Spinnaker Reaches

[Alan]

On a spinnaker reach with a symmetrical spinnaker, as the AWA moves further forward, should the pole be lowered to tighten the leading edge or should the pole be raised to open the sail in order to keep it drawing?We have crew on board each holding one or the other opinion on this subject. Anyone have any feedback on this issue? ...how do you guys handle this on your boat?

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Pole Down

As the wind goes forward, the pole goes forward and down. The limit of the sail is when the pole is almost on the forestay and the luff is as stretched as it can be. Putting tension on the luff opens the leech, the sheet should be as far aft as possible.

 

[Mark]

I love it when you tail sail trim

nm

 

[filthy liberal scum]

Pole forward!

as awa goes forward so does the pole, but not necessarily down. with proper trim both the tack and clew on the chute should be level with each other. so its more a function of apparent wind strength than awa. if the clew is lower then the pole should be lowered but also should be kept level. so if the end at the tack is lowered then the pole also needs to be lowered on the mast. needless to say this is only possible if you have adjustable track on the mast. some one designs arn't allowed to have adjustable track. so its a dance between the trimmer and the person controling position of the pole.s/v Que Pasa? semi retired O'Day 30 racer. and i might add, a winner with the Winnabago on water.

 

[filthy liberal scum]

specifically what boat are we talking about?

that was a simplification and there are lots more things to deal with. s/v Que Pasa?

 

[Alan]

capn jim

The boat is a Soverel 33. Don't see that it would make any difference.If you would, please expand on the simplifications.

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

From North U, Racing Trim

... with the wind forward of the beam the spinnaker behaves most like a Genoa. Try a set of telltales halfway up your sail, about 15" from each luff. The telltales work on a spinnaker much as they do on a Genoa.For closer pointing in light to moderate air set the pole a little high. This gives the sail a flatter entry, which is a closer winded shape. This high pole position puts the draft aft, creating more heeling forces and drag so it is slow; but it is better than a collapsed spinnaker and it allows a few extra degrees of pointing.For heavy air close reaching try a low pole position, and pull the pole a foot off the headstay. This pulls the draft forward, flattens the sail, and opens the leech to spill excess power. This pole position creates less drag and heel, but the round entry does not point as high as a normal shape.-----Since the sail is sheeted in (and down) as you head up, the pole must also go forward (and down). Keep the tack and clew at the same height relative to the deck as Jim says. Pole up to pinch in light air, pole down to free the leech as the wind comes up.

 

[filthy liberal scum]

your sure not racing a winnabago!!!!!!

first you dealing with a frac rig. the soverell has an oversized pole by design. a bit of confusion about the simpl. the orig post was the simple version. the placement of the twings and their use is a lot more complicated. the exact height you try to work with on the chute are basically you are trying to keep the head lifted at the same time keeping the right shape in it. if your sailing with a much deeper angle then letting out some halyard will help rotate the chute to windward. this will vary depending on the type chute your carrying. most have gone to the tri-radial. which are considered reachers as opposed to runners. on my o'day i have a tri-radial, but, it has the cross panels in the midrift, so i guess its somewhere between a reacher and a runner. true tri's can be carried a higher awa with good vmg as opposed to runners which are a lot fuller on top. I've raced a lot on one s-33 on the chesie over the last 15 years and we always found that, sail it high and hot works best, makes for a lot of gybing though. keep her on her feet as flat as possible. except in extremely light air. the biggest mistake a lot of people do is to over trim. you want that luff to have just a small curl on the shoulder. if in doubt let it out.by keeping the pole high it gives you the best separation between the chute and the main. I always loved racing on this boat. 10knots true and it goes like a bat out of hell. is a real hand full when it kicks up though. hope this helps. any more questions or insights love to chat.s/v Que Pasa?

 

[filthy liberal scum]

i forgot

I'm assuming your pole has a bridle. when tight reaching the foreguy needs to be tight to keep the pole from skying in a puff. especially if the driver isn't quick enough on the helm to get the boat down. as moody said in stronger winds with a tight reach the pole needs to be set more like a gennie. with the sheet twing forward so that in a big puff when the trimmer eases off it lets the leech go up and off as opposed to out away from the boat causing more heel and a possible broach.It can definitely be said that flying a symmetrical chute can be very complicated and requires a crew working in unison, unless of course its you and the wife out just going nowhere in particular. if that's the case we pretty much set it, and i just drive to keep the boat under the chute where it belongs.  there have been entire books written about nothing but spin handling with just about every chute design, and wind conditions you can imagine. Plus throw in the fact that each design has its own set of idiosynchrocies. s/v Que Pasa?

