stability of 23

isaksp00 · Jan 15, 2012

I don't think the video in Dougo's post is an H23 - looks slightly larger, and maybe water ballasted.

Based on limited experience with my 23, I doubt if you'd really be knocked totally down, and if you did put the rails well into the water, I have to believe it would right itself readily. Assuming you aren't in the open ocean, with cresting 40 ft waves of course. I wouldn't think there'd be any reason to try to augment the winged keel. Even if you decided you really wanted to, how would you securely attach more weight?

MrUnix · Jan 15, 2012

isaksp00 said:
I don't think the video in Dougo's post is an H23 - looks slightly larger, and maybe water ballasted.

You are correct.. the boat in that video is a water ballasted Hunter 23.5, not an H23. The H23.5 is the predecessor to the H23 and began production in 1992 (when the H23 was discontinued).

Cheers,
Brad

Crazy Dave Condon · Jan 17, 2012

There is what is called a self righting moment that is inclued in the design of a boat which is required by the Coast Gurad for hull certification plus manufacturers would not be able to get liability insurance. Basiclly it will heel alot over and will come up on its on unless you go over that righting moment and then the boat has "gone over". There is no need to get to that point when sailing for safety and peace of mind.

crazy dave

Barnacle Bill · Jan 17, 2012

Just remember that the further you heel over, the harder to knock down it becomes because of the relationship between the center of buoyancy, the center of gravity (righting arm increases) and the combined center of effort of the sails gets lower as wind spills over the top when you heel. So, the further you heel, the more stable the boat gets, rather than less.

Crazy Dave Condon · Jan 23, 2012

Barnicle Bill;

I have always said to urge caution on heeling and that of course comes thru sail contol. If heeled over too much can be dangerous. I have seen women and children terriefied to include some men and I have helped many out of the water who were thrown when the boat is heeled way over.

Each boat has a differnet righting arm and the closer you come to that, the chance of the boat going completly over raises particularly should you be hit with a big wave broadside.

I simply do not understand heeling way over, the boat is more stable but whatever, the danger of heeling way too much is a factor to be reconend with.

crazy dave

Fly_H23 · Jan 25, 2012

Dougo said:
This video's a bit over the top, but it does show the h23 will right itself after knockdown. I think these guys drank all their "ballast" (and maybe threw the Mother-in-law overboard)!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w00suzaDh_A&feature=related

They were trying to knock it down. They went low side and helped the boat over. Looks like a H240 to my uncalibrated eyeball.

Crazy Dave Condon · Jan 27, 2012

I never understood why some folks do some things but to all who read, I found over the years heeling in excess of 12- 14 degrees, you will not go any faster but scare people putting them into danger. Please do not try to purposely put any boat into a knock down situtation. I have seen damage occur, people injured in the cabin and cockpit. However, I have seen some darn fool thinking it was funny put the mast into the water with one fellow going overboard without wearing a life jacket. That fellow drowned and I was one of several who pulled the body from the water.

When you see things like that, it only makes me wonder when people try to sail dangerously. I have refused to sell boats who displayed such action.

Now you understand just one position I take.

Crazy Dave Condon

Dougo · Jan 28, 2012

MrUnix said:
You are correct.. the boat in that video is a water ballasted Hunter 23.5, not an H23. The H23.5 is the predecessor to the H23 and began production in 1992 (when the H23 was discontinued).

Cheers,
Brad

Ooops! My mistake! Good catch.

taichi · Feb 1, 2012

I've never considered the H23 to be tender at all and I have definately had mine through it's paces. While I don't advocate doing this I and a sailing buddy who happens to be a delivery captain have had my 1985 H23 out in a gail on lake Michigan - took a Nantucket slayride! saw 7.5 on GPS with reefed main and a sliver of jib out and never had the rail under water - boat was actually surfing! That was on a run.
Have had full sails out (150 genoa) taking 20-30 knot gust on a beam reach and never put the rail down. The boat just wanted to round up as the rudder wasn't getting much purchase - that time we had her to 6.5 GPS but much more stress on the rig so when we eased the sheets and brought her upright she only backed off to about 6.2knots - still flying but with considerable less rig tension.
This boat like to sail more upright - heeling her only helps fill the sails it seems in very llight air. When I have the GF out (don't tell my wife) I often sail with just the jib out and she still cruises at a nice pace, except it won't point at all that way.
Last boat was a 26' racer - you want to talk about tender... but boy would that boat point! It's always a compromise...

