I think that most sailors have (MUST have?) an active and inquisive mind. Combine that with a somewhat boring day on the water and ... My boat came with an old spinnaker in a turtle, but no spinnaker gear. So it has quietly occupied the back of the v-berth for three years. Yesterday, in a fit of boredom, I decided I wanted to see what it looked like raised (I did lay it out on the grass once). So I dropped the jib, tied down one clew to the jib tack fitting, and a jib sheet to the other clew, and raised it on the jib halyard, and waited for all heck to break loose. Popped open and set as beautiful as you please. And yes, it's symetrical. Sets from beam on to just shy of dead downwind. Certainly not as efficient as the "proper" technique, but hey, it's fun and I get to go somewhere on a light wind run. Anyone see any problems with this? Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
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Jim LeBlanc
None whatever
Glad you tried it and it worked. A cruising spinnaker is configured much as you have described, with no pole, the tack eye at the bow, a turning block as far back as possible on which ever side you are flying it and one sheet from the clew through the turning block and to a jib winch. I fly mine by roller furling the jib first, then putting the chute up. Since the roller furling uses the jib halyard even when the jib is furled, I have installed a spinnaker halyard. Since you have a hanked on jib, you can take it down and put the spinnaker up on the same halyard. My cruising spinnaker is cut with less upper "shoulder" area than a full tri-radial spinnaker and is assymetrical, such that the clew is up higher than the tack, otherwise it looks like a "true spinnaker". In a racing situation this summer on another boat, in a "cruising class", we were allowed to use a cruising spinnaker without a pole. We did not have one, but we did have a tri-radial on board, as well as the pole, spinnaker winches etc, we just were not in a "spinnaker class". When the other boats in class with cruising spinnakers popped them and began to walk away from us in light air, we took down the 150 genoa and flew the spinnaker just as described, without a pole. I was surprised how well it worked and it dramatically improved our boat speed. Keep flying it in light air, only caution is that you may need a lot of crew to get it back down if the wind picks up.
Glad you tried it and it worked. A cruising spinnaker is configured much as you have described, with no pole, the tack eye at the bow, a turning block as far back as possible on which ever side you are flying it and one sheet from the clew through the turning block and to a jib winch. I fly mine by roller furling the jib first, then putting the chute up. Since the roller furling uses the jib halyard even when the jib is furled, I have installed a spinnaker halyard. Since you have a hanked on jib, you can take it down and put the spinnaker up on the same halyard. My cruising spinnaker is cut with less upper "shoulder" area than a full tri-radial spinnaker and is assymetrical, such that the clew is up higher than the tack, otherwise it looks like a "true spinnaker". In a racing situation this summer on another boat, in a "cruising class", we were allowed to use a cruising spinnaker without a pole. We did not have one, but we did have a tri-radial on board, as well as the pole, spinnaker winches etc, we just were not in a "spinnaker class". When the other boats in class with cruising spinnakers popped them and began to walk away from us in light air, we took down the 150 genoa and flew the spinnaker just as described, without a pole. I was surprised how well it worked and it dramatically improved our boat speed. Keep flying it in light air, only caution is that you may need a lot of crew to get it back down if the wind picks up.
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Les Murray
Only problem is sail performance
Tom, There is nothing wrong with how you used your spinnaker other than it isn't very efficient depending on the wind angle. Assymetricals are cut to accomidate a fixed tack, but then can't run very efficiently. A symetrical is just the opposite, designed to be moved so that it is always perpendicular to the wind. You may want to see if your local loft can recut it to be an assymetrical if that is the way you are going to use it. Les Murray s/v Ceilidh '86 C-36 #560
Tom, There is nothing wrong with how you used your spinnaker other than it isn't very efficient depending on the wind angle. Assymetricals are cut to accomidate a fixed tack, but then can't run very efficiently. A symetrical is just the opposite, designed to be moved so that it is always perpendicular to the wind. You may want to see if your local loft can recut it to be an assymetrical if that is the way you are going to use it. Les Murray s/v Ceilidh '86 C-36 #560
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Scott Wilson
Tom, how did you drop the chute
since I bought a boat w/o a pole but with a sym chute. How do you release the tack? Just slack the sheet until the chute collapes, so tension off tack allowing you to release it? How far off the deck was the tack and what kind of boat?
since I bought a boat w/o a pole but with a sym chute. How do you release the tack? Just slack the sheet until the chute collapes, so tension off tack allowing you to release it? How far off the deck was the tack and what kind of boat?
