Interested if anyone can shed light on Hunter B&R rig vs traditional rig? My yacht 2004 Hunter 33. Appreciate well documented DDW issues require sailing non DDW course to accommodate. Even considered radical approach, sell Hunter purchase yacht with more traditional rig Catalina, Jeanneau etc but note most also have swept back spreaders. Am I missing something here (most likely) but discussion on matter is nearly non existent on all yachts apart from Hunters? My question is why is the situation different? Shorter spreaders? Less angle?
Spreader conundrum
- Thread starter lbd
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Of course you can sail a B & R rig DDW. The mainsail simply presses on the spreaders and wears a tiny hole in the batten pocket where the battens rub against the spreaders.
My mainsail is now 18 years old and I long since gave up sticking little squares of sail tape over these ½" diameter holes. They never get any bigger though.
On any sailboat DDW means the sail is working like a "Barn Door". i.e. no proper airflow over it. This means much lower thrust and, in stronger winds and unless the boat is already up to hull speed, progress downwind is always faster if a very broad reach is sailed with the leech telltales flying..
The trick is to mark the mainsheet at the winch with a felt tip marker when the boom is an inch off the shroud so it doesn't wear the anodizing off the boom. Under these conditions the projected sail area is 87% of a similar sail let out to 90° and you will not detect any difference in boat speed. You will also avoid the dreaded "death roll".
But the risk of an inadvertent gybe is however greater and so it is desirable to rig a preventer.
It is desirable to do this anyway in any yacht if the time you are likely to be on such a course is likely to exceed the helmsman's ability to concentrate!!
My mainsail is now 18 years old and I long since gave up sticking little squares of sail tape over these ½" diameter holes. They never get any bigger though.
On any sailboat DDW means the sail is working like a "Barn Door". i.e. no proper airflow over it. This means much lower thrust and, in stronger winds and unless the boat is already up to hull speed, progress downwind is always faster if a very broad reach is sailed with the leech telltales flying..
The trick is to mark the mainsheet at the winch with a felt tip marker when the boom is an inch off the shroud so it doesn't wear the anodizing off the boom. Under these conditions the projected sail area is 87% of a similar sail let out to 90° and you will not detect any difference in boat speed. You will also avoid the dreaded "death roll".
But the risk of an inadvertent gybe is however greater and so it is desirable to rig a preventer.
It is desirable to do this anyway in any yacht if the time you are likely to be on such a course is likely to exceed the helmsman's ability to concentrate!!
Hunter's design was to eliminate the back stay since many sailors object to its presence. The solution was to have the spreaders weep back and have the stays pull the mast back. This design prevents sailing downwind withe main all the way out. This was one of the requirements that I decided not to go with a Hunter. Also the main traveler bracket make the sailboat look more like a power boat. My choice was a Catalina. I am very happy with its performance.
As posted dead downwind isn't the fastest way to get there.
I don't know that sailors object to having a backstay really.
Not having a backstay does allow a lot more roach in the main.
I don't know that sailors object to having a backstay really.
Not having a backstay does allow a lot more roach in the main.
A lot of the time, in the area I sail, I notice that I am either going into the wind or wanting to go dead down wind. Depending on the wind strength, how lazy I feel, and how fast I really want to get there, I will sail dead down wind from time to time. Seriously, the difference between riding the rum line or gybing back and forth seems to be about the same. True, going higher than dead down wind is faster, but you cover more distance. I usually take the lazy approach and ride the rum line, preventer on the boom, and autopilot running the course.
There is a compromise on any boat you purchase. You just have to decide what is more important to you.
There is a compromise on any boat you purchase. You just have to decide what is more important to you.
I often sail wing-on-wing in my B&R Hunter. After beating into the wind for a couple of hours, it's nice to run down wind and have lunch. Pole on the jib, preventer on the main and relax with a sandwich.
The B & R rig came out around 1975-76. Ron Holland designed a one tonner and used that rig to take advantage of the IOR system. It had a hydraulic head stay and vang with a fixed back stay. These IOR boats were very dangerous going DDW and reching and jibing was a faster approach when used properly. It eliminated the use of te blooper to try and stabilize the boat.The Hunter 34 was probably the first to mass produce the system. I had a Hunter Legend 35 with the swept spreaders but no B & R rig. Still I chose to heat the boat up going downwind and the extra speed more than made up for thee extra miles. A square plus B square = C square. Full battens also helps the sail shape.
