Squish Squish says the deck

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Mar 31, 2012
139
Nord Cantieri 38 St Marys
Greetings all,

I need some serious help from people who know more than I. I have a deck with a teak overlay. The idiots who built this boat used steel rivets to hold it down to a cored deck. Those rivets have rusted. I now have two areas of that deck that have serious soft areas.

We have cut out the upper layer of those sections to reveal wet foam core.

My question to you is, what should we fill this area with that would make it a solid and permanent fix prior to reglassing and gelcoating? I definatly do not want more foam. Is it possible to fill it with a hardened plastic?

Any ideas would be appreciated. We would like to save this boat.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,351
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
There has been much written about repair of soft core decks and you might think about buying a few books before tacking the project if you have not already done so. My son and I did a major deck repair, bordering on replacement, a few years ago using the traditional method of balsa sandwiched between epoxy and glass which worked fine. There are alternatives depending on what you want to achieve in the structure such as rigid foam (not the crap you dug out of your deck but newer types) and other impermeable materials.
 
Mar 31, 2012
139
Nord Cantieri 38 St Marys
Don,

I have hired a local fiberglass pro to work with me on it. He wants to redo the entire deck. Which I can understand as these steel rivets are all over the deck. But that would take a major chunk of the sailing season in time. I do not want another month out of the water.

Right now we have exposed the two major soft areas and I would like to achieve a light but HARDENED structure underneath. And do it quickly so we can get sailing.
 
Sep 25, 2008
7,351
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
Don,

I have hired a local fiberglass pro to work with me on it. He wants to redo the entire deck. Which I can understand as these steel rivets are all over the deck. But that would take a major chunk of the sailing season in time. I do not want another month out of the water.

Right now we have exposed the two major soft areas and I would like to achieve a light but HARDENED structure underneath. And do it quickly so we can get sailing.
That's a good plan. If you can postpone the rest of the deck repair to a later date, that will also spread out the cost. There is nothing inherently dangerous about sailing the boat as is unless the area(s) around the chain plates are weak so pay particular attention to those areas asap.
 
Nov 6, 2006
10,058
Hunter 34 Mandeville Louisiana
Klegecell or Divinycell.. or equivalent.. Good closed cell foam for core material.. Good adhesion and very low water absorption..
 
Mar 31, 2012
139
Nord Cantieri 38 St Marys
I'd love to go with a hardened plastic of some sort. Something that is more permanent than foam. ANy ideas there.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
FYI -

The only structural requirement for a cored deck (structurally known as 'box beam' construction) is that whatever fills the core remain able to prevent compression, etc. of the structure in the vertical plane .... simply to keep the 'skins' at a certain rigid 'distance apart'. In such 'overlayed decks' all the strength is carried by the top and bottom FRG 'skin', the core holds the skin at a definite constant fixed distance and position 'apart'. As long as there is a remaining structural 'connection' or 'bond' between the core, the core is still intact and 'connected' to the 'skin' ... all the structural requirements are met.

There is absolutely NO advantage to re-fill the space of the removed core with 'hardened plastic' ... WEIGHT ADDED. CLOSED cell foam is still the 'best', I still sometimes prefer 'balsa'!!!!

Since 'foam' does not 'rot' due to actions of microorganisms, if it still 'connected', most times there is no reason to replace the entire core .... only to 'seal' the water entry to prevent separation from the skin due to 'freezing' which cause the high internal deck pressures generated during the 'freeze-thaw' of the ice, etc. That said, such a wet foam core should be evaluated by sample destructive testing of removed cored, etc. -- 'plug-samples' to verify the condition of 'bonding'. In this way one only has to identify and select the 'zone' that needs a 'rebuild' and prevent the agonizing and backbreaking work of a 'full reconstruction' - just fix the 'zones' that are 'wet'. Even with balsa core most times with water intrusion, much of the core will be found to be still structurally connecting the skins and with only 'zones' or drainage pathways to lower altitude that are rotted/disconnected, etc. Test holes for core-bond evaluation, are much easier to do than rip the entire deck to do such an evaluation.