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Tom Monroe
Scott ...
Scott ... I was just playing around. I tied one clew to the jib tack point with an old bit of nylon line ... right at deck level. Since the whole thing seems to have worked, I'm going to experiment this weekend with a longer line, and then when I have it right maybe I'll make up a tack pendent (sp?) with a snap shackel on it. Should release OK if it doesn't have a deep "U" shape to it. Or maybe I'll just keep tieing the thing off. I can buy a lot of nylon line at Wal Mart for a lot less than the price of a snap shackel. It's a 22 foot O'Day, so we're not talking 60 foot chutes and huge loading here. I always read about people having trouble getting a spinnaker down, but years ago racing on Lake Michigan, we always just let go the pole or tack end. In this case, I walked up and cut my old piece of nylon line with my trusty pocket knife. Then, with no tension on the chute, it becomes a big flag out to leeward. You just haul in the sheet end while slowly letting down the halyard, stuffing everything down the companionway as you go. Two people do it simple as anything, one on the halyard, one on the sheet end. I think that in racing it's called a "peel", where you raise a second chute and "peel away" the first. Could be wrong on that ... I only raced on two boats, which sure doesn't make me an expert on terminolgy. I might add that it is my intent to reserve all this to relatively light air days ... say under 10 mph. The loading on a rig from a chute in heavy air is TREMENDOUS, and I have no idea whether an old O'Day 22 was designed for that. Hey, it's supposed to be FUN! Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
Scott ... I was just playing around. I tied one clew to the jib tack point with an old bit of nylon line ... right at deck level. Since the whole thing seems to have worked, I'm going to experiment this weekend with a longer line, and then when I have it right maybe I'll make up a tack pendent (sp?) with a snap shackel on it. Should release OK if it doesn't have a deep "U" shape to it. Or maybe I'll just keep tieing the thing off. I can buy a lot of nylon line at Wal Mart for a lot less than the price of a snap shackel. It's a 22 foot O'Day, so we're not talking 60 foot chutes and huge loading here. I always read about people having trouble getting a spinnaker down, but years ago racing on Lake Michigan, we always just let go the pole or tack end. In this case, I walked up and cut my old piece of nylon line with my trusty pocket knife. Then, with no tension on the chute, it becomes a big flag out to leeward. You just haul in the sheet end while slowly letting down the halyard, stuffing everything down the companionway as you go. Two people do it simple as anything, one on the halyard, one on the sheet end. I think that in racing it's called a "peel", where you raise a second chute and "peel away" the first. Could be wrong on that ... I only raced on two boats, which sure doesn't make me an expert on terminolgy. I might add that it is my intent to reserve all this to relatively light air days ... say under 10 mph. The loading on a rig from a chute in heavy air is TREMENDOUS, and I have no idea whether an old O'Day 22 was designed for that. Hey, it's supposed to be FUN! Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
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Jim LeBlanc
Can do it from the cockpit
To fly my cruising spinnaker, I use a turning block at the deck, on the bow fitting on my S2 7.3, as well as a turning block on the rail in the last hole on the side that I will fly the spinnaker. A line is run from the tack eye on the spinnaker, through the bow turning block and back to the cockpit. The sheet is run from the clew eye through the turning block on the rail and to a jib winch. The cruising spinnaker is put on the fore deck in a turtle bag, which is tied down to the deck. To raise the spinnaker, I roller furl the jib, raise the spinnaker with the spinnaker halyard to the top of the mast, then adjust the sheet and the tack line (all from the cockpit) to get the spinnaker flying right. To douse the spinnaker, release the tack line and let it run free, pull it in (under the boom and down the hatch) with the sheet, as the halyard is slowly let out. The spinnaker ends up in the cabin with the three lines still attached and no one has to leave the cockpit, except to initially put it on the fore deck. Works well on a mid twenty foot boat with two people. As the boat and spinnaker get bigger, more people may be required, but the principle is the same.
