Standing Rigging Specs and Sta-Lock Fittings Questions

robertgainer · Sep 8, 2004

Stephen said,
I'm getting ready to replace my standing rigging. Can anyone tell me what
size wire is recommended, and if oversizing makes any sense? Also, I'm
thinking about using Sta-Lock terminals. Does anyone have experience using
these fittings on their wire? If so, are they easy to use for the
do-it-yourselfer?

Stephen,
Before I took the Vega to England with Arne Moser I replaced some of the
wires and the spreader bases.

The mechanical ends are all about the same. The poured socket ends that use
epoxy are not as easy to use and you can?t inspect or reuse; burning out the
resin is not my idea of reusable. I have done a few as replacement parts and
would not select them myself. The fitting as sold by the Loos Company is
made of 304 stainless and will acquire surface rust. The resin is not a
standard thing and you must only use their resin. I don?t know of any other
brand that may use better stainless.

The Sta-lok, machined from 316 stainless uses a wedge and former, Norseman
does not. I prefer the Norseman, also machined from 316 stainless bar stock.
It has fewer parts and is a little simpler to use. I also think it?s a nicer
looking fitting. The Norseman is the only one to pick if you are using
Dyform wire. I have to add though that Sta-lok in several tests did better
than the Norseman. Some pull tests were done at Hull University in Scotland
for a manufacturer of swage less fittings. That was Hi-Mod and they didn?t
make much of the results, it didn?t make them look to good. Quality Testing
Inc in Baton Rough, LA did some testing on Norseman and they failed at 69
and 80 percent of the wire strength. The benchmark swage fitting they used
failed at 107 percent. Suncore came out very well in the testing but I can?t
find any numbers now. This does not bother me because the wire is sized to
reduce the stretch in the rig as much as anything else and the fitting does
not have to hold the rated strength of the wire to be efficient.

The bolt together swager is a nicopress tool not a swager. DO NOT DO
STANDING RIGING WITH IT. I want to say that again DO NOT use it for standing
rigging. It is for lifeline fitting and halyards. It doesn?t work for
lifelines but is OK for halyards. It will hole only a fraction of the rated
strength of wire and it was never intended for 1X19 wire. I have seen people
get hurt when the mast came down after using them. A Nicopress is lighter
then the same size swage. But it is not strong enough for standing rigging.

Suncor is new to me, I have not used one but the testing looks very good.
Hi-Mod is a very attractive fitting that looks to be the easiest one to fit
up. I want to try one.

The only trick to using the swage less fittings is cutting the end square
and clean, no rough edges. Fill the fitting with 5200 to keep out the water
and read the directions.

I have two swaggers, Loos made one and the other is from WireTeknik. This
lets me swage fittings from 1/16? up to 5/16?. The swage fitting is cheaper
and with a 316 type stainless fitting has the same service life as the wire.
Work hardening is not an issue with the hydraulic machine; it reduces the
shank to the required diameter in one pass on wire up to 5/16". I run the
terminal though twice once to swage it and once at 90 degrees to remove the
flash on the shank from the first pass.

The roll swager which I also use is in my opinion not suitable for standing
rigging larger than 1/8" because of the work hardening and the fact that the
harder stainless I use puts too much stress on the machine. Its great for
lifelines, halyards and smaller wire. If you cut a swage in half length wise
you will see the swage fitting metal has flowed into the space between the
strands and the core has fused to the outer strands.

The aircraft use MS style swage fittings. The MS fittings have a smaller pin
then the marine swage fittings and don't weigh as much. MS fittings have the
same outside dimension as marine fittings so the dies can do either type. MS
swage fitting have pins that are not sized right for the Vega.

On my boat I would only use a swage fitting and not use or reuse a swageless
one.

