I realize that this is a standard technique for any sailor - but given the Vega's unusual setup with prop aft of the rudder I'd be interested in comments.Last weekend I was berthed alongside (portside to) with boats fore & aft of me say two meters clear. The wind was about 30 degrees off the starboard bow so obviously pushing me on and astern.Wind say 15 knots - no tide.I rigged a (floating/polypropylene) spring line from the starboard (windward) stern cleat on boat back through the eye of a shore cleat abeam of the boat's stern, then back to the port cockpit winch. Fenders at the port quarter.Crewman on the bow cast off slipline & ready to fend off.As he cast off, engine hard forward with tiller hard to port and friendly helper on shore pushed bow off and boat swung very nicely out to starboard through the wind and off we went with the (floating/polypropylene) spring line trailing behind to be recovered when crewman came back to cockpit.That all went OK so the questions;Would the "springing from the stern technique" as described still have worked with the wind on the starboard beam?Would the technique still have worked with the foredeck crewman doing the pushing off (with wind on beam or just 30 degrees off bow)?And would springing off from the bow with astern power have worked at all/as well/better (with wind on beam or just 30 degrees off bow)??The latter question as I think that springing off from the bow is the more standard technique for yachts in general - but would it work for a Vega?Of course I could have motored back into the berth and experimented but I was happy to have "escaped" without incident..Comments welcome.Thanks,John V1447 Breakaway
Springing off from the stern
- Thread starter Vega1447
- Start date
I have been looking at the idea of adding a rudder extension. I think I can do this in a way that gets a nice fin pass the prop to help with this problem. It would only be at the upper portion of the rudder and only a third of the rudder surface. It would be very thin and tied well into the main rudder. I do know that any added surface adds drag, I have done something like this on my power boats and it worked well. Still thinking.Larry WillsSV-Lily Two V-2761Sent from Windows MailFrom: n4lbl alan.schulman@... [AlbinVega]Sent: ?Tuesday?, ?July? ?15?, ?2014 ?11?:?12? ?AMTo: n4lbl alan.schulman@... [AlbinVega]
I realize that this is a standard technique for any sailor - but given the Vega's unusual setup with prop aft of the rudder I'd be interested in comments.Last weekend I was berthed alongside (portside to) with boats fore & aft of me say two meters clear. The wind was about 30 degrees off the starboard bow so obviously pushing me on and astern.Wind say 15 knots - no tide.I rigged a (floating/polypropylene) spring line from the starboard (windward) stern cleat on boat back through the eye of a shore cleat abeam of the boat's stern, then back to the port cockpit winch. Fenders at the port quarter.Crewman on the bow cast off slipline & ready to fend off.As he cast off, engine hard forward with tiller hard to port and friendly helper on shore pushed bow off and boat swung very nicely out to starboard through the wind and off we went with the (floating/polypropylene) spring line trailing behind to be recovered when crewman came back to cockpit.That all went OK so the questions;Would the "springing from the stern technique" as described still have worked with the wind on the starboard beam?Would the technique still have worked with the foredeck crewman doing the pushing off (with wind on beam or just 30 degrees off bow)?And would springing off from the bow with astern power have worked at all/as well/better (with wind on beam or just 30 degrees off bow)??The latter question as I think that springing off from the bow is the more standard technique for yachts in general - but would it work for a Vega?Of course I could have motored back into the berth and experimented but I was happy to have "escaped" without incident..Comments welcome.Thanks,John V1447 Breakaway
