To all the sailors at sea. My husband suggested not to write because he thinks I'm going to get "smart" responses. I want to prove him wrong, so here it goes. We are rather new at this. We own a Legend 35.5. We were coming out of Herrington Harbour onto the Chesapeake on a Northerly wind 18-20 knots on the beam. Waves were only about 1 foot, maybe two. We had two reefs on (We can't put any more), and 1/4 of the head sail out, pretty tight. We did not lower the boom to stretch the main, however. But we did put the traveller out and opened the Main considerably to the point where it was fully against the spreaders. Still, the boat was heeling. Questions: 1) Could there be a knockdown in such cases? 2) Were we putting two much load on the Main? 3) Was there anything else we could have done to reduce the heeling, other than to have stayed in the slip? 4) In other words, were we safe under those conditions? We didn't want to venture much out onto the bay, so we turned back. thanks
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How much heeling?
Heeling is a part of the game, but if you felt unsafe, you did the right thing. If it wasn't fun, you did the right thing. Experience is a great teacher, and I admire you for at least getting underway and safely making it back. Many new sailors think that their boat should always heel less than it does and are overly worried about going over. But if you were looking for NO heel, then that would be impossible to achieve with NO sails out at all and 18-20 knots off the beam. I don't think you were in any danger of going over. Keep practicing, you will learn to expect and enjoy the heeling. You might ask an experienced sailing couple to ride along and give you more advice.
Heeling is a part of the game, but if you felt unsafe, you did the right thing. If it wasn't fun, you did the right thing. Experience is a great teacher, and I admire you for at least getting underway and safely making it back. Many new sailors think that their boat should always heel less than it does and are overly worried about going over. But if you were looking for NO heel, then that would be impossible to achieve with NO sails out at all and 18-20 knots off the beam. I don't think you were in any danger of going over. Keep practicing, you will learn to expect and enjoy the heeling. You might ask an experienced sailing couple to ride along and give you more advice.
Been there- had same questions
Hi, I can appreciate your hesitancy to expose yourself to this crowd. I am fairly new too but have gotten great advice on this forum. << warning - my opinion only >> The cheat sheet I created for my Hunter 31 tells me that, 15 knots 90 degrees to beam, we put in first reef and roll up 1/3 of our 130% genoa. We sail at 15 degree heel which seems to be our fastest orientation. We don't sail as fast flat because we have to spill too much wind. At 20 knots, we put in second reef and roll another 3rd of genoa. These are just guidelines because wind speeds and directions, wave forms and heights create an infinite number of variables. You have to get to know your boat. With no waves, I can't imagine a knockdown in 20 knots of wind. If you heel too much you'll spill wind and round up when the rudder loses its bite. If you are not used to heeling it takes some getting used to before you trust your boat. I know it took us a while, moving from a trailerable boat to a keel boat. The keel boat is VERY hard to knock over. Like I said, big wind AND big waves. Just one or the other is not likely to knock you over unless you are extremely careless. When racing we have left lots too much sail up in winds up to 30 knots. We felt like we were sailing on the edge but there was no problems. If we felt like we could sail faster by reducing heel, we would reduce sail. The only time we have come close to broaching was in high winds with large waves on Lake Michigan. Welcome to the group.
Hi, I can appreciate your hesitancy to expose yourself to this crowd. I am fairly new too but have gotten great advice on this forum. << warning - my opinion only >> The cheat sheet I created for my Hunter 31 tells me that, 15 knots 90 degrees to beam, we put in first reef and roll up 1/3 of our 130% genoa. We sail at 15 degree heel which seems to be our fastest orientation. We don't sail as fast flat because we have to spill too much wind. At 20 knots, we put in second reef and roll another 3rd of genoa. These are just guidelines because wind speeds and directions, wave forms and heights create an infinite number of variables. You have to get to know your boat. With no waves, I can't imagine a knockdown in 20 knots of wind. If you heel too much you'll spill wind and round up when the rudder loses its bite. If you are not used to heeling it takes some getting used to before you trust your boat. I know it took us a while, moving from a trailerable boat to a keel boat. The keel boat is VERY hard to knock over. Like I said, big wind AND big waves. Just one or the other is not likely to knock you over unless you are extremely careless. When racing we have left lots too much sail up in winds up to 30 knots. We felt like we were sailing on the edge but there was no problems. If we felt like we could sail faster by reducing heel, we would reduce sail. The only time we have come close to broaching was in high winds with large waves on Lake Michigan. Welcome to the group.
