Splicing 12 strand

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Jun 11, 2004
1,733
Oday 31 Redondo Beach
I have been trying, with limited success, to splice eyes into some 3/8 12 strand single braid. The instructions make it look so easy! The part I have trouble with is pulling the tail through the standing part as in steps 3 and 4 of the attached link. I have a hard enough time getting the fid all the way through a fid length of the standing part let alone the taper and remaining part of the tail. Are there any tricks to this or does it just take more practice? Can you lubricate the fid and line with wax or anything like that? Thanks for any insight. Richard
 
M

Miles

I just did a bunch of those...

12 strand is actually pretty easy to splice once you get used to it. You shouldn't have to lubricate the fid but: 1) Be sure you have the right size fid, one size down might be easier. 2) Push the line toward the fid (and the eye end) so that the braid opens up as you work the fid through. 3) You might want to put a little tape around the area where you started the strand tapering so the ends don't get stuck. I found it quicker and easier than 3 strand but it does take a little practice. The secret is opening up the braid by compressing it towards the end. Happy splicing!
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
My way ... :)

12 strand single braid splices are not too complex in theory, just a bit fussy to get right. One fid length is 22 rope diameters. For 3/8 line that is 8 1/4 inches. The tail should be 3 full fids long (66 x 3/8 = 24 3/4 inches) Put a mark 3 fids from the end of the rope. This is where the eye starts. make your eye and put a mark on the standing part where the tail will go into the standing part. Lay the tail along the standing part and hold or tape the tail to hold the eye marks together. Mark the standing part one fid past the end of the tail (33" or 4 fids from the eye). Mark the tail all the way around the rope 1 fid (8.25") from the eye towards the end of the tail. This is where the taper should start. Remove the tape. Look closely at the rope. It may be 12 single strands braided or 12 pairs of 2 strands. divide the 2 fid taper by the number of strands. For single strand braids that would be 16.5 / 12 = 1 3/8" for 24 strand rope that would be 16.5 / 24 = 5/8". Mark the tail every 1 3/8" or 5/8" from the all around mark to the end. Put the tail on the fid (do not taper yet) and work the fid from the eye mark until it comes out of the standing part at the 4 fid mark (33"). Open the lay of the rope as you go, make sure not to catch any strands of the standing part as you go. It is easier to push the standing part over the fid than to push the fid through. Once the fid is through, you should be able to pull the tail through until you can see all your taper marks and the all around mark. Sometimes it helps to put a small fid or your pushing needle (if you are using the Samson kit) to hold the tail out of the standing part while you taper. From the all around mark pull one strand (or one of a pair) out of the tail. Hold the eye end of the tail so you don't disturb the lay of the braid in the eye, while you pull strands. The strands lay right and left, if the first one you pulled lays to the right, pull a left one at the next mark. Continue pulling one strand at a time at each of your taper marks, try to preserve the lay of the braid as much as possible. In 24 strand rope you should have perfect 12 strand rope after you have pulled one of each pair. When you get close to the end the rope will unlay. Now is the time to cut the strands close to the tail. When finished the taper should be 2 fids long smooth and gradual with a single strand at the end. Hold on to the tail and remove your place keeper. Pull the eye out to size until your eye marks line up. Hold the eye marks together while you smooth the standing part back down over the tail. Lock stitch the throat before you release the eye. Until the splice has been loaded and taken a set it will pull out unless it is lock stitched. The Samson directions may still call for a 2 or 2 1/2 fid tail. Samson found that it takes 3 full fids (1 fid un-tapered + 2 fids taper) of tail for the splice to be reliable and develop full strength. This is not critical in low load uses like fenders or dock lines, but for halyards and running backstays there have been failures with short tails. The short tails create a taper that is too steep, creating stress points in the splice. The 22 diameters = 1 Fid hold for all lines up to 3/4" or so. Some of the dimensions and techniques change for the heavy stuff. I hope that was understandable. :(
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
My rigger showed me a technique to splice 12 strand that takes less than 5 minutes, it's very easy.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,158
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
yes, alan....

...you're cool and it's neat that you have your own rigger.... please continue.
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
Joe

Sounds like you need some anger management, what's your problem?
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,158
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
I am so not angry......just curious

If your splicing technique is so very easy...why wouldn't you share it with the group... or else what's the point of your comment? "My rigger showed me a technique to splice 12 strand that takes less than 5 minutes, it's very easy."
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
The 5 minute splice ...

The 5 minute splice in 12 strand braid is the one that is shown on the back of Wal-Mart poly-pro line. It cannot be used where the line's full strength is needed (Spectra, Kevlar, etc.) Strength-wise it is no better than a knot. That makes it just fine for some uses. Brummel splices and mobius brummel splices were used for a time, but they have a much higher failure rate than the long tail splice. If the rope is furry low end polypropylene (short chain molecules), it is hard to damage the rope (it's low quality stuff anyway). Do it to a Amsteel running back and the mast is coming down.
 