Screwed down teak decks usually leak because the 'fasteners' used typically 'saw' the upper layer of FRG due to thermal contraction/expansion between dissimilar materials ... , plus the eventual loss of 'bond' between the 'thiokol' that was used to lay/seal the teak to the FRG.... usually at 15-20 years of deck 'age'. Its usually the fasteners at the butt-ends between the strakes are the 'loose ones'. These areas of 'butt to butt' are the places to *start* core sampling to ascertain remaining core integrity if one considers a 'zonal' core repair. A pneumatic air-chisel and a SMALL electric radial hand saw to make 'plunge cuts' will be your 'new best friends'. Dont even think of doing this by 'chisel and hammer'.

I prefer "klegecel" for deck core replacement. I very carefully remove all the teak straking, and if still 'thick', remill the teak and simply epoxy laminate it to repaired/replaced top-skin, and simply enlargen the bung holes and 'bung' with 1/2" Ø bungs where needed if the 3/8" Ø holes have been damaged during the removal process.
Nothing beats 'teak' for wet-traction on deck, laminated (or re-laminated) teak is the cats-meow.

My suggested method is akin to fixing the cavity in the tooth and simply doing a cosmetic external bonding repair 'over' just the cavity .... the other way of rip the whole deck off would be equivalent to a 'cap' after grinding away the whole top of the tooth, including a 'root canal'.

Just my 'viewpoint' ... your mileage may differ. ;-)
 
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
I'd love to go with a hardened plastic of some sort. Something that is more permanent than foam.
There is no reason to use a hardened plastic. If the epoxy doesn't make a good bond to it you will have other problems and epoxy will not stick to most plastics. Whether the core is balsa (my choice) or foam, water ingress, as you found out, is a problem. There is no reason for any core to come in contact with water if all holes are potted properly - something few builders ever did.

Are you keeping the teak?
 
Dec 15, 2011
103
Oday 20 SF Bay Area/Monterey Bay
Greetings all,

I need some serious help from people who know more than I. I have a deck with a teak overlay. The idiots who built this boat used steel rivets to hold it down to a cored deck. Those rivets have rusted. I now have two areas of that deck that have serious soft areas.

Any ideas would be appreciated. We would like to save this boat.
It's a beautiful boat design and I agree with another poster to make sure the chain plates are secure and do the minimal repair to get sailing for now and spread the expense.

I would however recommend at this time that you save the remainder of your core by drilling out all the steel rivets, removing the teak overlay and potting the holes until a later time when you have the time and resources to complete the job. You may lose the teak deck for a season but may save a small fortune if more of these things spring leaks.

Hang onto the teak as you may be able to re-purpose it later depending on condition.

My .02, probably worth less:D
 
Mar 13, 2012
34
Sabre 28 MKII Georgetown Yacht Basin, MD
An alternative core material...

There is a suitable core material that is harder and stronger than the more popular ones: synthetic foam and end-grain balsa. It is Coosa Composite. I've used it successfully to replace plywood that was used as a core material for decks and transoms and had become wet and rotten secondary to water intrusion.

Baltek's Contour Core, which consists of blocks of end-grain balsa attached to a fiberglass scrim, is an excellent core material if it's used correctly. To prevent water intrusion and subsequent rot the spaces between the blocks should be filled with resin putty. The resin can be either an epoxy, a polyester or a vinylester but it should be of good quality. A resin putty should be used in this manner regardless of the type of core material.

After the failed core has been replaced, the new laminate should be formed using a resin of high quality and chopped-strand mat (CSM) rather than cloth. Many of the problems with decks - such as delamination and pin blisters - are due to its cloth. Cloth is used for cosmetic reasons but its resin content is much less than CSM and is the main cause of the problems.
 