Answers
1) Could there be a knockdown in such cases? NO! Not enough wind 2) Were we putting two much load on the Main? NO! Hunter 35.5 is made to take the load on the mainsail. Don't sail with the Jib only in winds over 30. 3) Was there anything else we could have done to reduce the heeling, other than to have stayed in the slip? Eased out on the traveler. 4) In other words, were we safe under those conditions? Yes! VERY SAFE!
1) Could there be a knockdown in such cases? NO! Not enough wind 2) Were we putting two much load on the Main? NO! Hunter 35.5 is made to take the load on the mainsail. Don't sail with the Jib only in winds over 30. 3) Was there anything else we could have done to reduce the heeling, other than to have stayed in the slip? Eased out on the traveler. 4) In other words, were we safe under those conditions? Yes! VERY SAFE!
cool
I guess this is common, when the rail is in the waves I'm smilin and shes frownin It was the same with bikes the adrenilin was runnin when the knee was reachin and she was squezzeen really though the more we learn the more comfortable things become. I admire your candid questions ps what year is your 35.5 and where Herrington north or south?
I guess this is common, when the rail is in the waves I'm smilin and shes frownin It was the same with bikes the adrenilin was runnin when the knee was reachin and she was squezzeen really though the more we learn the more comfortable things become. I admire your candid questions ps what year is your 35.5 and where Herrington north or south?
Droop's Got it all right
I would add for #3. I would have tried honking down on the vang and ease the main sheet and traveler. Vang sheeting on a reach is very effective. This would take the main off the spreaders and flatten the main way down. With a beam reach the boat is on it's fastest point of sail. As the boat gathers speed the AW will go forward allowing the traveler to be trimed slowly. The other problem is the rolled headsail. A rolled up #1 is a VERY inefficient sail. It is definately not the same as a dedicated #3 or 100% jib. Except for being out of control, neither you nor the boat was in any danger.
I would add for #3. I would have tried honking down on the vang and ease the main sheet and traveler. Vang sheeting on a reach is very effective. This would take the main off the spreaders and flatten the main way down. With a beam reach the boat is on it's fastest point of sail. As the boat gathers speed the AW will go forward allowing the traveler to be trimed slowly. The other problem is the rolled headsail. A rolled up #1 is a VERY inefficient sail. It is definately not the same as a dedicated #3 or 100% jib. Except for being out of control, neither you nor the boat was in any danger.
Thanks guys!
Thank you all for the peace of mind. Very good information. Ours is a 1990 Legend. By the way Alan, the Vang! You're right. We forgot about it.
Thank you all for the peace of mind. Very good information. Ours is a 1990 Legend. By the way Alan, the Vang! You're right. We forgot about it.
Alicia, you did not say how much heel...
in your post. Our boat has a 150 genoa and I've had full sails up in 28 knots with the rail under water (about 40 degree heel) and felt safe. Fortunately I was solo, otherwise the Admiral would have me walking the plank. I'm not a trim expert. Though if the apparent wind was on a beam reach I would not have the main out quite so far. Also, easing the mainsheet and vang would allow the boom to rise and create twist at the top of the main reducing heel affect. Chances of a knock down in the wind conditions you describe are pretty remote. Usually it takes a large rogue wave catching you on the beam to do that. Terry
in your post. Our boat has a 150 genoa and I've had full sails up in 28 knots with the rail under water (about 40 degree heel) and felt safe. Fortunately I was solo, otherwise the Admiral would have me walking the plank. I'm not a trim expert. Though if the apparent wind was on a beam reach I would not have the main out quite so far. Also, easing the mainsheet and vang would allow the boom to rise and create twist at the top of the main reducing heel affect. Chances of a knock down in the wind conditions you describe are pretty remote. Usually it takes a large rogue wave catching you on the beam to do that. Terry
Find the 35.5 Video!