I realize that this is a standard technique for any sailor - but given the Vega's unusual setup with prop aft of the rudder I'd be interested in comments.Last weekend I was berthed alongside (portside to) with boats fore & aft of me say two meters clear. The wind was about 30 degrees off the starboard bow so obviously pushing me on and astern.Wind say 15 knots - no tide.I rigged a (floating/polypropylene) spring line from the starboard (windward) stern cleat on boat back through the eye of a shore cleat abeam of the boat's stern, then back to the port cockpit winch. Fenders at the port quarter.Crewman on the bow cast off slipline & ready to fend off.As he cast off, engine hard forward with tiller hard to port and friendly helper on shore pushed bow off and boat swung very nicely out to starboard through the wind and off we went with the (floating/polypropylene) spring line trailing behind to be recovered when crewman came back to cockpit.That all went OK so the questions;Would the "springing from the stern technique" as described still have worked with the wind on the starboard beam?Would the technique still have worked with the foredeck crewman doing the pushing off (with wind on beam or just 30 degrees off bow)?And would springing off from the bow with astern power have worked at all/as well/better (with wind on beam or just 30 degrees off bow)??The latter question as I think that springing off from the bow is the more standard technique for yachts in general - but would it work for a Vega?Of course I could have motored back into the berth and experimented but I was happy to have "escaped" without incident..Comments welcome.Thanks,John V1447 Breakaway
John, been thinking about this and had a little trouble getting my
head around it. I kept wanting to think about a propellar in front
of the rudder. Where a spring line going forward on the boat alloys
you to go ahead and swing the stern out and then back away. I have
done it with my vega and it seems to work but not as good as when
you have propwash going around the rudder from the prop.
You said you put the helm to port
and that threw me off but it likely made no difference. I am
thinking the starboard stern cleat wound up being the pivoting
point as the boat was held in by the line to the dock cleat and
the other end going around the winch on the port side keept the
boat from moving forward so if you let it pay out slow the bow
could swing out. Since the propeller is on the center line of the
boat it is about 3 ft from the cleat and pivot point. So the prop
on a 3ft lever arm on a 27 ft boat turning into the wind did not
have any mechanical advantage but with the wind mostly off the bow
it didn't have that much area to press against either. If the
wind had been 90 deg. off the bow I would say there is a good
possibility you might swing the boat out but I suspect it may have
taken full throttle to push the bow out far enough to leave the
dock. I am not sure I would have guts enough to open the throttle
with the bow of my boat only a few feet away from another boat?
I am in a narrow slip the first on on a dock and one side of
it is a bulkhead. I come in slow and about 10 feet from the
bulkhead I put the tiller to port hard and put the engine in
revers my wife steps off the boat with a bow line in hand and ties
it off forward on the bulkhead a couple fenders for a cushion hit
the bulkhead and a little reverse throttle I tie off the rest of
the dock lines. The natural tendency to back to port keeps the
boat against the bulkhead as it backs and my wife holds it off. If
a strong wind is pus- hing her sideways onto the bulkhead we both
get off and walk her back. On the starboard side there is a
forty ft slip so there is a piling on my starboard side that is
right far ahead of my boat. When we leave the dock we untie and my
takes a turn around a shroud with the starboard bow line and I
creep forward and that swings us around bow out. She throws the
dock line on top the piling for a quick retrieval when returning.
There are boats in from of my slip and I can't get enough speed up
to turn before getting to those boats if the wind is coming from
the right direction so the turn around the piling is essential.
People are amazed that we can get in and out and we just except
the praise. Its the easiest slip in the marina to get in and out
of but we keep that to ourselves. So in fact my wife docks the
boat coming in and steers her on the way out. I was recently told,
Captain you can really handle that little boat. Thank you I
replied. My wife wasn't there to kick me.
-- Doug Pollard Albin Vega Sea Legs 2225 KK4YGO
head around it. I kept wanting to think about a propellar in front
of the rudder. Where a spring line going forward on the boat alloys
you to go ahead and swing the stern out and then back away. I have
done it with my vega and it seems to work but not as good as when
you have propwash going around the rudder from the prop.