The wire is sized to reduce stretch and be strong enough to hold the mast. I
don?t think that you gain anything useful by increasing the diameter. This
is especially true if the size of the pins in the tangs and chainplates are
not changed. The pin will still hold only the load that the original wire
was designed for. There is not enough metal in the tangs and chainplates to
drill them out so if you are increasing the size of wire you will need to
replace all the fittings also. I would just replace the wire with the same
size. If you are in my neck of the woods you are welcome to run your wire
though my swager anytime you want.
All the best;
Robert Gainer

bbach1949 · Sep 8, 2004

Steve: I replaced all my rigging 3 years ago and am extremely happy with
what I did. I researched it very thoroughly at that time. StaLoks are great,
easy to use and the favorite of many riggers. They look good and are very well
machined. I used 3/16 inch type 316 Loos wire. Also replaced the turnbuckles
with Hayn bronze 3/8 inch. All pins are now 3/8 inch. The backstay split is
terminated with what StaLok calls toggle forks. I added a triangle plate at
the split which required a few extra StaLok eyes, but good to know they're
there if I need to jury rig.

I bought all my rigging through Cascade Yachts in Portland, OR, near where I
live. They buy their stuff from Sailing Services (who also sells direct, but
at higher prices).

Don't go bigger on your rigging. Vegas are not real stiff boats and don't
put outrageous loads on the rigging. The mast is short and really somewhat
overstayed, and you can't say the boat is over canvassed. If you need to be
convinced, see Brion Toss's book The Riggers Apprentice and do the calculations.
3/16 is plenty.

I can go on and on, but who would listen? Bill Bach, V 1071 Calimera

resiploc · Sep 9, 2004

Stephen DeMont s_demont@... wrote:Hi,

I'm getting ready to replace my standing rigging. Can anyone tell me what size wire is recommended, and if oversizing makes any sense? Also, I'm thinking about using Sta-Lock terminals. Does anyone have experience using these fittings on their wire? If so, are they easy to use for the do-it-yourselfer?

Thanks,
Steve DeMont
"Erendira"
Vega #2942
Seattle, WA

Stephen, I replaced my rigging in 2003 with 3/16" 1x19 ss wire from Rigging Only. I used swaged eyes at the mast and Sta-Lok stud fitings going to new turnbuckles on the bottom. Assembly was easy. I used standard Vega sizes. I lost the mast when I snagged the upper starboard shroud on a day beacon. Insurance fixed it. Now I have an almost new set of standing rigging for a Vega for sale. You would need one new starboard upper shroud to complete the rigging. Please contact me if you wish more specifics. E-mail or call 361 332 9699. Good Luck' Doug Payea
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT

s_demont · Sep 9, 2004

BBach1949@... wrote:Steve: I replaced all my rigging 3 years ago and am extremely happy with
what I did. I researched it very thoroughly at that time. StaLoks are great,
easy to use and the favorite of many riggers. They look good and are very well
machined. I used 3/16 inch type 316 Loos wire. Also replaced the turnbuckles
with Hayn bronze 3/8 inch. All pins are now 3/8 inch. The backstay split is
terminated with what StaLok calls toggle forks. I added a triangle plate at
the split which required a few extra StaLok eyes, but good to know they're
there if I need to jury rig.

I bought all my rigging through Cascade Yachts in Portland, OR, near where I
live. They buy their stuff from Sailing Services (who also sells direct, but
at higher prices).

Don't go bigger on your rigging. Vegas are not real stiff boats and don't
put outrageous loads on the rigging. The mast is short and really somewhat
overstayed, and you can't say the boat is over canvassed. If you need to be
convinced, see Brion Toss's book The Riggers Apprentice and do the calculations.
3/16 is plenty.

I can go on and on, but who would listen? Bill Bach, V 1071 CalimeraYahoo! Groups Sponsor
Get unlimited calls to

U.S./Canada

s_demont · Sep 9, 2004

BBach1949@... wrote:Steve: I replaced all my rigging 3 years ago and am extremely happy with
what I did. I researched it very thoroughly at that time. StaLoks are great,
easy to use and the favorite of many riggers. They look good and are very well
machined. I used 3/16 inch type 316 Loos wire. Also replaced the turnbuckles
with Hayn bronze 3/8 inch. All pins are now 3/8 inch. The backstay split is
terminated with what StaLok calls toggle forks. I added a triangle plate at
the split which required a few extra StaLok eyes, but good to know they're
there if I need to jury rig.

I bought all my rigging through Cascade Yachts in Portland, OR, near where I
live. They buy their stuff from Sailing Services (who also sells direct, but
at higher prices).

