I have the M18 Universal Diesel in my Catalina 30 (1988) with the standard instrument panel. We replaced our starter button the other day with a unit from West Marine that was a perfect fit. On the first try at starting the engine (key on, "buzzer" going and glow plug button pressed), I got, zip, nada, nothing. Subsequent attempts though yielded five straight successful starts. That one failed attempt has me concerned now. My question is: Does the ignition switch provide the current pathway for the starter botton to the starter motor? Or can my ignition switch be a culprit for a failed starter button (although new), to not operate? The engine has 465 hours and the starter is not the problem, or so it seems. I thought when that "buzzer" goes off and stays on that the circuit is ready and power is to the starter button. Any advice is always appreciated. Thanks Bob Georgia
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could you try a jumper?
Bob can you do everything for a normal start but instead of pushing the start button use a wire at the back of the switch to jump between the two tabs on the back of the switch - if the starter turns over like that but not when you push the switch - then ask WM for another one, if the starter doesn't turn over when you jump the switch you have a problem unrelated to the switch ie circuit corrosion, ??
Bob can you do everything for a normal start but instead of pushing the start button use a wire at the back of the switch to jump between the two tabs on the back of the switch - if the starter turns over like that but not when you push the switch - then ask WM for another one, if the starter doesn't turn over when you jump the switch you have a problem unrelated to the switch ie circuit corrosion, ??
Solenoid?
Your starter button cannot carry the current required by the starter. It connects to a solenoid that does the switching from the starter battery to the starter. Your button is probably fine, just need a new solenoid (not an expensive item). You can use a heavy electrical cable to jump across the solenoid terminals (Bat/starter) to see if that engages the starter. Let us know what you find out as we are all learning. Good luck.
Your starter button cannot carry the current required by the starter. It connects to a solenoid that does the switching from the starter battery to the starter. Your button is probably fine, just need a new solenoid (not an expensive item). You can use a heavy electrical cable to jump across the solenoid terminals (Bat/starter) to see if that engages the starter. Let us know what you find out as we are all learning. Good luck.
Hmmmm - try easier solution
Bob You should NOT hold the glow plug button down when engaging the starter. Doesn't sound like you have a problem at all (other than maybe the sixth zillion-th person who's been fooled by Universal's incredibly wrong directions for starting the engine!). The way to learn this is to either read this post, read the C34 section in Mainsheet magazine in May 2005 (I think, maybe one issue earlier), or have a friend on your dock who will tell you. The deal is the glow plugs draw a tremendous amount of current. Once they warm up, unless you leave to go have a six pack at a local bar, the piston chambers will be hot enough for some time to allow you to hit start "later," NOT at the same time. Keep the new button and enjoy the season. Stu PS if you think about it, that's exactly what you did after the first try...
Bob You should NOT hold the glow plug button down when engaging the starter. Doesn't sound like you have a problem at all (other than maybe the sixth zillion-th person who's been fooled by Universal's incredibly wrong directions for starting the engine!). The way to learn this is to either read this post, read the C34 section in Mainsheet magazine in May 2005 (I think, maybe one issue earlier), or have a friend on your dock who will tell you. The deal is the glow plugs draw a tremendous amount of current. Once they warm up, unless you leave to go have a six pack at a local bar, the piston chambers will be hot enough for some time to allow you to hit start "later," NOT at the same time. Keep the new button and enjoy the season. Stu PS if you think about it, that's exactly what you did after the first try...
Stu
I have the Universal M-18 in an 1985 O'Day 31. If the glow plug button is not held in the starter button will not function. The power goes through the glow plug button to the starter button. Stupid, but that's the way it is. Maybe the Universals in Catalina's are wired differently but I have been meaning for some time to rewire this.
I have the Universal M-18 in an 1985 O'Day 31. If the glow plug button is not held in the starter button will not function. The power goes through the glow plug button to the starter button. Stupid, but that's the way it is. Maybe the Universals in Catalina's are wired differently but I have been meaning for some time to rewire this.