If you're curious what the 35.5 will do I'd recomend you viewing the 35.5 video which shows a group of them racing in 35 knots! I don't recal the name of the race but I'm sure someone at Hunter would remember. The next problem is trying to find one of the video tapes. It would be really good if one had a tape if they would burn dome DVDs of it. In fact, I would like one. The film was fantastic. Major white caps, gybing, and some flat out fantastic sailing. Of course they were crewed but never the less it would give someone and idea of what this boat is capable of. With regard to your boat, though, if it seems like it heels easily in "light" wind I would really suspect your sails. If they have never been replaced they may be "blown out", in which case the boat will heel relatively easy and in the 18 to 20 kts you're talking about seem to get out of control easily. A good loft would advise you to take some digital pictures of the sails, looking up the sail, and they could digitally analize them to check the draft. Just a thought. But you should try and see that video! It's REALLY great! P.S. You did the right thing - don't worry what the old man thinks!
If you're curious what the 35.5 will do I'd recomend you viewing the 35.5 video which shows a group of them racing in 35 knots! I don't recal the name of the race but I'm sure someone at Hunter would remember. The next problem is trying to find one of the video tapes. It would be really good if one had a tape if they would burn dome DVDs of it. In fact, I would like one. The film was fantastic. Major white caps, gybing, and some flat out fantastic sailing. Of course they were crewed but never the less it would give someone and idea of what this boat is capable of. With regard to your boat, though, if it seems like it heels easily in "light" wind I would really suspect your sails. If they have never been replaced they may be "blown out", in which case the boat will heel relatively easy and in the 18 to 20 kts you're talking about seem to get out of control easily. A good loft would advise you to take some digital pictures of the sails, looking up the sail, and they could digitally analize them to check the draft. Just a thought. But you should try and see that video! It's REALLY great! P.S. You did the right thing - don't worry what the old man thinks!
Take an instructor out for a day sail
The Admiral and I booked an experienced sailing instructor to spend a day with us when we picked up Lady Lillie, our first keel boat. He was great. In one day, he taught us: - about the safety systems and engine care. - tuning the standing rigging. - how to sail the boat right on all points of sail - what to expect, and what to do about it when it happens. - a good man overboard technique. - he answered all of our questions. - he made some excellent suggestions about our safety concerns which we have followed since then. - showed us how to maneuver the boat in the close quarters of the marina, and some great tricks on how to use a spring line to easily get into the slip. In short, our comfort factor, and real seamanship were both dramatically improved. David Lady Lillie
The Admiral and I booked an experienced sailing instructor to spend a day with us when we picked up Lady Lillie, our first keel boat. He was great. In one day, he taught us: - about the safety systems and engine care. - tuning the standing rigging. - how to sail the boat right on all points of sail - what to expect, and what to do about it when it happens. - a good man overboard technique. - he answered all of our questions. - he made some excellent suggestions about our safety concerns which we have followed since then. - showed us how to maneuver the boat in the close quarters of the marina, and some great tricks on how to use a spring line to easily get into the slip. In short, our comfort factor, and real seamanship were both dramatically improved. David Lady Lillie
35.5 Video
I thought Alan had a copy of this. I may be mistaken, and it may be someone else, but there is someone here on the site that has a copy. (They told me they'd make me a copy and send it, but I never got it. Hint. Hint.) And BTW, the video is of the Liberty Cup in 1992, in which Hunter built 10 identically spec'd boats to compete head to head, skippered by leading sailors. I'm fortunate enough to have one of the Liberty Cup boats, and have had it out in winds over 30, with waves running close at 6 to 8 feet on Lake Michigan. I was with some like-minded buddies and we all felt confident in the boat. On the other hand, I don't think my Mrs. would have let me leave the slip that day with her on board. T J