Don't go bigger on your rigging. Vegas are not real stiff boats and don't
put outrageous loads on the rigging. The mast is short and really somewhat
overstayed, and you can't say the boat is over canvassed. If you need to be
convinced, see Brion Toss's book The Riggers Apprentice and do the calculations.
3/16 is plenty.

I can go on and on, but who would listen? Bill Bach, V 1071 CalimeraYahoo! Groups Sponsor
Get unlimited calls to

U.S./Canada

s_demont · Sep 9, 2004

Doug, Bill, and Robert,

Thanks for your responses. They were very helpful.

1. Doug, I'm going to pass on your offer on buying your rigging. But I really want to learn how to rig my Vega. I've owned her seven years, and the standing rigging is the one thing I've been reticent about, and really want to learn how put it all together myself. Thanks anyway, I appreciate your offer.

2. Okay, Bill's idea of bronze turnbuckles works for me. I saw some at Fisheries Supply here in Seattle, and was thinking of doing the same thing. I looked at the Hayn catalog and will shop around for the 3/8 with 3/8 pins model. Maybe I can get them cheaper somewhere here.

3. I've decided to go with the Sta-Lok setup for the top and bottom parts of the wire rope. Does anyone see a problem with using Sta-Loks for the ends that connect to the mast-top? Bill, which Sta-Loks did you use? I'm assuming you used the Standard Sta-Lok Eye terminal for the deck-level end of the wire?

4. Also, when measuring the length of the wire, can I use the wire that I have now as templates? (The mast was unstepped in Alameda, CA before I had the boat trucked up here, and the wire is neatly coiled and labeled accordingly in my cabin.) I guess this is the biggest question. Has the wire strectched that much during over the last seven to 10 years to make a difference when taking my measurements?

5. Oh yeah, I found a site that has instructions using Sta-Lok terminals: Sailing Services - Rigging, Lifelines, Winches, Furling Systems, Supplies, Ropes Just and FYI.

Thanks,
Steve DeMont
"Erendira"
Vega 2947
Seatte, WA

Robert Gainer robert_gainer@... wrote:
Stephen said,
I'm getting ready to replace my standing rigging. Can anyone tell me what
size wire is recommended, and if oversizing makes any sense? Also, I'm
thinking about using Sta-Lock terminals. Does anyone have experience using
these fittings on their wire? If so, are they easy to use for the
do-it-yourselfer?

Stephen,
Before I took the Vega to England with Arne Moser I replaced some of the
wires and the spreader bases.

The mechanical ends are all about the same. The poured socket ends that use
epoxy are not as easy to use and you can?t inspect or reuse; burning out the
resin is not my idea of reusable. I have done a few as replacement parts and
would not select them myself. The fitting as sold by the Loos Company is
made of 304 stainless and will acquire surface rust. The resin is not a
standard thing and you must only use their resin. I don?t know of any other
brand that may use better stainless.

The Sta-lok, machined from 316 stainless uses a wedge and former, Norseman
does not. I prefer the Norseman, also machined from 316 stainless bar stock.
It has fewer parts and is a little simpler to use. I also think it?s a nicer
looking fitting. The Norseman is the only one to pick if you are using
Dyform wire. I have to add though that Sta-lok in several tests did better
than the Norseman. Some pull tests were done at Hull University in Scotland
for a manufacturer of swage less fittings. That was Hi-Mod and they didn?t
make much of the results, it didn?t make them look to good. Quality Testing
Inc in Baton Rough, LA did some testing on Norseman and they failed at 69
and 80 percent of the wire strength. The benchmark swage fitting they used
failed at 107 percent. Suncore came out very well in the testing but I can?t
find any numbers now. This does not bother me because the wire is sized to
reduce the stretch in the rig as much as anything else and the fitting does
not have to hold the rated strength of the wire to be efficient.

The bolt together swager is a nicopress tool not a swager. DO NOT DO
STANDING RIGING WITH IT. I want to say that again DO NOT use it for standing
rigging. It is for lifeline fitting and halyards. It doesn?t work for
lifelines but is OK for halyards. It will hole only a fraction of the rated
strength of wire and it was never intended for 1X19 wire. I have seen people
get hurt when the mast came down after using them. A Nicopress is lighter
then the same size swage. But it is not strong enough for standing rigging.

