Spinnakers, Cruising Sails, Code Zero and Bloopers on 420?

pjb13

.
Nov 19, 2019
15
Hunter 420 Alameda
We are new 420 owners and now that we have figured out the actual dimensions of the boat given the confusion of naming etc. I would like to think about getting a downwind sail. Since we are double-handed, we don't want to fly a symmetrical kite with a pole as gybing would be a pain!
I am a bit confused about all the types of sails... and am thinking of either a cruising spinnaker that you fly without a pole, or adding a mini-sprit for an asym which we did on our MacGregor 26m. Any thoughts?
I was actually able to find the dimensions I 47.9; j 16.2 P 45.6 and E 19.3 so I can look to see if I might buy a good used one. I actually have three I bought for prior boats (C&C 37, MacGregor 26m).
I just love to see kits flying and in light air cruising to Mexico think we might use it. We are in SF area now so likely owuld be overpowered much of the time.
I see you can get entire set up of sail, sheets, sock and blocks for about $3K new from Sail Warehouse in Monterey.

Ideas and suggestions?
 

Dave Groshong

SBO Staff
Staff member
Jan 25, 2007
1,864
Catalina 22 Seattle
We offer the Doyle APC (Asymmetrical Power Cruiser) and UPS (Utility Power Sail).
You can employ an ATN snuffing sock, or the Selden Top Down furler:
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,102
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
3K sound like a fair price for your area. I am introducing my boat to an Asymmetrical sail this spring. You do not need to use a sprit to fly an asymmetrical sail. You do need the line, blocks and gear to raise, lower, furl or douse, and store the sail when the wind is stronger then your comfort level.

Since many light wind sails are purchased and flown very little by boat owners you might find a good one lurking in a resale warehouse or boat owners garage. Good idea to carefully inspect the threaded seams and sail cloth. Even when not being flown, the sails can age and degrade if storage has been less than optimal.

Good luck and share pictures when you get the sail flying.
 

pjb13

.
Nov 19, 2019
15
Hunter 420 Alameda
I saw the Doyle option...and at the boat show saw the furler for the kite which looked great though I think having that may restrict some of the sail angle?
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,102
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Having the Furler option is a real bank account hit. Looking at a furler option for the Asymmetrical is almost more than the cost of the sail.
 

pjb13

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Nov 19, 2019
15
Hunter 420 Alameda
I think the boat show version was under $1,000 but we had a smaller boat last year so maybe the price was for that?
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,102
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
I looked into the Harken system and for my 42 foot mast the rig was near $2500 as a general price.
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,102
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Yes. I read their report. While I can see the value and utilization of a furler, I have set the idea aside for a bit. I am putting money into other boat priorities. Note as a savings feature, you do not need the sock if you have the furler.
 

pjb13

.
Nov 19, 2019
15
Hunter 420 Alameda
So how do you store it? I assume the halyard is a sheet vs more like a headstay so you can stuff it in a bag? You pack it like a regular jite with foot and clew and head together with tapes run?
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,102
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Storage... starts with drying the sail.. I am getting the sock, so after flying the sail and pulling the sock down to capture it, Taking the sail into the boat and laying it out to dry is the first bit of pain. Then pulling the sock back down, Folding the sail in half, stuffing the center of the sail in a bag, with the Clew/tack and Head out the bag top ready to go. The Halyard is stowed on the mast or shroud, while the tack running gear is stowed in the boat with other running lines. I plan to run the tack line down the port side of the boat along side my head sail furler line. Attach the line to the base of the stanchions with soft shackles and cleat it on port side of the cockpit.

This is the current plan. Will have to test it and see what changes or adaptations will be needed to make it efficient.
 
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JRT

.
Feb 14, 2017
2,048
Catalina 310 211 Lake Guntersville, AL
I have a code zero on order from Precision and they sold me a turtle bag for the sail. It straps to the deck and is setup to allow raising and storing the sail easier. I wasn't ready to jump in to this new sail for any more boat bucks this year till I try it our. They are building the sail so if I want to get a sock later it will work with one so that is an option.
 

pjb13

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Nov 19, 2019
15
Hunter 420 Alameda
So you will hoist it with a spare halyard and fly it with just sheets and no pole or sprit?
 
Oct 22, 2014
21,102
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
So you will hoist it with a spare halyard and fly it with just sheets and no pole or sprit?
I hoist with a dedicated Spinnaker Halyard. The Tack is hanging on the bow roller with a block and snap shackle. It is adjustable by letting out or drawing in the Tack. The clew is drawn back or let out by the sheets. No pole or sprit needed.
 