To fly my cruising spinnaker, I use a turning block at the deck, on the bow fitting on my S2 7.3, as well as a turning block on the rail in the last hole on the side that I will fly the spinnaker. A line is run from the tack eye on the spinnaker, through the bow turning block and back to the cockpit. The sheet is run from the clew eye through the turning block on the rail and to a jib winch. The cruising spinnaker is put on the fore deck in a turtle bag, which is tied down to the deck. To raise the spinnaker, I roller furl the jib, raise the spinnaker with the spinnaker halyard to the top of the mast, then adjust the sheet and the tack line (all from the cockpit) to get the spinnaker flying right. To douse the spinnaker, release the tack line and let it run free, pull it in (under the boom and down the hatch) with the sheet, as the halyard is slowly let out. The spinnaker ends up in the cabin with the three lines still attached and no one has to leave the cockpit, except to initially put it on the fore deck. Works well on a mid twenty foot boat with two people. As the boat and spinnaker get bigger, more people may be required, but the principle is the same.
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Scott Wilson
Hey Jim, how do you jibe
w/the cruising chute? Thanks for the info on the "running" tack line, makes more sense than a fixed line, although Tom's system "cut the bugger off" has the beauty of simplicity. Scott
w/the cruising chute? Thanks for the info on the "running" tack line, makes more sense than a fixed line, although Tom's system "cut the bugger off" has the beauty of simplicity. Scott
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Jim LeBlanc
Typically don't jibe the spinnaker
With a symmetrical spinnaker and a pole, it is possible to jibe by having a crew member go forward, unhook the pole from one clew, jibe the boat then re-hook the pole to the other clew. Easier to do on some boats than others. With a cruising chute having one clew tacked down to the bow, it would be difficult (the sail would have to be turned inside-out as you jibe over). I usually fly the chute coming back in from going out to weather. I decide which side to fly the chute on, then put it up on that side and leave it up till we are back in and ready to take everything down. Maybe one of the sail makers or racers has a idea on how to jib a cruising chute.
With a symmetrical spinnaker and a pole, it is possible to jibe by having a crew member go forward, unhook the pole from one clew, jibe the boat then re-hook the pole to the other clew. Easier to do on some boats than others. With a cruising chute having one clew tacked down to the bow, it would be difficult (the sail would have to be turned inside-out as you jibe over). I usually fly the chute coming back in from going out to weather. I decide which side to fly the chute on, then put it up on that side and leave it up till we are back in and ready to take everything down. Maybe one of the sail makers or racers has a idea on how to jib a cruising chute.
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Darrel
Lazy Sheet
To jibe a cruising chute, you have a lazy sheet that goes around the front of the head stay and then back to the cockpit. When you jibe you release the sheet and jibe the sail around the front of the head stay using what was the lazy sheet. America's Cup boats use this method and it is easily adapted to any boat.
To jibe a cruising chute, you have a lazy sheet that goes around the front of the head stay and then back to the cockpit. When you jibe you release the sheet and jibe the sail around the front of the head stay using what was the lazy sheet. America's Cup boats use this method and it is easily adapted to any boat.
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Scott Wilson
So Darel uses a lazy sheet and Jim is just lazy
Just kidding. So, for those who have sailed with both the sym and assym chutes, what are your thoughts: with a crew of 2 and with a crew of 4? I have a boat rigged for a pole that came with a sym chute, but no pole. Spinnaker poles are pricey. Should I find out whether my chute can be recut? I don't know that cut of chute I have, since I havn't taken it out of the bag. Probably wouldn't know even then.