I thought Alan had a copy of this. I may be mistaken, and it may be someone else, but there is someone here on the site that has a copy. (They told me they'd make me a copy and send it, but I never got it. Hint. Hint.) And BTW, the video is of the Liberty Cup in 1992, in which Hunter built 10 identically spec'd boats to compete head to head, skippered by leading sailors. I'm fortunate enough to have one of the Liberty Cup boats, and have had it out in winds over 30, with waves running close at 6 to 8 feet on Lake Michigan. I was with some like-minded buddies and we all felt confident in the boat. On the other hand, I don't think my Mrs. would have let me leave the slip that day with her on board. T J
Hunter Sailing Association
Alicia, You have made one of two excellent connections for Hunter owners. Now that you know HOW, check out HSA - Hunter Sailing Association. We have two dozen boats from our club in Herring Bay. There are probably other members on your dock. Check us out at HSA1.org Carl Reitz Commodore HSA-1
Alicia, You have made one of two excellent connections for Hunter owners. Now that you know HOW, check out HSA - Hunter Sailing Association. We have two dozen boats from our club in Herring Bay. There are probably other members on your dock. Check us out at HSA1.org Carl Reitz Commodore HSA-1
Matter of experience
well, it's your first experience with HOW, adn this post shows just how much help is out there when you ask for it
"Safe" is very much in the eyes of the beholder, and experience level of the crew. Of course this is just my opinion. If you felt uncomfortable, then you made the right choice to head home. Even in severe weather, the experts agree that the boat will survive long after the crew has given up. Even in "the perfect storm" Mistral ( the sailboat eneroute to Bermuda) was found bobbling along in the water, completely in tact. Again, it's a matter of comfort. As you sail more, your comfort level with increasingly foul conditions will improve. As far as over stressing your rig.. if you've have had it inspected,and all is in good shape, the chances of catastrophic failure are slim, although the uncontrolled jibe will do quick work for you! It's never a good idea to run your sails against the spreaders, as chafe will wear through the canvas very quickly. Good luck with your trim, as I have no experience with your boat. Hunter Sialing associations are a GREAT resource, and great friends. I'm with the Maine Hunter Sailing Assoc. Please visit our site and read our newsletters, you'll get a lot out of them. www.mainehuntersailing.com Mark
well, it's your first experience with HOW, adn this post shows just how much help is out there when you ask for it
"Safe" is very much in the eyes of the beholder, and experience level of the crew. Of course this is just my opinion. If you felt uncomfortable, then you made the right choice to head home. Even in severe weather, the experts agree that the boat will survive long after the crew has given up. Even in "the perfect storm" Mistral ( the sailboat eneroute to Bermuda) was found bobbling along in the water, completely in tact. Again, it's a matter of comfort. As you sail more, your comfort level with increasingly foul conditions will improve. As far as over stressing your rig.. if you've have had it inspected,and all is in good shape, the chances of catastrophic failure are slim, although the uncontrolled jibe will do quick work for you! It's never a good idea to run your sails against the spreaders, as chafe will wear through the canvas very quickly. Good luck with your trim, as I have no experience with your boat. Hunter Sialing associations are a GREAT resource, and great friends. I'm with the Maine Hunter Sailing Assoc. Please visit our site and read our newsletters, you'll get a lot out of them. www.mainehuntersailing.com MarkThe Bay
We used to sail the bay on our 335 from Herring bay. We sailed Feng Shui in many different weathers. We would go sailing when the breezes were up in the 20 and gusting. Couple of times in the 30's. The boat handled it well. Most of learning to sail is getting out in many different kinds of wind. Try to work your way up and go as slow as you feel comfortable, but don't be afraid to experiment. The key is to get exposure and build confidence and technique. If you are unsure see if you can hitch a ride with more experinced sailors or get them on your boat. We knew many sailors in the bay who were afraid to sail in anything over 15 knots. Sailing is about learning and building your skills( of course have fun). We are currently sailing in the Caribbean for 1-2years and the experience we built in the Bay has made sailing here safe and fun. The trades blow 20-25knot most of the time and the XMAS winds blow in the 30's. PS We used to keep Feng Shui (hunter 335) and Makai (voyage 380 catamran) in Shipwright harbour. Loved sailing out of that area.