May 25, 2012
4,335
john alden caravelle 42 sturgeon bay, wis
you can see how things are rigged. yes the halyard could be up 2 more feet. the tack could come down too. that said. the guy on the bow is a highly skilled foredeck crew that gets to try different sets any time he wants to see what might happen. you can see the sock halyards a well. these a sails are very easy to fly.

the last photo is of course the beating we sailed to get back home that day.
what goes down wind has to drive up wind to get home for dinner :)
 
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Likes: DrJudyB
Jun 25, 2004
1,108
Corsair F24 Mk1 003 San Francisco Bay, CA
Code zeros and asymmetric spinnakers are two very different Sails. One specialized for reaching and pointing, the other is specialized for reaching and running. One is specialized for getting upwind in light winds, the other is specialized for getting downwind in light air. Both of them will reach, if designed to do so.

Both are free flying, meaning you don’t attach them to a structural forestay.

First of all, a code zero: is designed to be flown is when the apparent wind is approximately at or above the beam. The area is roughly, very roughly, equivalent to 1.5 times as big as a 155% Genoa, and has a deeper draft for more power compared to a Genoa. It is a very powerful sail that can double your speed through the water in light winds, for example, in 3- 8 nets of true wind.

With a code zero, you can’t sail quite as close to the apparent wind as with a Genoa. you can sail as close as 35 or 40 degrees to the apparent wind, which corresponds to more than 50 degrees to the true wind.

Shapewise, the code zero has an almost straight luff with just a little bit of round, with a very low stretch, very strong flexible line seized in, around which it can be furled (usually). (Genoas have a hollow in the luff luff). The leech is shaped like a skinny spinnaker, with a bump at the shoulder. The draft, as mentioned above is deeper and more powerful than a Genoa. The shape is designed for use in light winds up to about 8-10 kts of true wind, which means it has to be strong enough for use in apparent wind speeds of 15 or higher.

Codes zeros made of cloths that don’t stretch can sail closer to the wind than stretchier ones. That’s why heavy weight spinnaker nylons 1.5 oz and 2.2 oz) are used in the less expensive ones, with 1.5 oz and heavier laminates used in the pricier ones.

Code zeros are almost always used on furlers because they are hoisted while sailing into the wind. (You can’t blanket them in the wind shadows of the mainsail during the hoist, as you can when sailing downwind.). The furler is usually a bottom up furler, with a flexible Anti-torque line between the top swivel and bottom swivel. The furling line is usually a continuous loop, not a single line, because you have need a lot of turns to deploy and furl it, more than a Genoa on a rigid furler.

One last thing about code zeros, if you want to sail really deep angles, you pole them out like a Genoa using a big whiskerpole, you can. But then you’re using the sail in parachute/push mode (drag) , and you’re not generating any lift. You can go faster than the wind by generating lift, but that doesn’t work in push mode.

in Contrast.... asymmetrical spinnakers are designed to be used when the apparent wind angle is on the beam or further aft. They can be used to sail at much deeper angles than a code zero. You can get versions of Asymms that are “all purpose”, or for either reaching or running, either in light air, or for racers usein heavy air. All purpose means it’s a compromise between either reaching high or running deep. An all purpose racing asymm is called an A2; an all purpose asymm for cruiser sees is often called a cruising Chute or gennaker.

The shape of an asymm varies depending on the angles that it’s designed to sail, but in general it look like lopsided spinnakers, with positive curves on both the luff and the leech. The luff has a moderately rounded shape, and the leech has a prominently wide shoulder, like a symmetric spinnaker. The leech is shorther than the luff, and the clew is fairly high, so that it sheets towards the back of the boat. The draft is comparatively very deep, and is closer to the luff than the leech. The total area of the asymm is much, much more than the code zero. It generates a lot of its power from lift rather than drag when it’s trimmed properly to go down wind.

As for what gear to use, remember that a furler for either a code zero or asymmetric has to clear the pulpit in a straight line from the tack at the bow to the top of the mast where the halyard goes. Most traditional pulpits get in the way unless you either a) modify the pulpit by removing the top rail or b) install a bow sprit kit.

So the cheapest free flying sail for a Hunter 420 with a traditional bow pulpit would be an asymmetric with a snuffer/ sock. You would need to put a block in front of the jib furler for an adjustable tack line, have a spinnaker halyard block on a short crane at the masthead, and install ratchet blocks near the stern for the sheets. You will need winches in front of the sheet blocks.

I’m out of time for now. Feel free to ask more questions.

Here’s a short video of us reaching with an asymm . You’ll notice we have the luff pulled tight, with the tack down as far as it goes to get the luff straight.



Here’s a short video of us running deep wth the asymm in super light winds outside the Golden Gate Bridge. The tack is eased up t allow the luff the curve, and the sheets are eased to let the luff rotate across the centerline to,windward. That allows us to sail really deep angles.





 
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