You said you put the helm to port
and that threw me off but it likely made no difference. I am
thinking the starboard stern cleat wound up being the pivoting
point as the boat was held in by the line to the dock cleat and
the other end going around the winch on the port side keept the
boat from moving forward so if you let it pay out slow the bow
could swing out. Since the propeller is on the center line of the
boat it is about 3 ft from the cleat and pivot point. So the prop
on a 3ft lever arm on a 27 ft boat turning into the wind did not
have any mechanical advantage but with the wind mostly off the bow
it didn't have that much area to press against either. If the
wind had been 90 deg. off the bow I would say there is a good
possibility you might swing the boat out but I suspect it may have
taken full throttle to push the bow out far enough to leave the
dock. I am not sure I would have guts enough to open the throttle
with the bow of my boat only a few feet away from another boat?
I am in a narrow slip the first on on a dock and one side of
it is a bulkhead. I come in slow and about 10 feet from the
bulkhead I put the tiller to port hard and put the engine in
revers my wife steps off the boat with a bow line in hand and ties
it off forward on the bulkhead a couple fenders for a cushion hit
the bulkhead and a little reverse throttle I tie off the rest of
the dock lines. The natural tendency to back to port keeps the
boat against the bulkhead as it backs and my wife holds it off. If
a strong wind is pus- hing her sideways onto the bulkhead we both
get off and walk her back. On the starboard side there is a
forty ft slip so there is a piling on my starboard side that is
right far ahead of my boat. When we leave the dock we untie and my
takes a turn around a shroud with the starboard bow line and I
creep forward and that swings us around bow out. She throws the
dock line on top the piling for a quick retrieval when returning.
There are boats in from of my slip and I can't get enough speed up
to turn before getting to those boats if the wind is coming from
the right direction so the turn around the piling is essential.
People are amazed that we can get in and out and we just except
the praise. Its the easiest slip in the marina to get in and out
of but we keep that to ourselves. So in fact my wife docks the
boat coming in and steers her on the way out. I was recently told,
Captain you can really handle that little boat. Thank you I
replied. My wife wasn't there to kick me.
-- Doug Pollard Albin Vega Sea Legs 2225 KK4YGO
Brian Suggested I put an outboard rudder on the stern to mount a
wind van on. I guess one with a little trim tab on it aft edge?
The rudder behind the wheel would be handy and is a really easy wind
vane steering to build. If the rudder was mounted in pintals on the
transom it would be easy to lift it off and stow. It would also just
look like a steering vane which looks right smart on a Vega. I am
still kicking that around.
--
Doug Pollard
Albin Vega Sea Legs 2225
KK4YGO
On 07/15/2014 05:58 PM,
lewills30@... [AlbinVega] wrote:
wind van on. I guess one with a little trim tab on it aft edge?
The rudder behind the wheel would be handy and is a really easy wind
vane steering to build. If the rudder was mounted in pintals on the
transom it would be easy to lift it off and stow. It would also just
look like a steering vane which looks right smart on a Vega. I am
still kicking that around.
--
Doug Pollard
Albin Vega Sea Legs 2225
KK4YGO
On 07/15/2014 05:58 PM,
lewills30@... [AlbinVega] wrote:
As I recall the Brits are ahead of us on this. Steve would have more information but as I recall somebody on their side of the pond had developed a kit for a secondary rudder.I always just trick Lyric. When I want the stern to go to starboard I just say go to port three or four times times and invariably she goes to starboard.It is possible to swing the stern by reving the engine with the prop in gear. I've done it a couple of times in the past but forget the particulars on how to do it. You want to have a decent amount of room to do it in. Walt, Lyric To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.comFrom: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.comDate: Tue, 15 Jul 2014 19:50:16 -0400Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Springing off from the stern
John, been thinking about this and had a little trouble getting my
head around it. I kept wanting to think about a propellar in front
of the rudder. Where a spring line going forward on the boat alloys
you to go ahead and swing the stern out and then back away. I have
done it with my vega and it seems to work but not as good as when
you have propwash going around the rudder from the prop.