We used to sail the bay on our 335 from Herring bay. We sailed Feng Shui in many different weathers. We would go sailing when the breezes were up in the 20 and gusting. Couple of times in the 30's. The boat handled it well. Most of learning to sail is getting out in many different kinds of wind. Try to work your way up and go as slow as you feel comfortable, but don't be afraid to experiment. The key is to get exposure and build confidence and technique. If you are unsure see if you can hitch a ride with more experinced sailors or get them on your boat. We knew many sailors in the bay who were afraid to sail in anything over 15 knots. Sailing is about learning and building your skills( of course have fun). We are currently sailing in the Caribbean for 1-2years and the experience we built in the Bay has made sailing here safe and fun. The trades blow 20-25knot most of the time and the XMAS winds blow in the 30's. PS We used to keep Feng Shui (hunter 335) and Makai (voyage 380 catamran) in Shipwright harbour. Loved sailing out of that area.
Alicia,
Be sure to print this thread too. Save it in a place that gets visited by you often. Then read it again in a couple years or longer. It'll bring a smile to your face. Like this,
Be sure to print this thread too. Save it in a place that gets visited by you often. Then read it again in a couple years or longer. It'll bring a smile to your face. Like this,
35.5 is a great boat for those conditions
I have a 35.5 legend and it is a great boat to sail in the conditions you describe. From your description, it sounds like you did not have either the main or the jib trimmed properly. I don't put in my first reef until the true wind exceeds 16-18. It needs to exceed 30 before I put in the second reef. You stated that you did not lower the boom. The topping lift should always be loose to obtain proper sail shape. If the main was touching the spreaders, it was out way too far. Of further concern is that the head sail was only out 1/4 and pretty tight. I sail with a 135 and let it all out unless the winds exceed 30. The head sail needs to be trimmed in conjuction with the main. They really should be trimmed at about the same angles. The suggestion to take a lession is a good one; however, you could also hook up with a racing club. This would provide you with alot of sailing experience under all conditions. It is amazing how much you will learn from the right crew about sail trim. I suggest that you explain your situation to your local club race committee chairman and ask if he/she could suggest a boat that you could crew on to learn sail trim. TEven better, they might even be willing to put experienced sailors on your boat to assist you for a club race.
I have a 35.5 legend and it is a great boat to sail in the conditions you describe. From your description, it sounds like you did not have either the main or the jib trimmed properly. I don't put in my first reef until the true wind exceeds 16-18. It needs to exceed 30 before I put in the second reef. You stated that you did not lower the boom. The topping lift should always be loose to obtain proper sail shape. If the main was touching the spreaders, it was out way too far. Of further concern is that the head sail was only out 1/4 and pretty tight. I sail with a 135 and let it all out unless the winds exceed 30. The head sail needs to be trimmed in conjuction with the main. They really should be trimmed at about the same angles. The suggestion to take a lession is a good one; however, you could also hook up with a racing club. This would provide you with alot of sailing experience under all conditions. It is amazing how much you will learn from the right crew about sail trim. I suggest that you explain your situation to your local club race committee chairman and ask if he/she could suggest a boat that you could crew on to learn sail trim. TEven better, they might even be willing to put experienced sailors on your boat to assist you for a club race.
Re: topping lift
a topping lift is deffinately not a sail control. It should not be used while sailing. Many sailors I have seen leave their topping lift attach to the end of the boom which completely changes the shape of the main. While attached it prevents the mainsheet and vang from doing the necessary job of controling twist.
a topping lift is deffinately not a sail control. It should not be used while sailing. Many sailors I have seen leave their topping lift attach to the end of the boom which completely changes the shape of the main. While attached it prevents the mainsheet and vang from doing the necessary job of controling twist.
I guess the wind really blows in NY.
