Square sail .. Big Blue flies!

[LagunaJay]

Can a sloop sail upwind as a fore-and-aft rigged vessel, then sail downwind as a square rigged vessel? Aye, she can ye scurvy scalliwag! Here’s a link to the blog post if you’re interested:

Big Blue ...

 

[shemandr]

Interesting. At least you don't have to fool with the main blocking the wind from the jib going downwind. I’d like for you to be aboard if I ever have to make a jury rig!

 

[jssailem]

Setting a square rig is interesting. It does set a large pole, high in the rigging on a small mast. I guess I wonder why?

To say I can design and do it, it is different - ok. But it is not necessarily efficient. What had been gained over a spinnaker with no mass on a pole at the top of the mast? A spinnaker gives you the same massive sail area as the big blue square sail. It is significantly lighter in construction and rigging. You can control it much the same as ”big blue”. It is easier to drop and store.

But congrats on your accomplishment. I’ll look for “Big blue”as I cross the floating bridges.

 

[Will Gilmore]

To say I can design and do it, it is different - ok. But it is not necessarily efficient. What had been gained over a spinnaker with no mass on a pole at the top of the mast?

Intimidation.

It's very cool.

-Will

 

[Tom J]

Interesting. One of a kind. We customize our cars, why not our boats?

 

[LagunaJay]

Setting a square rig is interesting. It does set a large pole, high in the rigging on a small mast. I guess I wonder why?

To say I can design and do it, it is different - ok. But it is not necessarily efficient. What had been gained over a spinnaker with no mass on a pole at the top of the mast? A spinnaker gives you the same massive sail area as the big blue square sail. It is significantly lighter in construction and rigging. You can control it much the same as ”big blue”. It is easier to drop and store.

But congrats on your accomplishment. I’ll look for “Big blue”as I cross the floating bridges.

yes, what you say about the yard-spar is correct. The “why” reason is: well, because I love Patrick O’Brian novels and just wanted to see if it could be done. The original (test case) yard spar was made of bamboo which was a bit lighter and my original intention was to fabricate the full-size yard-spar from a carbon fiber tube but couldn’t find a supplier. If anyone knows of a vendor who will sell me an 8 foot long, 3.0 - 3.5 inch OD carbon fiber tube with material properties (tension, compression and shear strength) equal to or superior to 6061 aluminum, please let me know! PS...I really like your signature line quote!

 

[jssailem]

Here is a possible.

https://www.clearwatercomposites.com/products/carbon-fiber-tubes/

I can not find the name right now but there was a boat shop in Anacortes that helped to build a carbon fiber mast for one of Bob Perry’s recent boat designs.

The 8 ft long piece might be a bit long to get shipped. You could splice shorter lengths together with glued ferrules.
From the above linked company:

• Long lengths: tubes can be joined together with internal (or external) ferrules to achieve the required length.

 

[Ron20324]

The “why” reason is: well, because I love Patrick O’Brian novels and just wanted to see if it could be done.

Reminds me of the Johnny Cash song (I don't know the title) "It was a brand new 19-51/52/53/54 Ford/Chevy/Lincoln' that I puuut to-gether"... etc.
Actually I have shared your thought from time to time, but never got around to it, though I now have TWO OEM jibs. Hhmmm. Also oodles of Sunbrella....

 

[Hayden Watson]

One Piece at a time..

 

[DArcy]

wanted to see if it could be done

That's about as good a reason as any. I hope you have the appropriate hat for that sail.

 

[BarryL]

These guys will be happy to help

Carbon Fiber Tubing Manufacturer | Marine, Industrial, Aerospace

Forte Carbon Fiber: Leading manufacturer of high-quality carbon fiber tubing for marine, industrial, aerospace & military. Custom lightweight solutions. Contact us!

fortecarbon.com

Or just buy a CF Spin pole:

Forte 10' Carbon Fiber Spinnaker Pole - FCT 150

The lightweight and durable 10' Carbon Fiber Spinnaker Pole is engineered specifically to withstand the bending loads of the center point pick. Features: Optimize fiber architecture for strength characteristics based on the application Continuous

www.defender.com

I like your spirit, but I would just use a spinnaker instead.

Good luck,
Barry

If anyone knows of a vendor who will sell me an 8 foot long, 3.0 - 3.5 inch OD carbon fiber tube with material properties (tension, compression and shear strength) equal to or superior to 6061 aluminum, please let me know! PS...I really like your signature line quote!

 

[dLj]

The 8 ft long piece might be a bit long to get shipped.

Naw, they ship 20 foot lengths every day, no special permits. Standard stuff...

dj

 

[jssailem]

@LagunaJay
How is the sailing?

While reviewing various sites, I came across this write up that I thought might interest you.

SQUARESAIL

Fair winds.

