Stanchions and the the leaks

[Chris Gonzales]

Did someone say butyl tape?

On my C30 (now history) I installed a new flat traveller and opening head port over butyl tape. This is the same stuff they use on RVs for windows and exterior seams.When I read the original post I thought I would suggest using it for stanchions as well. I didn't, though, because I have never used it there. It seems to me that it would work well, though.There is a lot in the archives about butyl tape.Chris

 

[R.W.Landau]

Butyl Tape

Chris, I would not use butyl tape on anything but my plastic ports. I have tried on two boats to remove these port after someone decided to adhear them. I have cracked two out of 8. One on each boat of course.I found that the tape works pretty good on the ports. Only one season so far.Justin, I respect your input and I think I will try some 5200 on my stantions next time. I have them in Life caulk (which was always my previous choice) but on the stantions , I am just was not sure if I had a good seal. It is not leaking through into the cabin, but I don't know if it is leaking into the core.Crap........now I guess I have one more project before spring. Thanks Justin..........r.w.landau

 

[Stu Jackson]

This is as much fun as Cetol

Amazing differences of opinion.Isn't it great we're not all on the same boat?If I want to adhere something, I use liquid nails.If I want to seal something, I use a sealant.Still don't understand the need to GLUE something that is supposed to be SEALed.BTW, running a guitar string to "un" bed 5200 sure doesn't work on non-skid bumps, especially those that are under the stanCHions.The beauty of this forum is that we can continue to respect the differences of opinions expressed.Keep up the good work, and just don't use Super Glue, your tongue will never recover...

 

[Steve Dion]

Buytl tape vs caulk.

I have got to tell y'all my buddie with a CHERUBINI had tried to seal his stanchion with all of those other sealants and finally used butyl. The first application was under a stanchion. This is the one that EVERYONE grabs to get aboard his boat. No leak in two years. Now his track on the self tending jib has started to leak. He filled the bolt holes with life caulk and put a couple of strips of butyl under the track. We have had over 7" of rain in less than a week and still no leak.Now the real test of time is how long will it last?The orignal Cherubinis had Butyl tape to seal the deck to hull joint. I think you will find that it has lasted the test of time. The real difference is the resistance to UV. Butyl is used on windshieds on automobiles, windows and many other applications.

 

[Dave]

Sealant Alternatives

The primary need for sealant is because boat manufacturers core boat decks with materials that ROT when exposed to moisture. Now since a boat is always exposed to moisture this seems like a pretty stupid practice...unless you want boats to slowly deteriorate so you can sell new boats.So they start with a material that rots, then they drill holes in it to make sure if it leaks it will rot. The Answer to this problem is DON'T HAVE CORE WHERE THRU BOLTS GO!! This requires drilling oversize holes filling with epoxy , drilling new holes and then bedding down the fittings. Since there are hundreds of holes on a boat this is a LOT OF WORK. Therefore boat builders don't do it! If the holes are prepared this way you still don't want a leak but not to protect the core, rather so your interior doesn't get dripped on.Another option is take a small nail and bend the end at 90 degrees. Put the nail in a variable speed drill and go in the hole and use it to remove the core material in the hole, then use epoxy to replace the material removed from the core, effectively sealing the holes. This method makes sure the original hole locations and sizes are retained.

 

[Steve Dion]

Not alway true on Hunters.

David:This is not always true on the Hunters. Many of the hardware mounting areas have aluminum backing plates for the mounting of hardware. There are exceptions to this of course.I do not think that most owners would be very happy with a boat that is solid glass (our boats would be like a West Sail, 30,000lb 30 footer). This would add a tremendous amount of weight above the water line. This is one of the major differences in the new Hunters vs. the original boats. They have removed a lot of weight from above the water lines. They have done this by using modern designs for chain plates, soft headliners, drop in pans and many other methods.The hulls of the boats (Hunters) that are built today are the same as they where in the 70's. The only real difference is the new materials that are used to prevent blisters. You are absolutely correct in the method that should be used to attach hardware through any cored area. Remove the coring, fill with epoxy and redrill the holes. There are several places on the newer boats where sealants/glues are used in areas that are not cored. Most of the Hunters (and I must assume the other mfg too) attach the deck to hull with some type of a sealant (probably 5200) and some type of fasteners. The liners are attached to the hull with these modern sealants too.I would suggest that everyone puts reseating all of the hardware on their boats things-to-do list. If you have epoxy in the holes, you are fine if you do not, you should clean out the holes and fill with epoxy. Redrill the holes and caulk with the material of choice.This is a simple thing to do and can save you a LOT of money and agravation down the line or help you sell your boat when the time comes.