Just kidding. So, for those who have sailed with both the sym and assym chutes, what are your thoughts: with a crew of 2 and with a crew of 4? I have a boat rigged for a pole that came with a sym chute, but no pole. Spinnaker poles are pricey. Should I find out whether my chute can be recut? I don't know that cut of chute I have, since I havn't taken it out of the bag. Probably wouldn't know even then.
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Jim LeBlanc
Thanks Scott and Darrel
I will try the "lazy sheet" next time I fly the asymmetrical chute. My opinion is that two people can handle a small asymmetrical chute with no trouble. With a symmetrical chute of almost any size, four knowledgeable people are needed. The pole has to have a pole lift, as well as a downhaul to hold it in position properly. You need a small, light, nimble but strong foredeck person (sometimes referred to as a "monkey")to handle the pole, and release the clew at the pole when it is time to take the spinnaker down. When making adjustments, you need one crew person on the pole and one on the sheet. With the helms person and the monkey, it takes four people. So, in addition to more hardware for a symmetrical chute, it takes more crew to fly it properly.
I will try the "lazy sheet" next time I fly the asymmetrical chute. My opinion is that two people can handle a small asymmetrical chute with no trouble. With a symmetrical chute of almost any size, four knowledgeable people are needed. The pole has to have a pole lift, as well as a downhaul to hold it in position properly. You need a small, light, nimble but strong foredeck person (sometimes referred to as a "monkey")to handle the pole, and release the clew at the pole when it is time to take the spinnaker down. When making adjustments, you need one crew person on the pole and one on the sheet. With the helms person and the monkey, it takes four people. So, in addition to more hardware for a symmetrical chute, it takes more crew to fly it properly.
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Frank Ladd
Scott
I definately get the pole or just experiment with the chute you have. Many symertrical chutes and be recut to be assymetrical by a good sailmaker. i definately get the pole if you don't alread have a whisker pole as the pole can serve that purpose too for you smaller headsails.
I definately get the pole or just experiment with the chute you have. Many symertrical chutes and be recut to be assymetrical by a good sailmaker. i definately get the pole if you don't alread have a whisker pole as the pole can serve that purpose too for you smaller headsails.
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Scott Wilson
Frank, how to measure for pole length?
Two feet past the forestay when horizontal, or do I have to measure the foot of the chute? Anyway, I have to examine my chute, so I might as well examine it hanging from the mast. Now lets see, . . . find a sheet, make that 2, a turning block, make that a snatch block, chute halyard, got that, willing spouse and about two miles from the nearest boat/spectator. Yep, ready to experiment. Scott
Two feet past the forestay when horizontal, or do I have to measure the foot of the chute? Anyway, I have to examine my chute, so I might as well examine it hanging from the mast. Now lets see, . . . find a sheet, make that 2, a turning block, make that a snatch block, chute halyard, got that, willing spouse and about two miles from the nearest boat/spectator. Yep, ready to experiment. Scott
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james rohr
2 people is a breeze
tom; i grew up not more than 40 mi from you in Olney. havn't lived there in over 30 yrs though. any way 2 people on a small boat with a chute isn't a big deal. my wife and i fly ours, it a sym. mast head on a 30 aprox 900sq ft. you just have to talk every thing through on the hoist and take down. we use a pole . preset and prefeed the guy. cleat it then hand me the sheet and the halyard. she jumps the hal and away we go. on take down we either let the guy run or pop or blow the guy which makes the chute a very big flag then haul it down the companion way.we do this up to about 12 knots apparent. beyond that we don't need the chute. btw a pole isn't a very expensive item on the smaller boats and its worth the expense. oh yes also the measurement you need for the pole if your doing it for racing with out a penality is your J dim which is from the front of the mast to a perpendicular above the stem of your boat. need more info just log on to any PHRF site and you will see the diagram of dimensions. capn jim of que pasa?
tom; i grew up not more than 40 mi from you in Olney. havn't lived there in over 30 yrs though. any way 2 people on a small boat with a chute isn't a big deal. my wife and i fly ours, it a sym. mast head on a 30 aprox 900sq ft. you just have to talk every thing through on the hoist and take down. we use a pole . preset and prefeed the guy. cleat it then hand me the sheet and the halyard. she jumps the hal and away we go. on take down we either let the guy run or pop or blow the guy which makes the chute a very big flag then haul it down the companion way.we do this up to about 12 knots apparent. beyond that we don't need the chute. btw a pole isn't a very expensive item on the smaller boats and its worth the expense. oh yes also the measurement you need for the pole if your doing it for racing with out a penality is your J dim which is from the front of the mast to a perpendicular above the stem of your boat. need more info just log on to any PHRF site and you will see the diagram of dimensions. capn jim of que pasa?