The B&R rig wasn't born because someone didn't like backstays. The rig was designed to allow the use of a full roach main and a small (about 100%) headsail. Hunter tries to build boats that are friendly to novice sailors. When you use boom end sheeting with a B&R rig, you end up with a whole lot of sail that can be easily handled. You can sheet the main by hand without needing a winch, and the loads on the jib are light and easily handled, which makes for easier tacking. The tradeoff for the large, easily handled mainsail is the inability to sail DDW, but as many have said, it's not a very good way to sail anyway; deep broad reaches will get you there just as fast or faster with less rolling or potential for gybing.
Another advantage to the B&R rig is the the extra external bracing (more shrouds and diamonds) allows the use of a thinner mast section, which reduces weight aloft. This also reduces rolling effects and adds to performance.
The interesting thing about it is that after making this design decision to make the boat friendler to sail and still get great performance, Hunter then started adopting roller-furling mainsails. Which eliminates the full roach in the main, and adds weight aloft, negating all the advantages of the B&R rig. So it would seem to me that having a B&R rig with a roller furling main is the worst of all possible worlds.
Another advantage to the B&R rig is the the extra external bracing (more shrouds and diamonds) allows the use of a thinner mast section, which reduces weight aloft. This also reduces rolling effects and adds to performance.
The interesting thing about it is that after making this design decision to make the boat friendler to sail and still get great performance, Hunter then started adopting roller-furling mainsails. Which eliminates the full roach in the main, and adds weight aloft, negating all the advantages of the B&R rig. So it would seem to me that having a B&R rig with a roller furling main is the worst of all possible worlds.
Get a spinnaker
From the nautical dictionary:
A spinnaker is a triangular sail usually made of nylon for reaching and running with the wind to increase the sail area and increase the boat speed. It is used to create confusion and chaos on what would normally be a pleasant downwind sail.
From the nautical dictionary:
A spinnaker is a triangular sail usually made of nylon for reaching and running with the wind to increase the sail area and increase the boat speed. It is used to create confusion and chaos on what would normally be a pleasant downwind sail.
B&R Rigs
My Hunter Legend has a standard fractional rig with a backstay, not B&R. It is very similar to a Catalina 42 except that it is fractional. I have the same issues the B&R has with the swept-back spreaders though and like Donald says, there are wear spots on the battens, which I still repair. And, like several have said, sailing DDW isn't the best point of sail anyway for most modern boats. In races, you will see the faster competitors in Hunters, Catalina and Bennetaus jibing downwind to get the wind off the quarter for some apparent wind and a more stable platform. Even with a asymmetric spinnaker, you will be jibing downwind to gain the best VMG. For DDW, you really need a preventer on the boom and a pole on the jib to sail wing on wing for any significant duration.
My Hunter Legend has a standard fractional rig with a backstay, not B&R. It is very similar to a Catalina 42 except that it is fractional. I have the same issues the B&R has with the swept-back spreaders though and like Donald says, there are wear spots on the battens, which I still repair. And, like several have said, sailing DDW isn't the best point of sail anyway for most modern boats. In races, you will see the faster competitors in Hunters, Catalina and Bennetaus jibing downwind to get the wind off the quarter for some apparent wind and a more stable platform. Even with a asymmetric spinnaker, you will be jibing downwind to gain the best VMG. For DDW, you really need a preventer on the boom and a pole on the jib to sail wing on wing for any significant duration.
I've seen this comment several times on the roller furling main discussions and wonder if it's based on actual calculations on how much it really affects the balance or is it just forum theorizing. The majority of the weight of the sail is in the lower 50% of the sail and given the weight of a sail, how much weight would it really add aloft.
You have the sail. And the bulkier mast to accomodate the internal mechanism. And the roller assembly (big vertical rod inside the mast). And the bearings and other fittings at the top end of the roller assembly. It's probably the equivalent of sailing with a couple of crew members hanging from your spreaders.
Hmm, yeah partially true perhaps. Mast is bulkier, but in size only I would think, cross section of actual mast is probably close to std. mast. Rod yes would add weight, bearings very little, other fittings should be the same as std. mast. Not sure I'd say 4 - 500 lbs. ( depending if they're beer drinkers ) that high however.
Two mast cross sections from US Spars. One uses much more metal than the other. This also dosn't show the vertical window shade mechanism. The higher the weight, the more the moment, and the greater the effect on stability. The usual 'fix' to counteract weight aloft is to use a heavier keel, which slows the boat even more.
Using a furling main with a B&R rig is trading performance for convenience. That's neither good nor bad, it just is.
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