 

[LagunaJay]

Wow, he took a completely different approach ... very creative! I guess I didn’t need to be worried about hoisting my yard-spar ... it only weighs 12 pounds. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Jollyroger]

While reviewing various sites, I came across this write up that I thought might interest you.
SQUARESAIL

Jssailem found the site for my brigantine schooner Britannia, which I converted from a ketch to the present rig. There are a lot of advantages in a square-sail, (in my case, the fore-course), for a cruising boat, which presumably always tries to catch a downwind passage. My method of handling the 400 square foot sail is very safe, and can be furled and unfurled by one person in the cockpit. It is also fully reefable, unlike the OP’s big blue, or a spinnaker, it can be kept flying as wind increases and nobody has to go on deck to reef or drop the sail.
Anyone seriously interested in this age-old method should explore the site, which explains the principal and construction of a roller furling square-sail.
www.schooner_britannia.com.

 

[jssailem]

Anyone seriously interested in this age-old method should explore the site, which explains the principal and construction of a roller furling square-sail.

A creative fun site.

 

[Jollyroger]

I don’t know why anyone would want to set-up a spinnaker, or twin headsails, with all the associated lines and poles, when they would only have to pull a single line to unfurl a much safer sail, which needs no control and can be reefed if the wind picks up.

I can run my fore-course with the wind three points either side of the stern, without even adjusting the braces. If you do that with twin headsails, you risk collapsing one sail. Leave either out too long, and you can be in trouble.

 

[LagunaJay]

The rigging, fabric and lines associated with my square sail were all sized based on a design wind of 20 knots with a 50% FOS. I have flown Big Blue a number of times and haven’t yet had the problem of too much wind. One of the great things about sailing downwind is that when true wind picks up, boat speed increases, mitigating the increase in apparent wind. If I got into a situation where I worried that the sail forces would exceed even the capability of the running backstays, I would simply ease the sheets which is very effective in spilling the wind from the sail without flogging itself to pieces. This is exactly what I do when preparing to lower and douse the sail. My experience mirrors that of Jollyroger; my square sail is effective with the wind anywhere from directly astern to about a broad reach and the square sail is much easier to manage (once hoisted) than contending with a mainsail and Genoa wing-on-wing. My yard-spar can rotate about 30 degrees each side of centerline. Here are my calculations for the current rigging configuration (Configuration #5):

Sqoop -- Laguna 26

 

[Jollyroger]

My dear LagunaJay, this is an interesting discussion for you and I, but you must realize that we are both flogging a dead horse in trying to suggest to the average owner that he might consider shifting slightly backward in history and look at a square-sail to augment his boat’s ability to sail better and easier downwind.
My own “invention” of a roller furling square sail has been based solely upon my experience of actually sailing on boats with various methods for flying one, Including a loose-headed sail much like yours, along with their advantages and disadvantages.
Initially, I approached two naval architects, offering copious amounts of dollars, with questions like, “What is the load distribution on a square(ish) sail pushing a boat directly downwind?” and “What would be the approximate length of a yard, (not a yard-spar sir—the term is simply yard, but since you are not British the error is excused ), for a 50’ foot schooner of 14’ foot beam and 6’6” draft?” Neither offered any clear advice, probably because they had no idea of the answer.
I have tried to answer these questions and more on my website, from the added experience with my own system.
But going back to my first paragraph, why bother? You and I have our perfect combination of sails, to sail in any direction, including backward if we like, (you can do that with a squaresail), so why keep trying to convert the unconvertable?

 

[LagunaJay]

To drive my boat at 4 knots (≈70% of hull speed) using my 180SF square sail requires about 5 knots of relative wind (9 knots of true wind); the sail is producing just over 700 pounds of force to overcome hull drag, 53% transmitted through the sheets and 47% through the head of the sail via the braces and halyard. The sail loading even at the design wind (20 knots relative) is under half a psi. I don’t know if that helps answer your questions, but you can always simply redo the calculations using your vessel’s numbers. Here’s a link to my methodology:

Sqoop -- Laguna 26

Yes, yard is the traditional term used to describe the horizontal spar that the head of a square sail is attached to. However, since I fabricated the thing myself and I’m one of those obstinate, troublesome American colonists who refuses to call a truck a lorry and a stroller a pram, I will continue to call my yard a yard-spar, so as not to confuse it with 1) a large vessel of beer; 2) something else 36” in length; or, 3) a vast expanse of Kentucky bluegrass. However, in deference to British hegemony on the high seas in the 19th century, and to honor Captain Jack Aubrey’s valiant & loyal Bonden (RIP), I will refer to the ends of my yard-spar as yardarms.

Sir, I would like to buy you a pint of grog (or a yard of beer) at our local pub should you ever find yourself in the northwest corner of our nation.