Jackdaw · Feb 1, 2012

Crazy Dave Condon said:
Barnicle Bill;

I have always said to urge caution on heeling and that of course comes thru sail contol. If heeled over too much can be dangerous. I have seen women and children terriefied to include some men and I have helped many out of the water who were thrown when the boat is heeled way over.

Each boat has a differnet righting arm and the closer you come to that, the chance of the boat going completly over raises particularly should you be hit with a big wave broadside.

I simply do not understand heeling way over, the boat is more stable but whatever, the danger of heeling way too much is a factor to be reconend with.

crazy dave

Dave,
Bills point is simply this: As the boat heels, the Righting Moment (the distance between the Center of Gravity 'G' and the extended Center of Buoyancy 'Z') gets greater and greater until the boat is heeled to about 60 degrees. At this point the boat is at its most stable, even though the rail is in the water.

He's not talking about sailing faster, just stability. The more people know about the forces actually working on their boats, the better sailors they become.

I think most people would be very surprised to see how far a keel-boat must heel (120 degrees +/-) before it fully capsizes.

Steve Dion · Feb 1, 2012

FYI - Adding additional weight (100-150 lbs) to your keel may run you several thousand dollars.

If you sail is baggy this can/will also add to the additional healing. When the wind is up, reef early and keep that main sail flat. You may want to have a sailmaker inspect that sail for you too.

Chris14830 · Feb 1, 2012

Hi, Steve has a good point. I bought a new main last year. I have not had it out in a big wind since, but I have found it more stable in moderate winds.
-Chris

taichi · Feb 1, 2012

Heeling

One thing the diagram forgets is that as you heel the sails spill air and when your way heeled they pretty much spill all the air and the boat comes back up. If you ease the sheets then you can control the heel very easily in a gust and then take off again and re trim. Adding keel weight would be silly.

Good point Steve D about baggy sails adding heel.

The H23 is really a great boat. If heeling scares you I highly encourage putting some time in on a small daysailer such as a laser, mutineer, thistle or similar to get a feel for sailing. You'll learn alot about sail trim and get a feel for heel.

inarathree · Feb 2, 2012

I have a H22, and while I realize its not the same boat as the discussion here, many of the principals are the same.

1) reef early
2) my boat will round up - no matter how much/little sail - at about 25-30 degrees of heel. Her rudder just looses its ability to steer.
3) if heeling scares you get out on a laser or sunfish or even a hobie cat. I got my daughter and wife over the fear of heeling by doing that, and letting them sail the sunfish. They learned a boat will go over quite a bit before going all the way over. They learned a lot and got wet, but they don't freak out at 10 degrees of heeling any more.
4) Heeling isn't faster. The longer your wetted surface is the faster your boat is. In club racing I can often out sail 25 footers who heel way over, while I am sailing as flat as I can.
5) Know your crew. If you are freaking out your crew, you won't have a crew much longer.
6) and this kind of goes with #1 - know how to flatten out your sails for heavier winds. Know how to control sail twist. These are important tools for sailing performance - see #4
7) Practice, practice, practice... Most of the posters here get out and try different things. Try stuff that people recommend. If you aren't messing up and learning something new each time you go out, then you are doing someone wrong.

Crazy Dave Condon · Feb 2, 2012

No matter what is said, induced not accidentaly extreme heeling is dangerous even what is said about stability. When I saw a boat that a skipper thought was funny heeling the boat way over which eventually caused a drowning, that is not funny particualry helping to remove the body from the water. I had to relive that experience which haunted me for a long time following testifying at trial.

Dave Condon