 

[Alan]

capn jim, a winnabago!!!!!!

Hell NO is right! This sucker accelerates like nobodies business. We haven't got the penalty pole yet, that's next year. We're gonna ditch the #1 in favor of a #2 and the penalty pole which will cancel out and leave the PHRF unchanged. You're also right that this boat is not happy with heel. She loves sailing flat and high, but the helm is very light and you must concentrate to read the tiller. The groove is rather narrow.Moody, I think you're hitting on it with high pole/light air and low pole/heavier air. The question is, where that change over point is?Twings are setup roughly midshipsTJ, I would hardly call me an expert. But I do try to put as much as I can into sailing well. Boat looks great, good for you flying the chute single. Too many skippers are afraid to try and learn even with crew.

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Flat ...

You answered that yourself As long as the boat does not have too much helm or heel, you can raise the pole a bit to point in light air.As soon as the boat heels to much it goes back down to even tack and clew.When you are overpowered with the corners even, drop the pole and open the leach (you will have to fall off a bit too).The fastest setup is an Asymmetric Sail set on a conventional pole.Great reaching shape with the pole forward and down and not much (if anything) lost when sailing deep in a breeze. Gybing requires new skills and can be quite the fire drill.

 

[filthy liberal scum]

we have the winnabago!

some people in my club have referred to Que Pasa? as a winnabago on water. we may not be a fast boat but we sure are comfy. especially on the long trip home after a big long distance race. or after a long overnight screamer, it so nice to finish a race and still be in good shape after the guys on the ultra-lites have had the crap beat out of them all night. s/v Que Pasa?

 

[Alan]

Moody

Yep! we've got the Achute but I don't know if the crew is up for a Chinese fire drill yet. We'll be flying it off the penalty pole when it comes. Just have to work out the jibe procedure with that pole. Will require two tack lines for that setup.Damn I LOVE this stuff!! ;Dcapn jim, the trip home isn't usually too bad. We get to drink beers and talk over the race(debrief). Though I can remember trips back to the barn in our Melges 24 when it was howling and lumpy seas, they were no picnic.

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Simple ... almost ...

Here's what works for most.Two GuysTack LineA-Sail SheetsBig ring with shackleThe Tack Line is tied or spliced to a stout stainless ring with one or two strong snap shackles (two if you plan to do spinnaker peels).The Guys clip onto the ring and the sail clips to the shackle.A-Sail sheets are joined to a strop or lanyard 2-3 feet long. The lanyard is tied to the clew of the sail. Spectra sheets with soft eyes and the cover stripped make great sheets. The lanyard is spectra also with a soft eye. Run the lanyard through the eyes in the sheets then run the tail through the eye in the lanyard to make a cow hitch. Tie the lanyard to the clew with a tiny bowline.The pole lift and guy are used just as you do now, the tack line is the down-haul when the pole is aft.If you have the big pole, do inside gybes. The idea of the lanyard is to get the knot past the forestay before the clew of the sail. Fewer hang-ups on the forestay since the is no mass of junk at the clew of the sail.The knot at the "Y" also serves to give the foredeck crew a good hold for take-downs.The drill is to ease the guy and take the pole off the guy and fly the sail on the tack line through the gybe. The tack should be low during the gybe. Ease the sheet as you take up on the lazy sheet until the clew is at the forestay. As soon as the clew clears the forestay, haul the new sheet as fast as you can and make sure the old sheet is free to run.Your driver cannot hesitate DDW. The sail is hauled through just *before* the main is gybed. Have a foredeck crew help overhaul the sheet as the sail comes around. It should fill with a pop and then it needs a BIG ease. The driver should be steering from reach to reach. When sailing for VMG, the boat is kept heated up until the wind comes forward and you can hold the speed as you bear off. Now you can reset the pole on the new guy.Take downs are a hoot too ...Think "Mexican"