Jun 11, 2004
1,733
Oday 31 Redondo Beach
Moody Buccaneer

Thanks for sharing so much of you time to reply. I'll give that a try. My biggest problem has just been getting the tail through the standing part, It seems like such a fight, even to get the fid through. I am using New England Regatta Braid if that makes a difference. Its kind of soft. Thanks again! And Alan: of course if you say you have an easy way of doing something that someone has a problem with and then you don't explain your method, someones going to ask about it. What's your problem with that? Why even respond with a comment like that?
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
Reggata Braid

New England Ropes shows what they call a lockstitch splice (a variation of a Brummel) where the tail passes through the standing part a few times before the tail is buried. They also call for that splice in their spectra line. This is surprising, since the pull to failure tests that I am aware of (at Samson) show that the lockstitching the tail through the standing part weaken the splice (not to be confused with using sail twine to stitch the throat). They also note that the weave of the braid may be too tight to get the untapered tail through the standing part. Soft ropes like Regatta Braid are tougher to splice because they have lots of friction in the surface compared to spectra. If the 3/8 fid is a tight push, the untapered tail will be a real "character builder" :) I have to ask, it is NEW rope? Used rope has none of the lubricant used when the rope is made and is many times harder to impossible to splice. There are a couple of things to try. Make sure your fid is as smooth as can be, polished fids are easier to work with. I coat of car wax will help it slide also. Massage therapy. Although Regatta has a soft hand to begin with, massaging and working the area of the rope that the fid will go through will ease the job. You could try silicone spray on the rope, but then you have to wash it out before the splice is put into service. If the 3/8 fid is still a hassle to get through, try pulling the first 2-3 taper strands out of the tail until the tail will fit into a 5/16 fid. As you get the reduced tail through, you can snip the taper strands as they enter the standing part. Then pull the tail out to continue the taper. Good luck, happy if I've been any help.
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
Moody Buccaneer

Beg to differ with your opinion on an Amsteel backstay. That is precisely what I have on my boat. It is now going on year 6. I plan on replacing it at the end of this season just as a routine service interval. Both ends of this backstay have the "quick" eye splice in them. I also use this same splice on my tapered spinnaker and genoa sheets and halyards. Not one has ever failed and I put some serious loads on them at times.
 
Jun 11, 2004
1,733
Oday 31 Redondo Beach
Moody Buccaneer

Thanks again. It is new rope but I didn't see anywhere that they said the weave may be too tight to get an untapered tail through. Their web site says its "easy to splice". Now I find out. Oh well, live and learn. At least now I know it may be the material and not just my technique. I'll try working the rope and smoothing and maybe waxing the fid and then just "build character". You've helped. Thanks! REGATTA BRAID 12-Strand S/Braided FEATURES: High strength wet and dry Low elongation Torque-free, non-rotating, non-hockling Round construction Easy to splice Excellent flexibility
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
Agreed

Alan, I agree that the Brummel/Lockstitch short tail splice has been a reliable splice for many applications. It was the first splice developed for the new materials. Good call on the routine replacement of the Amsteel, many people think that the stuff lasts forever! :) You might ask your rigger about going to Vectran for the new stay, to get away from the creep of Spectra. PBO is good stuff for standing rigging if you can afford it *pop The high-end stuff is going back to thimbles spliced in the eyes to match the dimensions of marine eyes so the same mast fittings and pins will work. The thimble also increases the radius of the eye, allowing smaller diameter rope to be used. When I was at Samson for "Riggers University" they told us that for ultimate strength, the Brummel splices and 2-2 1/2 fid splices had seen a higher failure rate than a simple 3 fid bury of the tail. The way I see it, I should give my customer what I believe to be the highest strength, lowest failure rate splice I can manage (besides which, the long bury splice is easy for me). Most rope is rated with spliced ends (they need an eye to pull to destruction. If the splice fails before the main part of the rope, the splice is the limiting factor for strength ratings. The long tail, long taper splice gives higher ratings for the same diameter. As the load is applied to the rope a Brummel or lockstitch puts a point load on the rope where the lay is distorted, and the splice fails at that point. High tech rope gets it's strength from long chain molecules, over time the molecules shear apart and the rope becomes weaker. Small radius bends under load (like a small eye on a shackle or a Brummel) accelerate the process. This was a big problem with Kevlar rope. The Kevlar doesn't like to turn corners and is so strong the rope slowly cuts itself inside the splice. Standing rigging (including running backstays) have to be oversize to get good service life. An issue with some of the high-tech ropes is UV resistance. Spectra has a UV resistant coating when it is used without a cover. The rope is built of 1000's of filaments then the coating is applied. If unprotected filaments are exposed by the splicing process, those filaments fail very quickly. When I do an exposed Spectra splice, I re-coat the eye and the standing part back to the 4 fid line, to insure the splice is UV protected. Strangely enough, it is not UV that rots the rope, it is oxygen and UV combined. Untreated Spectra is not effected by UV in space, since there is no oxygen to start the reaction. As the runners on customer boats with the old splice reach the end of their service life (3-7 years), I'm using the new splice. In many cases the diameter we used even 5 years ago can be reduced since we know that the line should be replaced in 3-5 years anyway. The only real way to size the line is to measure the loads on the rig with a load cell and work from there. If you are willing to replace the lines every year, frighteningly small diameters can be used. In Regatta Braid, ultimate strength is not an issue and any of the 12 strand braid splices should be fine.
 

Morrie

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Jun 3, 2004
86
Hunter 37-cutter Hilo, Hawaii
Moody ?

You said: "When I do an exposed Spectra splice, I re-coat the eye and the standing part back to the 4 fid line, to insure the splice is UV protected." Can you tell me what product you use to re-coat an exposed spectra splice? Thanks
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
It is a urethane.

Spinlock sells a retail product called RP25. The Retail package is 250ml #RP25/R It is very similar to the OEM stuff that Samson and the other cordage manufactures don't offer at retail. They don't even like riggers to have it ... mine comes in unmarked tins with no MSDS ... eeek!
 
Oct 25, 2005
735
Catalina 30 Banderas Bay, Mexico
My oops ... :(

Alan, I messed up. I got confused between Spectra/Dyneema and Vectran. Spectra has moderate UV resistance and creeps. Vectran has low UV resistance and does not creep. Uncovered Vectran might not be such a good choice for a backstay. My error. :)
 
N

Not important...

Splicing Wand...

Check out Brian Toss's site in attached link. He has a handy little tool that should help.
 
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