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Joe
Thanks for that information James.....
...Finally someone who knows what they're talking about. I had a comment on jibing an asymetrical: How you jibe it depends on the tack and halyard positions relative to the forestay. If you use the jib halyard and tack the sail inside the forestay, as Tom did, then you can jibe it just like the genoa. The sail essentially becomes a drifter, or a very lightweight genoa. For an excellent explanation on handling an asymetrical spinnaker go to the cruisingdirect tutorial page link below. By the way, the line that holds up the pole is called the topping lift. The one that tethers the pole to the deck to help adjust its position is called the foreguy.
...Finally someone who knows what they're talking about. I had a comment on jibing an asymetrical: How you jibe it depends on the tack and halyard positions relative to the forestay. If you use the jib halyard and tack the sail inside the forestay, as Tom did, then you can jibe it just like the genoa. The sail essentially becomes a drifter, or a very lightweight genoa. For an excellent explanation on handling an asymetrical spinnaker go to the cruisingdirect tutorial page link below. By the way, the line that holds up the pole is called the topping lift. The one that tethers the pole to the deck to help adjust its position is called the foreguy.
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james rohr
a couple more thoughts
item one; a whisker pole isn't robust enough to take the compression loads of a chute. if the wind picks up a bit before you get it off the pole, oh well there goes the pole in half. also whisker poles rarely have a bridle for topping lift and foreguy. item 2; recutting a sys chute into an asy. is more than likely not possible. panels are oriented totally different. check out the sailrite site and go to the design section and you'll see what i'm talking about. I personally don't have an assy. i have 2 sys chutes one 1/2oz radial head cut which is fine for running and a 3/4oz tri-radial which is great for reaching. the tri- radial isn;t as good for running but of the 2 i think its more versital if your only going to have one chute. there are times when i wish i had an assy. they are easier to hoist and douse, but can be a real pain in the you know what when jibbing. they arn't nearly as versital. USSAIL has on their site comparisons of drive relative to apparent wind angles for both. its a good place to go to get the most adv angles to sail. in my experience assy can be flown to about 120deg apparent effectively, if when you get to this deep angle you ease the tack to allow the chute to rotate to windward. if you don't ease it, then 100deg is about as far as you want to go.
item one; a whisker pole isn't robust enough to take the compression loads of a chute. if the wind picks up a bit before you get it off the pole, oh well there goes the pole in half. also whisker poles rarely have a bridle for topping lift and foreguy. item 2; recutting a sys chute into an asy. is more than likely not possible. panels are oriented totally different. check out the sailrite site and go to the design section and you'll see what i'm talking about. I personally don't have an assy. i have 2 sys chutes one 1/2oz radial head cut which is fine for running and a 3/4oz tri-radial which is great for reaching. the tri- radial isn;t as good for running but of the 2 i think its more versital if your only going to have one chute. there are times when i wish i had an assy. they are easier to hoist and douse, but can be a real pain in the you know what when jibbing. they arn't nearly as versital. USSAIL has on their site comparisons of drive relative to apparent wind angles for both. its a good place to go to get the most adv angles to sail. in my experience assy can be flown to about 120deg apparent effectively, if when you get to this deep angle you ease the tack to allow the chute to rotate to windward. if you don't ease it, then 100deg is about as far as you want to go.
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Scott Wilson
What about this product?
or is it just a $100 tack line? I have a symmetrical chute w/o a pole. Scott
or is it just a $100 tack line? I have a symmetrical chute w/o a pole. Scott
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