You said you put the helm to port
and that threw me off but it likely made no difference. I am
thinking the starboard stern cleat wound up being the pivoting
point as the boat was held in by the line to the dock cleat and
the other end going around the winch on the port side keept the
boat from moving forward so if you let it pay out slow the bow
could swing out. Since the propeller is on the center line of the
boat it is about 3 ft from the cleat and pivot point. So the prop
on a 3ft lever arm on a 27 ft boat turning into the wind did not
have any mechanical advantage but with the wind mostly off the bow
it didn't have that much area to press against either. If the
wind had been 90 deg. off the bow I would say there is a good
possibility you might swing the boat out but I suspect it may have
taken full throttle to push the bow out far enough to leave the
dock. I am not sure I would have guts enough to open the throttle
with the bow of my boat only a few feet away from another boat?
I am in a narrow slip the first on on a dock and one side of
it is a bulkhead. I come in slow and about 10 feet from the
bulkhead I put the tiller to port hard and put the engine in
revers my wife steps off the boat with a bow line in hand and ties
it off forward on the bulkhead a couple fenders for a cushion hit
the bulkhead and a little reverse throttle I tie off the rest of
the dock lines. The natural tendency to back to port keeps the
boat against the bulkhead as it backs and my wife holds it off. If
a strong wind is pus- hing her sideways onto the bulkhead we both
get off and walk her back. On the starboard side there is a
forty ft slip so there is a piling on my starboard side that is
right far ahead of my boat. When we leave the dock we untie and my
takes a turn around a shroud with the starboard bow line and I
creep forward and that swings us around bow out. She throws the
dock line on top the piling for a quick retrieval when returning.
There are boats in from of my slip and I can't get enough speed up
to turn before getting to those boats if the wind is coming from
the right direction so the turn around the piling is essential.
People are amazed that we can get in and out and we just except
the praise. Its the easiest slip in the marina to get in and out
of but we keep that to ourselves. So in fact my wife docks the
boat coming in and steers her on the way out. I was recently told,
Captain you can really handle that little boat. Thank you I
replied. My wife wasn't there to kick me.
-- Doug Pollard Albin Vega Sea Legs 2225 KK4YGO
John, been thinking about this and had a little trouble getting my
head around it. I kept wanting to think about a propellar in front
of the rudder. Where a spring line going forward on the boat alloys
you to go ahead and swing the stern out and then back away. I have
done it with my vega and it seems to work but not as good as when
you have propwash going around the rudder from the prop.
You said you put the helm to port
and that threw me off but it likely made no difference. I am
thinking the starboard stern cleat wound up being the pivoting
point as the boat was held in by the line to the dock cleat and
the other end going around the winch on the port side keept the
boat from moving forward so if you let it pay out slow the bow
could swing out. Since the propeller is on the center line of the
boat it is about 3 ft from the cleat and pivot point. So the prop
on a 3ft lever arm on a 27 ft boat turning into the wind did not
have any mechanical advantage but with the wind mostly off the bow
it didn't have that much area to press against either. If the
wind had been 90 deg. off the bow I would say there is a good
possibility you might swing the boat out but I suspect it may have
taken full throttle to push the bow out far enough to leave the
dock. I am not sure I would have guts enough to open the throttle
with the bow of my boat only a few feet away from another boat?
I am in a narrow slip the first on on a dock and one side of
it is a bulkhead. I come in slow and about 10 feet from the
bulkhead I put the tiller to port hard and put the engine in
revers my wife steps off the boat with a bow line in hand and ties
it off forward on the bulkhead a couple fenders for a cushion hit
the bulkhead and a little reverse throttle I tie off the rest of
the dock lines. The natural tendency to back to port keeps the
boat against the bulkhead as it backs and my wife holds it off. If
a strong wind is pus- hing her sideways onto the bulkhead we both
get off and walk her back. On the starboard side there is a
forty ft slip so there is a piling on my starboard side that is
right far ahead of my boat. When we leave the dock we untie and my
takes a turn around a shroud with the starboard bow line and I
creep forward and that swings us around bow out. She throws the
dock line on top the piling for a quick retrieval when returning.
