished I had a way of looking inside while I was trying everything else, I tried a small mirror but that did not work. I may follow that wish and your suggestion and look for such a camera locally. I am tempted to put the starter back on and use it to continuously turn the engine over and use the steel teeth on the wheel to grind down the cast aluminum chunk that is in there to a manageable size piece that I can then extract with the combination of items I have already used. I throw that out for comment as it is a possibility given the density of composition of the two metals. It is an act of utter frustration though!!!!?

 

[justsomeguy]

It is an act of utter frustration though!!!!?

Ah, yep.

 

[mz4wheeler]

I removed the starter and to my amazement the housing that covers the spline and teeth on the starter that goes inside of engine housing had a large section broken off.

Photo? Are you saying teeth (or more) are missing from the ring gear, or is part of the starter mounting system is broken? Either way, you are going to have to remove the transmission to inspect/fix.