squaring the head of the main

[katana750]

I am just learning how to use this site and I noticed something on a older post with the same title I am using now but it is now closed I am not sure the best way to reopen it or if that is possible. Anyway it was by Oreana 123.

After reading all the options about raising the boom hight a bit for a bimini I liked the idea of a sliding gooseneck. The problem is the flaring on the mast pole. It looks like I can raise the boom about 3 inches but if I need a bit more than that and for the sliding gooseneck to work I would have to raise it about 8 inches to get to the topside of the flare. The sail is too long for that. I really don't have reasonable access to a sail maker here in cranbrook BC . This is what makes squaring the top of the sail so appealing. I have seen headboards as big as 5.25" but not bigger on the internet, this would be close, but is there a limit to their size? Could I make one at say 8" out of aluminum and eliminate the need for somebody to add battens for me like Oreana 123 did.

Thanks Dave

 

[finding41]

What about this? I think It is from RightOn. I like the mods he has done. Oh here is a link to a back stay flicker. http://www.rbsbattens.com/new-powdercoated-epoxy-backstay-flickers/

 

[katana750]

What about this? I think It is from RightOn. I like the mods he has done. Oh here is a link to a back stay flicker. http://www.rbsbattens.com/new-powdercoated-epoxy-backstay-flickers/

thanks for the reply, but this is just one more thing on a list of many that pertain to sailing that I am clueless about. I assume a back stay flicker is something that puts the back stay under pressure? Isn't it already under pressure, I am not sure how it works. I tried to search for the mods for RightOn but I am not quite sure how to do that. I used the search function but that didn't really help. I am sure it is easy....once I know how. Any way it looks interesting it looks like I have to educate myself further, I guess it is part of the fun any way.

 

[finding41]

thanks for the reply, but this is just one more thing on a list of many that pertain to sailing that I am clueless about. I assume a back stay flicker is something that puts the back stay under pressure? Isn't it already under pressure, I am not sure how it works. I tried to search for the mods for RightOn but I am not quite sure how to do that. I used the search function but that didn't really help. I am sure it is easy....once I know how. Any way it looks interesting it looks like I have to educate myself further, I guess it is part of the fun any way.

The back stay on your 26S doesn't really do much unless you are running down wind or with a spinnaker. (On my 26 it is loose like floppy! I have never noticed it get tight. I think that is because it only really holds from top of the stays up.) To my knowledge the new 26M doesn't have a back stay! All the work is done by the side stays. Note that they are positioned behind the mast. So the flicker just keeps the back stay kind of tight but mostly away from the sail.

To find RightOn's mods/threads he has started. Go to the Owner directory tab above, click search owner directory and type his name in the top box. Then.... Aaah. I just did it and can't find him.. Anyone have a link?
I know he had his boat for sale on CragsList in Sept... I bet he is someware around here though.

 

[oreana123]

Hey Katana


Your backstay is primarily used to flatten the upper area of the main. If you are not using an adjustable backstay to change the tension then I guess the backstay is not necessary. Macgregor left off this item, but a small block and tackle will do the job. If you want to be able to go back to the stock set up, then fabricate a new backstay for the adjuster out of dyneema line like that offered by the Samson company called Amsteel.

As far as squaring the main goes, you might choose this modification for at least 2 reasons. First of all, I am not convinced that the uppermost triangle of mainsail does any good. Due to the windspeed gradient from foot to head, a certain twist is induced in your main when it is set correctly, and this accommodates the changing relative wind angle as you go from foot to head of the main. The question I have is whether the twist can correctly set the uppermost triangle.

Another effect of squaring off the head of a mainsail is that it shortens the luff. In conjunction with a sliding gooseneck, the main can be raised or lowered along the mast to accommodate wind speeds: higher for light air and lower for heavier air. It can also get the boom above of the cockpit, a much safer and comfortable situation.

There is a drawback. If you shorten the main and raise it all the way up the mast, you might experience a conflict with the backstay. On my 26D, this clearance conflict can be dealt with in 2 ways, either loosen the adjustable backstay and let the sail come across, or manually grab the sail and shake it. I have a lot of roach in my main, btw, but I make it happen easily. Note that this conflict only is important on a beat, when jibing the sail does not have a problem.