Suncor is new to me, I have not used one but the testing looks very good.
Hi-Mod is a very attractive fitting that looks to be the easiest one to fit
up. I want to try one.

The only trick to using the swage less fittings is cutting the end square
and clean, no rough edges. Fill the fitting with 5200 to keep out the water
and read the directions.

I have two swaggers, Loos made one and the other is from WireTeknik. This
lets me swage fittings from 1/16? up to 5/16?. The swage fitting is cheaper
and with a 316 type stainless fitting has the same service life as the wire.
Work hardening is not an issue with the hydraulic machine; it reduces the
shank to the required diameter in one pass on wire up to 5/16". I run the
terminal though twice once to swage it and once at 90 degrees to remove the
flash on the shank from the first pass.

The roll swager which I also use is in my opinion not suitable for standing
rigging larger than 1/8" because of the work hardening and the fact that the
harder stainless I use puts too much stress on the machine. Its great for
lifelines, halyards and smaller wire. If you cut a swage in half length wise
you will see the swage fitting metal has flowed into the space between the
strands and the core has fused to the outer strands.

The aircraft use MS style swage fittings. The MS fittings have a smaller pin
then the marine swage fittings and don't weigh as much. MS fittings have the
same outside dimension as marine fittings so the dies can do either type. MS
swage fitting have pins that are not sized right for the Vega.

On my boat I would only use a swage fitting and not use or reuse a swageless
one.

The wire is sized to reduce stretch and be strong enough to hold the mast. I
don?t think that you gain anything useful by increasing the diameter. This
is especially true if the size of the pins in the tangs and chainplates are
not changed. The pin will still hold only the load that the original wire
was designed for. There is not enough metal in the tangs and chainplates to
drill them out so if you are increasing the size of wire you will need to
replace all the fittings also. I would just replace the wire with the same
size. If you are in my neck of the woods you are welcome to run your wire
though my swager anytime you want.
All the best;
Robert Gainer
Yahoo! Groups Links

robertgainer · Sep 9, 2004

Stephen,
If the old wires were the right length you can use them for measurements.
Don?t forget to allow for the stretch in the new wires. You will have to
make the new ones shorter then the old ones. When you change the turnbuckles
make sure that you take into account any difference in the length of the new
and the old ones. They are not necessarily the same length.
All the best,
Robert Gainer

s_demont · Sep 9, 2004

Thanks, Robert.

Would the difference in wire-stretch from old to new be within a few fractions of an inch? Or do I buy the wire sized to my originals and cut them back when I fit the Sta-Loks?

Steve

Robert Gainer robert_gainer@... wrote:
Stephen,
If the old wires were the right length you can use them for measurements.
Don?t forget to allow for the stretch in the new wires. You will have to
make the new ones shorter then the old ones. When you change the turnbuckles
make sure that you take into account any difference in the length of the new
and the old ones. They are not necessarily the same length.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
Yahoo! Groups Links

robertgainer · Sep 9, 2004

Steve,
I sat down and figured it out and it?s too small a number to worry about. On
the headstay (the longest wire in the rig) its less then 5/16". I was
surprised at that, but the wire is not very long compared to the modern rigs
and the loading is very small. If you want to figure it out for your self
this is the formula.

Stretch = (W x L) / (E x A)
where:
W = Applied Load ( kN )
L = Cable length ( mm )
E = Strand Modulus ( kN/mm2)
A = Area of Cable = (D2 x pi) / 4 (where D= Dia of cable mm)

for 1X 19 wire E = 107.5 kN / mm 2
for Dyform wire E = 133.7 kN / mm2

Good luck and all the best,
Robert Gainer

s_demont · Sep 9, 2004

Thanks again, Robert.

Yeah, I didn't think it would be much. I think what I'll do is order the wire against the lengths, cut the wire a couple 1/16s of an inch from there, allowing for the lengths of the new turnbuckles and all.

Actually, I'm looking forward to this project. It'll make me a little more self-sufficient as a sailor.