Here in Puget Sound the topping lift can be used to keep the weight of the boom from ruining mainsail shape to allow the boat to ghost along. Sure, you're not going to finish a race at that speed if you can't go faster, (time limit) but you might get to a cats paw or a current or,,,? What the hell, that's northwest sailing. Personally, I have a trained salmon. It takes a tow line and pulls me anywhere I need to go to win. (the salmon doesn't blow bubbles like a mammal.)
Here in Puget Sound the topping lift can be used to keep the weight of the boom from ruining mainsail shape to allow the boat to ghost along. Sure, you're not going to finish a race at that speed if you can't go faster, (time limit) but you might get to a cats paw or a current or,,,? What the hell, that's northwest sailing. Personally, I have a trained salmon. It takes a tow line and pulls me anywhere I need to go to win.
(the salmon doesn't blow bubbles like a mammal.)Alicia,
You started a nice little thread.... I sail a 420 on the lower Bay... We joke that there's no point in going out unless there's at least small craft advisories (20kt winds or better).... otherwise we've got to run the engine to get anywhere... But seriously, there are two mind sets out there when it comes to sailing... the racers and the cruisers... The racers ( who, with all due respect, are the real sailboat sailors) are all about sail trim and vangs and cunninghams and bla. bla. bla... They are constantly trimming everything trying to get another .000001 of a kt. out of the boat... ! The cruisers put up a sail (or 2, if they are really into it that day) trim a little bit (maybe), set the autopilot, sit back, relax, drink a beer, and chill... they go maybe 0.25 kt. slower than their racing counterparts but with infinately less frazzle. So, if I'd been sailing your boat that day, I'd have put out no main (the main creates most of the heal); let the jib out completely, trimmed it, smiled at the world, and enjoyed the day... with the boat healing very little and probable going within .5 kt of what it would have done with the main up and all the trimming going on... Oh, BTW... there was a comment made earlier that you shouldn't sail with just the jib... some people feel that B&G rigs (because of no back stay) can't handle the stress... NOT SO... Many of us have been offshore with just a jib up in winds much greater than 30 kts... the folks in the islands do it routinely... without any problems. Enjoy the Bay... in 20kts of wind its hard to really get into trouble, unless you're a powerboater.
You started a nice little thread.... I sail a 420 on the lower Bay... We joke that there's no point in going out unless there's at least small craft advisories (20kt winds or better).... otherwise we've got to run the engine to get anywhere... But seriously, there are two mind sets out there when it comes to sailing... the racers and the cruisers... The racers ( who, with all due respect, are the real sailboat sailors) are all about sail trim and vangs and cunninghams and bla. bla. bla... They are constantly trimming everything trying to get another .000001 of a kt. out of the boat... ! The cruisers put up a sail (or 2, if they are really into it that day) trim a little bit (maybe), set the autopilot, sit back, relax, drink a beer, and chill... they go maybe 0.25 kt. slower than their racing counterparts but with infinately less frazzle. So, if I'd been sailing your boat that day, I'd have put out no main (the main creates most of the heal); let the jib out completely, trimmed it, smiled at the world, and enjoyed the day... with the boat healing very little and probable going within .5 kt of what it would have done with the main up and all the trimming going on... Oh, BTW... there was a comment made earlier that you shouldn't sail with just the jib... some people feel that B&G rigs (because of no back stay) can't handle the stress... NOT SO... Many of us have been offshore with just a jib up in winds much greater than 30 kts... the folks in the islands do it routinely... without any problems. Enjoy the Bay... in 20kts of wind its hard to really get into trouble, unless you're a powerboater.
What is depressing the mast
Water drips down the teak that covers the mast inside the cabin. Now the mast is down, but nobody can advise what is causing moisture and why the rigging is so tight. Have heard this in not an uncommon problem but dont know how to instruct anyone on the repair.
Water drips down the teak that covers the mast inside the cabin. Now the mast is down, but nobody can advise what is causing moisture and why the rigging is so tight. Have heard this in not an uncommon problem but dont know how to instruct anyone on the repair.
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