My sliding gooseneck has a metal loop welded on the bottom. I use a cunningham adjuster to adjust my luff tension. I also use a pin above the mast slot to keep the mainsail from falling on the deck when I let the main halyard go. I am considering closing the slot up a bit so that the sliding gooseneck will not come out of the mast, but my slugs will. I already pin my mainsail tack to the sliding gooseneck with a quick release pin. The sliding gooseneck is from a Hobie 18.

PM me if interested

 

[katana750]

I would be very interested in seeing his mod, and your right the back stay is a little loose, but not really slack. It isn't flopping around but I can't play a tune on it either. I just figured it was something a didn't adjust properly, but I was moving forward so I was happy. Next year I might try get a bit more technical.

Thanks Dave

 

[katana750]

Thanks for your reply I wasn't sure how to contact you. I think what you did was good idea for increasing the sail height. I started looking at Sumners mod for this (which I find incredible, I don't know how he has the patience to take pictures and document each step, but it is greatly appreciate) but I was worried if it didn't quite raise the boom enough. Your idea is a good compromise, but I didn't think about the backstay. I'll have to look at that first, I sail on a small lake (maybe Kootenay lake next year) and I am lucky if it is ten minutes between tacks I don't want to mess with the backstay each time. Being able to measure that while up in the air might be a challenge. I read an old post about somebody wanting to know if any body had climbed up the mast before. At first I thought it was an odd question now I know why you MIGHT want to do this. I'll pass though, a vision of a big fat black bear in a skinny apple tree comes to mind. I should be able to do scale drawing to some degree of accuracy. PM? post message? I will have figure out how to do that. I am a pretty passive computer user, I just read, I haven't fiddle with the different functions very much.

Thanks Dave (katana is my bike, odd handle I know but I have used it for years)

Ok pm Private message....wasn't that hard just had to look. I'll get those measurements first. Did you make your battens yourself or have them installed?

 

[oreana123]

Katana you can call me Tuono

I know about Kootenai Lake, it is just above me geographically speaking. As far as the backstay interference goes, I just added that so you know what you are getting into. It is no big thing really.

I sew and repair sails. I have a stock of battens in various sizes and thicknesses.

I find that even getting the boom up a few inches is a welcome relief in the cockpit headroom and I'll never go back to the stock fixed position gooseneck

 

[katana750]

Hi Tuono

That is pretty convenient that you know how to fix sails.....I on the other hand have seen a needle once....Its the thing you use to dig slivers out with... right? I would have to imagine the triangle dimensions between the back stay, mast and the boom are similar between the S and a D. I don't know quite how to word this but what was the width of the squared off head. I think you mentioned you gained 18" so I would imagine it would be at least 12". At this width does it interfere with the backstay? I think there is somebody in town that does canvas top work. I would have to think they could sew some battens in for me. There seems to be some plastic battens on the net that I could cut to size. Is there a width and thickness I should look for?

I saw you were from Boise and thought, Idaho. thats pretty close to me. Then I looked on the map, Idaho yes Boise no. I'll have to look at the history of Idaho. It looks like Washington and Montana decided that you needed just enough room so you could have access to the Canadian border. Why I am not sure. There most be story there.

Dave

 

[oreana123]

We call it the Idaho panhandle.

 

[finding41]

oreana123 can you post picks here or in the owner mod section? I would love to see how your sliding goose neck works. ( I have one that has 2 hose clamps around it, PO...)
I wouldn't mind some advice on modifying a regular old sale and cutting and sewing a flat top sail.
About the back stay adjustment.... Some PO (I use PO like I'm swearing!) bent the mast on my boat... it was bent kind of sideways and back. I fixed the sideways bend but still have it bent back. (See curly mast thred)
Look at the picture and tell me what you think.Was it bent back from the back stay being too tight? Why bend ware it did?
I think that back stay flicker thing would work great. Or even build a larger chicken head extension...