There are boats in from of my slip and I can't get enough speed up
to turn before getting to those boats if the wind is coming from
the right direction so the turn around the piling is essential.
People are amazed that we can get in and out and we just except
the praise. Its the easiest slip in the marina to get in and out
of but we keep that to ourselves. So in fact my wife docks the
boat coming in and steers her on the way out. I was recently told,
Captain you can really handle that little boat. Thank you I
replied. My wife wasn't there to kick me.
-- Doug Pollard Albin Vega Sea Legs 2225 KK4YGO
Yes well I have been wanting a windvane for a long trip and I am
beginning to think the an ouboard rudder is the easiest and cheapest
place to mount one. I don't have a b problem with backing. I just
position my self so backing to port is what i want. I had owned a
boat without and engine for a long time so any engine at all is like
magic.
--
Doug Pollard
Albin Vega Sea Legs 2225
KK4YGO
On 07/15/2014 09:54 PM, walt judy brown
allore bestvega@... [AlbinVega] wrote:
beginning to think the an ouboard rudder is the easiest and cheapest
place to mount one. I don't have a b problem with backing. I just
position my self so backing to port is what i want. I had owned a
boat without and engine for a long time so any engine at all is like
magic.
--
Doug Pollard
Albin Vega Sea Legs 2225
KK4YGO
On 07/15/2014 09:54 PM, walt judy brown
allore bestvega@... [AlbinVega] wrote:
Hi Douglas.
Not sure about " You said you put the helm to port and that threw me
off but it likely made no difference." ??
I wanted boat to pivot to starboard (as you said, it was pivoting
about the starboard stern cleat) so tiller to port??
I take your point re being nervous about full power forward with
boat a meter or two ahead but with the starboard stern cleat
attached by a slip line to the shore, the boat "had to" tun to
starboard (unless the spring line had snapped :-( )..
So... Does anyone spring off with a bow spring using reverse power?
John
On 16/07/14 00:50, Douglas Pollard
dougpol2@... [AlbinVega] wrote:
Not sure about " You said you put the helm to port and that threw me
off but it likely made no difference." ??
I wanted boat to pivot to starboard (as you said, it was pivoting
about the starboard stern cleat) so tiller to port??
I take your point re being nervous about full power forward with
boat a meter or two ahead but with the starboard stern cleat
attached by a slip line to the shore, the boat "had to" tun to
starboard (unless the spring line had snapped :-( )..
So... Does anyone spring off with a bow spring using reverse power?
John
On 16/07/14 00:50, Douglas Pollard
dougpol2@... [AlbinVega] wrote:
The point I was trying to make about putting the rudder to port is
that with the prop behind the rudder and above the rudder the only
time the rudder works at all is when the boat is moving. So The boat
can't move forward because the spring line is holding it back and
the rudder is completely ineffectual. Once the boat is turned
outward and begins to move ahead that is time enough to turn the
rudder. I don't think you can spring off with the engine in reverse
unless you could hold the boat away from the dock with a boat hook
or something in reverse the boat would tend to back into the dock.
When I was a boy most of the people who lived on the creek I lived
on had sharpie sailboats those that had engines had no reverse. We
all docked alongside the pier so we came in head first and stopped
the boat by picking up a stern line with a boat hook and went around
the stern cleat to stop the boat. It also swung the boat around up
against the dock. Most sail boats have the prop shaft exit the hull
in fron of the rudder with a cut out in the rudder for the prop.
This works well because with the prop washing across the rudder it
lets you kick the starn back and forth port and starboard and the
same in reverse. The Vega is shallow hulled and to have to prop
ahead of the rudder would call for a very steep angle for the engine
to set at. Early engines didn't lubricate well if at too steep and
angle. The solution to that was to put the engine in the middle of
the cabin build a box around it and use it as a table. That would be
lousy in the small cabin of a Vega. So the prop above and behind the
rudder was a good solution for that time and the boat shape.