Steve

Robert Gainer robert_gainer@... wrote:
Steve,
I sat down and figured it out and it?s too small a number to worry about. On
the headstay (the longest wire in the rig) its less then 5/16". I was
surprised at that, but the wire is not very long compared to the modern rigs
and the loading is very small. If you want to figure it out for your self
this is the formula.

Stretch = (W x L) / (E x A)
where:
W = Applied Load ( kN )
L = Cable length ( mm )
E = Strand Modulus ( kN/mm2)
A = Area of Cable = (D2 x pi) / 4 (where D= Dia of cable mm)

for 1X 19 wire E = 107.5 kN / mm 2
for Dyform wire E = 133.7 kN / mm2

Good luck and all the best,
Robert Gainer

bbach1949 · Sep 9, 2004

Steve: I used StaLok eyes both top and bottom so I can end for end the stays
in a couple of years. The only problem is that the pins on the top of the
mast are all 5/16 inch. I bored out the cast toggles on the forestay and
backstay to 3/8 - lots of meat to do so. I ended up making new tangs for the uppers
out of 316 stainless that are heavier than the originals. The tangs for the
lowers can be safely enlarged to 3/8 inch, but do it on the upper and inner
surfaces of the holes so as to keep the full metal depth. If all this sounds
like too much work, just go with 5/16 pins like the original. I just don't like
a 5/16 pin in a 3/8 hole, though the Swedes didn't seem to have a problem
with doing so in 1971. I have machining capabilities, so it was pretty simple,
but I wouldn't want to pay someone to do what I did.

Now a question for the group - does anyone have a good galvanized trailer for
sale? I'm looking at a new one from Triad, but it's pretty expensive to get
one to the West Coast.

Bill Bach, V 1071

bhofler · Sep 10, 2004

Hi Bill...I don't have a trailer but I hope that means that you intend to bring 1071 north in the future...

Cheers

Brian

bbach1949 · Sep 10, 2004

Yes, Brian. That and Sea of Cortez. Bill

vega1860 · Sep 10, 2004

Good advice Bill. I replaced the rigging on Lealea several years ago the same way. I thought I posted a detailed account here but it didn't come up when I searced "rigging".

StaLok fittings, 3/16 inch 316 stainless wire, bronze turnbuckles and don't forget, toggles. Measure twice, cut once.

Chuck

BBach1949@... wrote:

vega1860 · Sep 10, 2004

I had the help of "The Old Rigger": "It ain't rocket science ya know. Take off the old shrouds, lay 'em out on the warf here and cut the new wire the same length."

He had me drive two large nails into the warf and put the eye of the old rigging on one, then stretch it out and nail down the other end. then I put an eye fitting (StaLok) on the end of the new wire, put the eye over the second nail next to the end of the old shroud and stretch the new wire out, mark and cut then install the fitting. If you are adding toggles that were not there before, be sure to measure the toggles and subtract, also compare old and new turnbuckles and take into account any differnces. I didn't and had to cut four inches off the bottom of the shrouds after the mast was back up. (Not a problem with the StaLoks)

I was replacing what I believe to be the original rigging which would have been more than 25 years old. Stretch was negligible (As my rigger friend said it would be and could have been taken up easily by the turnbuckle. The problem I had was that I added toggles and changed to different turnbuckles which added length to the overall measurement.

One more thing, When we tuned the rig, Frank, the old rigger, set it up what I would have called very loose. When I asked him about it he asked me it I were going to race. I told hom no and he replied that, if I weren't going to race, it was better to set up the rigging with less tension because of the deck stepped mast. He noted, correctly, that overly tight standing rigging would put too much pressure on the mast step and cause the support beam to displace which, as we all know, is a much talked about problem with the Vega.

ChuckStephen DeMont s_demont@... wrote:

s_demont · Sep 10, 2004

Great tips from everyone. Ireally appreciate your knowledge.

Now that Chuck has mentioned it, does anyone know how much tension I should give the rig? I agree that too much tension would bring about too much compresion on the step support. If you were using a tension gauge, what would be a good setting.

Thanks,
Steve

vega1860@... wrote:
I had the help of "The Old Rigger": "It ain't rocket science ya know. Take off the old shrouds, lay 'em out on the warf here and cut the new wire the same length."