 

[katana750]

Hi there

I will give it a shot if I am wrong it will encourage somebody with knowledge to correct me. I think a sliding gooseneck should not really be fixed to the boom but you basically pull your sail up the mast and the gooseneck kind of slides in the chanel. Then there should be a way to attach the line to the gooseneck and then sinch it to a hook at the base of the mast although if you like the spot where the boom is I guess there is nothing wrong with clamping it there Ok I will stand back and let somebody correct me... Does your sliding gooseneck look like one of these https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=40&cat1Name=Hardware&familyID=17&familyName=Goosenecks

Dave

 

[katana750]

About the back stay adjustment.... Some PO (I use PO like I'm swearing!) bent the mast on my boat... it was bent kind of sideways and back. I fixed the sideways bend but still have it bent back. (See curly mast thred)
Look at the picture and tell me what you think.Was it bent back from the back stay being too tight? Why bend ware it did?
I think that back stay flicker thing would work great. Or even build a larger chicken head extension...[/quote]

Just a thought but I have noticed my mast is bent as well, but the mast seems to be quite flexible, I am sure you have done this but if you just make the front stay tighter wouldn't that help with the bow.(Assuming the other line at the top of the mast heading to the stern is just a topping lift). Unless it has a big kink in it. Of coarse this is based on my vast sailing experience of one summer so probably not the helpful.

Dave

 

[finding41]

My goose neck looks like this;
DH 4100
Gooseneck Slide
Fits Grove Size: 5/8" deep Mast Grove
$69.30
From the link; https://www.dwyermast.com/items.asp?cat1ID=40&cat1Name=Hardware&familyID=17&familyName=Goosenecks

As for tightening the for stay.. Not sure that will work. The rigging is pretty light for that type of stress from one area.
I took the wow to port out of my mast between two wooden parking barriers. Just me and another guy bending gently. Very gently! Here is a picture of the wow.
You have the same amount of experience I have. I can't count the stuff 20 years ago. I was more interested in bikinis than sailing. The bikinis just happened to like the sailboats so.....

 

[katana750]

Ok that is a much more substantial bend than mine. From the sounds of it looks like permanent bend whether it is under tension or not. Mine just has a bend in from the rigging probably not quite adjusted right. I have a flexible furler that is probably a bit to tight and I think it would be difficult to adjust the length. Good idea with the parking barriers....you could probably do something similar the bow to stern bend and a chain hoist it can apply a lot of pressure but it can be done very slowly. It might be a little tough with the egg shaped mast though. It would have a tendency to roll and it would be tough to find two objects the perfect distance apart. Somebody out there must have better idea. It would be nice to now what happened to it.

 

[finding41]

I got the wow out. The bend back doesn't seem to affect the sail ability of it.
If you want to straiten out your mast. Don't forget to set your spreaders evenly before you raise the mast. (Mine were out by 4 3/4" from each other and one was 6" low!)
You can find the measurement in the owners manual. There is one in the owners modifications tab section above.

Get on top of the cabin behind the mast and pull in on one of the side stays while looking up the mast. You will notice how it moves in and out differently with each pull in on a different stay.
Well that's how I tuned mine after I got the wow out. Tighten or loosen what you have to to get it strait. Then tighten the whole rig to the correct tension with a loose gauge (spelling?). Or check someones else's rigging for tightness by feel that you know has there's tuned properly. It will be tighter than you think.
You will need two people and a Philips screwdriver. You on the ground pulling pins and checking and someone on the cabin top pulling. Screw driver to get the holes lined up.
Its pretty easy.
Here are after photos. In the 2nd one there still is a bend back but not as bad as with the wow in it.

 

[katana750]

I'll have to check my spreaders next time I have the mast out. I was able to straighten the mast side to to side using the way you described, but I just eyed the mast until it was straight never thought about the spreaders. I didn't worry about the bend from bow to stern, because it had the rolling furler and I don't think it has a wire stay (cable I never quite remember terminology) running down the middle of it with a turnbuckle that I have heard other people talking about. I think it is just fiberglass, but I will look at it more closely when I work on squaring the mast....I'm like you and hoping that oreana123 or somebody else can point us to the pictures of the RightOn sail mods. I have some videos from Sailrite that show how to do sail work, but my needle and thread work is limited. I might talk to the place in town that does canvas work.

Dave

 

[finding41]

I love the SailRight videos. Wow the work they put into making just the video is amazing.
I am going to be cutting and sewing a few sails this winter. (I found a great deal on line.) So I'm cutting some up to make different ones. A storm sail for my Mac and main and jib for a PDRacer. (Doesn't look so hard in the videos...)
I would love to make a asymmetrical spinnaker for the mac to the pattern below.
I have already redone all my cushion covers and am not afraid to sew sails. But need a bit more sewing machine time and on the design side for a complicated image like that.

 

[katana750]

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