Glow plugs, starter switch and the Westerbeke 46
Our new-to-us Oday 40 has the set-up where you turn the switch, then push in the glow-plug, then the start switch, for they are wired in series. I do not know why. My friend's O35 with a different engine works the same way. Some duz, some duzn't. My saildrive has a key operation like a car, but sometime you have to push the choke button. Go figure. Bill Coxe, O28/40, New London, CT
Our new-to-us Oday 40 has the set-up where you turn the switch, then push in the glow-plug, then the start switch, for they are wired in series. I do not know why. My friend's O35 with a different engine works the same way. Some duz, some duzn't. My saildrive has a key operation like a car, but sometime you have to push the choke button. Go figure. Bill Coxe, O28/40, New London, CT
Thanks Guys
Looks like a bunch of varying responses on the electrical starting alignment. I went back to the boat last night after allowing a long rest since the weekend to start the engine with the new starter button. I went thru the key-obnoxious buzzer-glow plug-starter button and it turned on quickly. The new starter button may have made a difference! So far so good, but I will look at corrosion on the starter connections, in-line fuse and anywhere else paneling wire can be cleaned as suggested. Soleniod is okay. I still think that the ignition switch is a major source of electrical start issues because those contact points will wear out sooner or later. Thanks everyone. Bob
Looks like a bunch of varying responses on the electrical starting alignment. I went back to the boat last night after allowing a long rest since the weekend to start the engine with the new starter button. I went thru the key-obnoxious buzzer-glow plug-starter button and it turned on quickly. The new starter button may have made a difference! So far so good, but I will look at corrosion on the starter connections, in-line fuse and anywhere else paneling wire can be cleaned as suggested. Soleniod is okay. I still think that the ignition switch is a major source of electrical start issues because those contact points will wear out sooner or later. Thanks everyone. Bob
Ditto W/Richard's Comments
The M-18 I have is the same as Ricard's. Have to have key on, glow plug button depressed before engine start button will activate.
The M-18 I have is the same as Ricard's. Have to have key on, glow plug button depressed before engine start button will activate.
Starter Button.....Universal Eng.
Some Universal engines in the mid 80's were wired to start with the glow button and starter button pressed together. That practice was later discontinued by Seaward, the manufacturer of the inst panel. People complained that they did not like to use two hands to start the engine. I know of a Westerbeke 42b that is wired that way also. Bob, on your engine there should be a 20 amp inline fuse on the red and yellow wire going to the start solenoid. Should be somewhere behind the oil filter. Check the fuse for corrosion. Could be your problem.
Some Universal engines in the mid 80's were wired to start with the glow button and starter button pressed together. That practice was later discontinued by Seaward, the manufacturer of the inst panel. People complained that they did not like to use two hands to start the engine. I know of a Westerbeke 42b that is wired that way also. Bob, on your engine there should be a 20 amp inline fuse on the red and yellow wire going to the start solenoid. Should be somewhere behind the oil filter. Check the fuse for corrosion. Could be your problem.
Bob
Check out this service bulletin. I think item 3 is the real issue. The stock wire (should be yellow/red) is only 16 AWG. Just not big enough to carry the load all the time. Its a fairly easy fix. While you're at it you can change the hot lead on the starter button from coming from the the glow plug button. Just route it to the key switch and you won't have to hold the glow button to crank the starter.
Check out this service bulletin. I think item 3 is the real issue. The stock wire (should be yellow/red) is only 16 AWG. Just not big enough to carry the load all the time. Its a fairly easy fix. While you're at it you can change the hot lead on the starter button from coming from the the glow plug button. Just route it to the key switch and you won't have to hold the glow button to crank the starter.