 

[Captain John Edwards]

My oh my

I appreciate all the feed back. However, back when this boat was built ie 1978 they/we did not have the products then that we have now for sealing and adhearing.I have no problem that i have permeantly stuck my stanchions to the boat. I strongly feel that I should adhere these stanchions to the boat and update the bolting with larger nuts and washers to have more grab and greater displacement of force when a stanchion gets a load on it. Please remember I posted this because of what I found happening under the stanchions and to the toe rail. If any of you reading this just take the time to 5200, 4200, butyl or life caulk your stanchions it could save your life or someone elses. These bolts of ours where rusted where the went inbetween the deck and bent. Also it has been recommended by surveyors builders insurance etc to do a rebedding program every 4-6 years.I sail extensively around cape cod all year round. the boat only comes out 2x's a year for washing down and or bottom painting. I live for heavy weather sailing and by God I want strong stuck stanchions. And no leaks. SO DO IT!

 

[Peggie Hall/Head Mistress]

Important to use the right product for the job

I think all of you will find the information at this site worth the time to read...even to bookmark.

 

[Dave]

Steve D - My two cents

Steve,I am merely suggesting that boat builders could design the decks in a way that they have waterproof inserts in areas where through bolts are intended. I did not intend that they make boats solid glass.What would be wrong with having a small area where stantions are mounted that is solid glass for instance, or a core material in that area that is non absorbant. Also where turning blocks are mounted on deck and tracks, hatch screws, etc. I am just suggesting that for a little more money the boats could be made to eliminate this problem of rotten cores but then less boats would be produced as they would last longer.Fair windsdave

 

[Tom]

Dave, I think you find alot of the newer boats

do have solid glass in those areas where the thru deck hardware goes, for the specific reason that you don't saturate the core. Sometimes a slight leak is inevitable over time and no matter what adhesive/sealant you use high stress areas might need rebedding every 10-15 years. I do know on my '99 C36 that Catalina sealed the exposed core by sealing it with an epoxy. I know this because I had to re-seal leaks on some opening hatches.BTW I used Life-Seal and so far so good. Its a combination Polysulfide & Silicone (best of both worlds). The reason I like the Life-Seal (which is a little more difficult to find) is because it flexes very well (just like the rubbery stuff in your bathroom) but its adhesive properties are as good as Life-Caulk and 4200 ....So I find its the best of both worlds.....

 

[Steve Dion]

You are right.

Dave:I agree with you. It would not practical to expect most production mfg to over drill the holes etc etc. It would be a good idea to do exactly what you are talking about.On the Hunters they imbed a plate of aluminum that can be drilled and taped so these area are typically NOT a problem.On our Hunter (1985) they did not have a problem with the stanchions either because they were integrated into the toe rail. The problem here was the fact that the stachions actually ended up slightly outboard. This can sometimes be a problem if you are tied up next to a pier or a sea wall because the stanchions can come in contact with other objects. But they do not leak.I think that the idea of laying up an area of solid glass in the bow, the stanchions, pulpits and maybe the areas where winchs are mounted would be an excellent idea. My only question is why don't they think of these things. I will tell you that the used boat market is very important to a company like Hunter. They want these boats to hold up and retain their value. This is a very important part of their company stategy.