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
For the top laminate layer biaxial 1708 which is a stitched roving with epoxy compatible mat on one side is a good choice. Most mat is not compatible with epoxy. Mat by itself has little strength and its main use is to fill in the gaps and create a bond between layers of woven roving.
 
Mar 13, 2012
34
Sabre 28 MKII Georgetown Yacht Basin, MD
How do you plan to finish the surface of this laminate made with 1708 biax and epoxy resin? And have you ever actually constructed or repaired a deck using this technique?
 
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Mar 13, 2012
34
Sabre 28 MKII Georgetown Yacht Basin, MD
For the top laminate layer biaxial 1708 which is a stitched roving with epoxy compatible mat on one side is a good choice. Most mat is not compatible with epoxy. Mat by itself has little strength and its main use is to fill in the gaps and create a bond between layers of woven roving.
How do you plan to finish the surface of this laminate made with 1708 biax and epoxy resin? And have you ever actually constructed or repaired a deck using this technique?
 
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
Yes, I've used biax this way before, but not for an entire deck. Depending on the thickness of the top skin 2 or possibly 3 layers of biax are needed.

If you are re-coring from the top fairing and painting is necessary. The taper ground at the edges should be about 2" to 2 1/2" on both the old top skin and the skin at the edge of the area.

Here's a link to a major re-core using the same technique - and Tim knows exactly how to do it, it's his living, and he is very good at it. http://www.lackeysailing.com/snowlily/2012/march12/32712.htm
 
Mar 13, 2012
34
Sabre 28 MKII Georgetown Yacht Basin, MD
Yes, I've used biax this way before, but not for an entire deck. Depending on the thickness of the top skin 2 or possibly 3 layers of biax are needed.

If you are re-coring from the top fairing and painting is necessary. The taper ground at the edges should be about 2" to 2 1/2" on both the old top skin and the skin at the edge of the area.

Here's a link to a major re-core using the same technique - and Tim knows exactly how to do it, it's his living, and he is very good at it. http://www.lackeysailing.com/snowlily/2012/march12/32712.htm
I've been on the site before but reviewed it again. This link shows a finished deck repair using a typical epoxy process: http://www.lackeysailing.com/totoro/totoro.html
Unfortunately, Tim's epoxy-based methods have far too many inherent weaknesses and limitations.

Between 1976 and 1989, I used several popular epoxies (primarily WEST System) for various repairs and modifications. In 1990, I first tried CoREZYN VE 8117, a vinylester resin. It was so much better than the epoxies I never used an epoxy again.

Here are the advantages of a system based on CoREZYN compared to an epoxy counterpart:

1. is epoxy-based but is as easy to use as a polyester;

2. meets or exceeds the physical properties of the epoxies, including an exceptional ability to resist moisture;

3. can be diluted with styrene to reduce its viscosity without compromising its physical properties;

4. is compatible with all reinforcing materials, including chopped-strand mat, and additives, including Cab-O-Sil TS-720, allowing the user to thoroughly mix a variety of resin putties with no more "epoxy hotpot";

5. remains green for two weeks to facilitate chemical bonding with no amine blush to deal with;

6. will cure readily at low ambient temperatures;

7. and forms a primary bond with both commercial resin putties and gelcoat based on polyester resin.
 
Sep 28, 2008
922
Canadian Sailcraft CS27 Victoria B.C.
I prefer epoxy - I have used West and Industrial Formulators (now System 3) for over 20 years. I find it easy to use - easier than polyester - I can tailor it to any application with a multitude of additives that can be used individually or combined - I can adjust pot time with different hardeners. I am convinced it gives the best result - maybe vinylester can equal this but I don't think it gives a better result. Amine blush is easily dealt with.

It is an excellent adhesive for wood structures - polyester based products are not.

And it doesn't stink.
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack






You never gonna get agreement on the best way and HOW the deck is built varies vastly



For example on early Cals you really cant work from the top as the inner skin is not attached to anything in much of the boat BUT it is important :)
 
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