Thanks Richard
Very useful information Richard. I am installing a new ignition switch this weekend and will ensure all wires are correct. I think carrying a spool of 10 guage in the tool kit is a wise idea! Thanks Bob
Very useful information Richard. I am installing a new ignition switch this weekend and will ensure all wires are correct. I think carrying a spool of 10 guage in the tool kit is a wise idea! Thanks Bob
Original Wiring approach had a purpose
Bob, What about the Glow-Plug Switch? Given the series wiring, couldn't it also be the cause of the 1st attempted non-start? ALSO, Whereas everyone's comments are mostly accurate, before you change the wiring, please remember you may undermine the original reason for the series wiring (key switch to glow-plug switch to starter switch). The switches are in a harsh environment. If after the engine starts, due to salt water/air corrosion, the starter switch were to maintain power to the starter selonoid and keep the starter engaged, it could ruin the starter without you realizing it, until you went to re-start the engine to re-enter your marina, or worse yet, cause a fire (I have read reports of both happening). By the starter switch power being routed through 2 other switches, there is much less chance of this problem ever occuring. On my 1988 Catalina 30 (with the optional M25XP), whereas the starter switch is not in series with the glow-plug switch like yours, there is another light and buzzer on the panel, which is activated whenever the starter circuit is hot. I doubt your panel has this extra safety light/buzzer. So if you change the wiring, you will have less safety than was built into the 1988 panels. Also, as a rule, I always replace both my starter and my glow-plug switches at the same time (every 5 years or so, just because). However, be careful which switches you buy (I use Charles Marine heavy duty ones with a seperately available rubber button cover), also available at West Marine. Remember sometimes you get what you pay for. Therefore, pick the largest amperage rating switch you can find and also get one that has a rubber-cover over the buttons, to further protect internal contacts from corrosion. Hope this helps..
Bob, What about the Glow-Plug Switch? Given the series wiring, couldn't it also be the cause of the 1st attempted non-start? ALSO, Whereas everyone's comments are mostly accurate, before you change the wiring, please remember you may undermine the original reason for the series wiring (key switch to glow-plug switch to starter switch). The switches are in a harsh environment. If after the engine starts, due to salt water/air corrosion, the starter switch were to maintain power to the starter selonoid and keep the starter engaged, it could ruin the starter without you realizing it, until you went to re-start the engine to re-enter your marina, or worse yet, cause a fire (I have read reports of both happening). By the starter switch power being routed through 2 other switches, there is much less chance of this problem ever occuring. On my 1988 Catalina 30 (with the optional M25XP), whereas the starter switch is not in series with the glow-plug switch like yours, there is another light and buzzer on the panel, which is activated whenever the starter circuit is hot. I doubt your panel has this extra safety light/buzzer. So if you change the wiring, you will have less safety than was built into the 1988 panels. Also, as a rule, I always replace both my starter and my glow-plug switches at the same time (every 5 years or so, just because). However, be careful which switches you buy (I use Charles Marine heavy duty ones with a seperately available rubber button cover), also available at West Marine. Remember sometimes you get what you pay for. Therefore, pick the largest amperage rating switch you can find and also get one that has a rubber-cover over the buttons, to further protect internal contacts from corrosion. Hope this helps..
Made the Changes Bill
Thanks Bill. I was up at the Lake (fresh water Lake Lanier north of Atlanta) and installed a new ignition switch (from Seward Products who made the panel),and checked the inline wiring. My panel does have the buzzer like yours and the M-18 panel was shared with the M-25 series setup. I did not nor do I intend to rewire anything on the panel although I did replace an existing wire and fitting showing some chafe when changing out the switch. Everything has worked perfectly since the replacement of the starter and ignition switch. The glow plug will be next. I have no corrosion as the vessel has always been in fresh water. So far so good. I would encourage everyone to keep a spare igntion switch and starter button on their vessels for insurance. Bob
Thanks Bill. I was up at the Lake (fresh water Lake Lanier north of Atlanta) and installed a new ignition switch (from Seward Products who made the panel),and checked the inline wiring. My panel does have the buzzer like yours and the M-18 panel was shared with the M-25 series setup. I did not nor do I intend to rewire anything on the panel although I did replace an existing wire and fitting showing some chafe when changing out the switch. Everything has worked perfectly since the replacement of the starter and ignition switch. The glow plug will be next. I have no corrosion as the vessel has always been in fresh water. So far so good. I would encourage everyone to keep a spare igntion switch and starter button on their vessels for insurance. Bob
Starting problem
I had the same problem a couple of weeks ago. No reaction to turning the start switch, but circuits to and through the solenoid all OK, and jumper from battery to solenoid started her right up. Figured it was one of the several safety cut-outs that keep it from starting when some other switch, lever, toggle, pedal was not in right position. Installed a new starter switch in direct battery to solenoid line and got my mower going fine.