 

[Jim Hague]

Thanks, Peggy. Nuf' said? nm

nm

 

[R.W.Landau]

Lexan and plexiglass

Peggy, thanks for the reference material.I have yet to find something that is recommended for bedding pvc, plexiglass, and lexan.Most of the older O'Days had the pvc window jambs that are attacked by solvent based products. Can anyone out there come up with info like Peggy did on PVC, lexan, and plexiglass?r.w.landau

 

[Tom]

RW Try LIfe-Seal

Take a look at the Westmarine website I posted on link below.As you can see by the chart listed Life-Seal is one of the few adhesive/sealants that are recommended (Very Good in most cases)for most materials....The only thing its really not recommended for is Deck Seams (Teak, Other Woods) & Underwater Wooden Hull Seams. It is the only one highly rated for ABS Lexan Plastics.I have used it on plastics and never saw a problem ( Do NOT use Life-Caulk )Somewhere else they list some rules to go by like:1) Polysulfides-Perhaps the most versatile sealants available. Two-part polysulfides have long been popular as caulking material for teak decks. One-part polysulfides are easier to use and just as durable, but slower to cure. Both bond well to most surfaces. Oily woods (such as teak) should be primed before using polysulfides. Not for use on plastic, as they will melt it. 2) Polyurethanes-Recommended for permanent bonding because of its enormous adhesive strength. Good for hull/deck joints and bonding thru-hull fittings. Incompatible with ABS and Lexan. 3) Silicone-Very elastic and highly chemical resistant. Excellent insulation barrier between dissimilar metals. Not as strong in adhesive strength as polysulfide or polyurethane. Compatible with plastics.Also go to 3M's site (www.mmm.com) and search thier different products. They have VERY detailed & scientific information but its a little hard to navigate your way through. Try here first (http://products.3m.com/usenglish/home_leisure/home_leisure.jhtml?powurl=GS77R8JLT2beGSHCV1ZFXKgeGST1T4S9TCgvGSCN37Z7NMgl )

 

[LaDonna Bubak - Catalina Owners]

Ask five sailors...

Ask five sailors on their opinion and you'll get six different answers! I guess it's really a matter of using what works for you. I've only had problems using 5200 for bedding, haven't had anything bed in 4200 leak to date but have with 5200 (and then removal was a bear & half!).Anyway, Steve you can be my partner in crime anytime! Have a great holiday!!LaDonna

 

[Justin - O'day Owners' Web]

Thanks Peggie

Good article, Peggy. Thank you. It conflicts with what the 3M guy said but makes tons of sense. Guess its time to start using 4200. Have a good holiday -Justin

 

[Steve Dion]

He was a saleman!

Justin:With all due respect. 3M salemen are selling their products. You can only base your opinion on what these people are trying to sell you.The other problem that we encounter as boaters is the availability of quality products. West Marine like most retailers today look at how much product they can sell the the margins. They are not looking after us.Other mfg such as Dow, GE and Sika make products that are as good or better than 3M, but we see very little of these products on their shelves. The best way to determine which product is best for your needs is to speak with the people that use these products every day. They make their living doing this stuff and have to redo them when a product fails.

 

[David]

Bedding and adhesion

Steve if you read the link Peggie provided you will understand the difference between polysulfides, silicones, and polyurethanes. The difference is in the type of product not the manufacturer. Polyurethanes ( 5200 being one) provide adhesion which is what Captain John said he wanted in the first place!

 

[Steve Dion]

Everyone can use any product that they want!

David:Everyone can use any product that they want. Our point is that 5200 is/was not the best product for the job!"Polyurethane is not the "ideal" bedding and seam-sealing compound. While polyurethane adhesive sealants are not "glass-like" in rigidity, a little more flexibility would be desirable for use in working seams, although their superior adhesion makes this problem more of a theoretical than a practical one. Polyurethane adhesive sealants are definitely not for bedding parts that need routine replacement, for emergency repairs, or for rush jobs. Polyurethane is, however, the material of choice for installations that are considered permanent, or where the con-struction prevents proper mechanical fastening."

 

[Justin - O'day Owners' Web]

Correction to the idea he was a salesman

Actually, he wasn't a salesman, but even if he were my questions to him were specific to 3M. I didn't ask for comparisons between 3M and other brands. I asked as between 101, 4200, and 5200 which to use when.Just for the record.Justin