Tom Colvin built steel sailboats during the late 1960's and he put
Saab diesels in them and they had no reverse because there was not
transmission. So the unhandyness of Vegas propeller arrangement is
a fifty year old solution. Sailing a Vega calls for some different
solutions and some different things than other sailors sailing other
boats don't need to use. Having said that I think she is the finest
small boat out there considering she was a production boat designed
to be built by the thousands that could be used in the high North
Atlantic.
I don't often dock except in my own slip. Most of the time when I
go of cruising I anchor near a marina inflate my dingy and go in and
buy showers and get water and ice. I lay up to the fuel dock
sometimes and get fuel but usually get it in a jug and take it out
to the boat. I guess I am antisocial.
I thought your spring off solution was a good one and have made a
mental note to use it if I have a need. Sorry for writing a book.
--
Doug Pollard
Albin Vega Sea Legs 2225
KK4YGO
On 07/16/2014 04:28 AM, 'John A.
Kinsella' John.Kinsella@... [AlbinVega] wrote:
that with the prop behind the rudder and above the rudder the only
time the rudder works at all is when the boat is moving. So The boat
can't move forward because the spring line is holding it back and
the rudder is completely ineffectual. Once the boat is turned
outward and begins to move ahead that is time enough to turn the
rudder. I don't think you can spring off with the engine in reverse
unless you could hold the boat away from the dock with a boat hook
or something in reverse the boat would tend to back into the dock.
When I was a boy most of the people who lived on the creek I lived
on had sharpie sailboats those that had engines had no reverse. We
all docked alongside the pier so we came in head first and stopped
the boat by picking up a stern line with a boat hook and went around
the stern cleat to stop the boat. It also swung the boat around up
against the dock. Most sail boats have the prop shaft exit the hull
in fron of the rudder with a cut out in the rudder for the prop.
This works well because with the prop washing across the rudder it
lets you kick the starn back and forth port and starboard and the
same in reverse. The Vega is shallow hulled and to have to prop
ahead of the rudder would call for a very steep angle for the engine
to set at. Early engines didn't lubricate well if at too steep and
angle. The solution to that was to put the engine in the middle of
the cabin build a box around it and use it as a table. That would be
lousy in the small cabin of a Vega. So the prop above and behind the
rudder was a good solution for that time and the boat shape.
Tom Colvin built steel sailboats during the late 1960's and he put
Saab diesels in them and they had no reverse because there was not
transmission. So the unhandyness of Vegas propeller arrangement is
a fifty year old solution. Sailing a Vega calls for some different
solutions and some different things than other sailors sailing other
boats don't need to use. Having said that I think she is the finest
small boat out there considering she was a production boat designed
to be built by the thousands that could be used in the high North
Atlantic.
I don't often dock except in my own slip. Most of the time when I
go of cruising I anchor near a marina inflate my dingy and go in and
buy showers and get water and ice. I lay up to the fuel dock
sometimes and get fuel but usually get it in a jug and take it out
to the boat. I guess I am antisocial.
I thought your spring off solution was a good one and have made a
mental note to use it if I have a need. Sorry for writing a book.
--
Doug Pollard
Albin Vega Sea Legs 2225
KK4YGO
On 07/16/2014 04:28 AM, 'John A.
Kinsella' John.Kinsella@... [AlbinVega] wrote:
Douglas. That all makes sense.
It's very hard to describe this stuff in a post without pictures!
I take your point that the rudder has no effect till the boat starts moving.
But she will pivot out (rotate clockwise) once the power goes on.
All the best,
John V1447 Breakaway
It's very hard to describe this stuff in a post without pictures!
I take your point that the rudder has no effect till the boat starts moving.
But she will pivot out (rotate clockwise) once the power goes on.
All the best,
John V1447 Breakaway