I had the same problem a couple of weeks ago. No reaction to turning the start switch, but circuits to and through the solenoid all OK, and jumper from battery to solenoid started her right up. Figured it was one of the several safety cut-outs that keep it from starting when some other switch, lever, toggle, pedal was not in right position. Installed a new starter switch in direct battery to solenoid line and got my mower going fine.
Its like your setup
Bill My buzzer goes off when the circuit is activated like yours. Their is an other light and buzzer for the low oil alarm. We started the engine with the new ignition switch and starter button about a dozen straight times now and success everytime. Took my dremel and wire wheel and cleaned every wire end in sight and sprayed with cleaner as well. The applied to the starter and solenoid wires. No corrosion anywhere to speak of. Good lessons learned on this one. Thanks Bob Catalina 30 (88) "Breezin II")
Bill My buzzer goes off when the circuit is activated like yours. Their is an other light and buzzer for the low oil alarm. We started the engine with the new ignition switch and starter button about a dozen straight times now and success everytime. Took my dremel and wire wheel and cleaned every wire end in sight and sprayed with cleaner as well. The applied to the starter and solenoid wires. No corrosion anywhere to speak of. Good lessons learned on this one. Thanks Bob Catalina 30 (88) "Breezin II")
Bob, glad to help, Ed, did you check
Ed, assuming you still have the rubber plugs behind the cockpit panel and at the engine -- did you check both for corrosion and remove/clean/replug them just in case? If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you installed a new switch at/near the engine to circumvent the starting circuit in the cockpit panel that was not working. If this is correct, given that I do not know what engine/boat you have, I can't be sure, but there normally aren't extra "safety cut-outs". So I would suggest instead of the extra switch, to find the cause of the problem. My reasoning is that electrical shorts can/have caused fires on boats, so if your starting circuit has failed, it might be only a warning of the real problem or of worse problems to come... good luck...
Ed, assuming you still have the rubber plugs behind the cockpit panel and at the engine -- did you check both for corrosion and remove/clean/replug them just in case? If I understand you correctly, it sounds like you installed a new switch at/near the engine to circumvent the starting circuit in the cockpit panel that was not working. If this is correct, given that I do not know what engine/boat you have, I can't be sure, but there normally aren't extra "safety cut-outs". So I would suggest instead of the extra switch, to find the cause of the problem. My reasoning is that electrical shorts can/have caused fires on boats, so if your starting circuit has failed, it might be only a warning of the real problem or of worse problems to come... good luck...
Starter by-pass
Bill N., I was kidding. True story, and your advice is very appropriate, but please note the third word from the end of my post. I wouldn't be so cavalier with my boat.
Bill N., I was kidding. True story, and your advice is very appropriate, but please note the third word from the end of my post. I wouldn't be so cavalier with my boat.
Universal starting problem
Thanks Rich for sharing that great info from Universal! I've been fooling around with our M20 for awhile now - almost replaced the starter solonoid, but I noticed the same thing as most of the rest of you: a direct jumper starts it every time. So now it's off to WM for a new switch (or two!). I think I'll do the full Monty and upgrade the wire to 10AWG while I'm at it. Thanks again... Jim Maroldo Ocean Gate, NJ
Thanks Rich for sharing that great info from Universal! I've been fooling around with our M20 for awhile now - almost replaced the starter solonoid, but I noticed the same thing as most of the rest of you: a direct jumper starts it every time. So now it's off to WM for a new switch (or two!). I think I'll do the full Monty and upgrade the wire to 10AWG while I'm at it. Thanks again... Jim Maroldo Ocean Gate, NJ
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