He had me drive two large nails into the warf and put the eye of the old rigging on one, then stretch it out and nail down the other end. then I put an eye fitting (StaLok) on the end of the new wire, put the eye over the second nail next to the end of the old shroud and stretch the new wire out, mark and cut then install the fitting. If you are adding toggles that were not there before, be sure to measure the toggles and subtract, also compare old and new turnbuckles and take into account any differnces. I didn't and had to cut four inches off the bottom of the shrouds after the mast was back up. (Not a problem with the StaLoks)

I was replacing what I believe to be the original rigging which would have been more than 25 years old. Stretch was negligible (As my rigger friend said it would be and could have been taken up easily by the turnbuckle. The problem I had was that I added toggles and changed to different turnbuckles which added length to the overall measurement.

One more thing, When we tuned the rig, Frank, the old rigger, set it up what I would have called very loose. When I asked him about it he asked me it I were going to race. I told hom no and he replied that, if I weren't going to race, it was better to set up the rigging with less tension because of the deck stepped mast. He noted, correctly, that overly tight standing rigging would put too much pressure on the mast step and cause the support beam to displace which, as we all know, is a much talked about problem with the Vega.

ChuckStephen DeMont s_demont@... wrote:

s_demont · Sep 15, 2004

Hi,

I just wanted to thank everyone for their input on this subject. Although I wanted to build the rigging myself, I ended up taking it all into Fisheries Supply here in Seattle for their rigger to put together. New 3/16" SS 316 wire with swaged terminals, and Hayn Bronze turnbuckles. Should have them early next week. I'm pretty excited, can't wait to finish painting the cockpit and nonskid, stepping the mast, and getting her back in the water.

My Vega has been out of the water since May, since I brought her up here from Alameda, CA. Needless to say, I missed most of the sailing season up here. But no regrets, I was glad to have her out of the water to do the refinishing on the hull and deck. My S.O. is more disappointed about missing the season than I am: "You need to get that boat back in the water. You've had more than enough time to paint her and whatnot. Pay someone to do the rigging and get her in the water by October. You promised you'd have your boat back in the water by August." Bless her heart. She's not complaining about how overbudget I am on the project. It's not everyday that a man can have an amicable relationship between his wife and mistress!

Thanks again,
Steve DeMont
"Erendira"
Vega 2947
Seattle, WA

P.S. I just got my slip in Shiloshole Marina, dock P. I noticed two other Vegas on the north side of the dock. One is Judy and Ken's, I think. Who owns the other?

Stephen DeMont s_demont@... wrote:
Great tips from everyone. Ireally appreciate your knowledge.

Now that Chuck has mentioned it, does anyone know how much tension I should give the rig? I agree that too much tension would bring about too much compresion on the step support. If you were using a tension gauge, what would be a good setting.

Thanks,
Steve

vega1860@... wrote:
I had the help of "The Old Rigger": "It ain't rocket science ya know. Take off the old shrouds, lay 'em out on the warf here and cut the new wire the same length."

He had me drive two large nails into the warf and put the eye of the old rigging on one, then stretch it out and nail down the other end. then I put an eye fitting (StaLok) on the end of the new wire, put the eye over the second nail next to the end of the old shroud and stretch the new wire out, mark and cut then install the fitting. If you are adding toggles that were not there before, be sure to measure the toggles and subtract, also compare old and new turnbuckles and take into account any differnces. I didn't and had to cut four inches off the bottom of the shrouds after the mast was back up. (Not a problem with the StaLoks)

I was replacing what I believe to be the original rigging which would have been more than 25 years old. Stretch was negligible (As my rigger friend said it would be and could have been taken up easily by the turnbuckle. The problem I had was that I added toggles and changed to different turnbuckles which added length to the overall measurement.

One more thing, When we tuned the rig, Frank, the old rigger, set it up what I would have called very loose. When I asked him about it he asked me it I were going to race. I told hom no and he replied that, if I weren't going to race, it was better to set up the rigging with less tension because of the deck stepped mast. He noted, correctly, that overly tight standing rigging would put too much pressure on the mast step and cause the support beam to displace which, as we all know, is a much talked about problem with the Vega.

ChuckStephen DeMont wrote: