Solent stay

AaronD

.
Aug 10, 2014
537
Catalina 22 9874 Newberg, OR / Olympia, WA
So, I'm hoping someone can tell me just how crazy I am (ideally, by providing a simpler solution). We're considering moving from hank-on headsails to a furling genoa (for all the normal reasons). We have a pretty complete selection of hank-on headsails, including light and standard 150s, a 110 working jib, and a storm jib (about a 70, I think). The cheapest option would be to have our standard 150 converted for furling.

The standard wisdom I've seen is that the genoa can be furled / reefed about 20% before the sail shape disintegrates completely, so the furling genoa would serve down to the equivalent of a 125 or so. But if we wanted to go a little smaller to the 110 or (heaven forbid we need it) the storm jib, is it completely nutty to consider adding a removable solent stay?

It would connect just aft of the furler (probably 6-12 in) and just below the masthead (I'd probably anchor a block to the solid masthead casting somehow). In normal usage, it would stay flat on the mast, and if we wanted to use a smaller headsail, we'd attach it to the bow, tension from below, and hank on a headsail normally.

I'd probably make the solent from ridiculously oversized dyneema (maybe 5/32 or 3/16 - large enough to take some chafing from hanks and still be overkill for strength. And cheap enough to replace if needed). The solent would be inside the headstay, and thus a little shorter. So we might have to shorten the headsail pennants a bit, but that's simple enough to do. We have an adjustable backstay, so we should be able to apply a little more backward tension to counteract the increased forward tension of the second stay.

From a little Internet reading, it looks like the removable solent system is a fairly standard (and increasingly popular) solution on larger cruising boats. Any reason it shouldn't apply on a C-22?

Or (much more likely), is there a far simpler way to accomplish the goal? That is: roller furling for normal usage and the ability to easily hoist a smaller headsail on the fly.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,385
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Well it would work for sure, but I did wonder about is necessity on a Catalina 22, a boat that usually used in a relatively protected waters.

But if you're keen to try it, I'd say go ahead. Your basic plan is sound. What you need to do is make sure you have a solid place to anchor it on the deck, and a way to add a lot of tension to the stay. Normally there is a block and tackle system added to the stay base to tension it up.

The tension is necessary because headstay SAG generates a lot of excess power in the sail. You want that to be as tight as possible in heavy breeze.
 
Feb 11, 2015
210
Catalina 22 Lake Jacomo
I have similar plans for my boat as well. I plan to add a furling system and either convert my existing 150 or have a new one built. I want to add a 170 or 180 free flying drifter of .75 oz nylon that will attach just aft of the furler. My storm jib has a heavy wire luff and I could convert my 110 to wire as well. The plan would be for the pennant to be made of wire and I already have wire to rope halyards. So I believe that by easing the backstay, before hoisting the storm or 110 and then re-tensioning the backstay, I should be able to put adequate tension on the luffs without the need for a solent to hank to.
 
Mar 13, 2011
175
Islander Freeport 41 Longmont
Another option, easier to manage and probably more doable than adding a new stay. Consider a furler with 2 tracks. Then you can convert your current sails to roller furler and change whenever you want/need. Racers who have roller curlers do this all the time and it's really not a big deal to change sails.

Just a t thought,

Good luck
 
Aug 2, 2010
441
J-Boat J/88 Cobourg
Another option, easier to manage and probably more doable than adding a new stay. Consider a furler with 2 tracks. Then you can convert your current sails to roller furler and change whenever you want/need. Racers who have roller curlers do this all the time and it's really not a big deal to change sails.

Just a t thought,

Good luck
My furler has two tracks and I have struggled to understand why. It seems to me that if I wanted to change out my jib for something smaller or bigger that I would first remove it and then install the new sail in the same track (assuming the luff tape matches). You cannot fly two sails at once nor could you have one furled and one flying as far as I can understand.
What is the reason for the two tracks?

Dan
 
May 1, 2011
2,318
Pearson 37 Lusby MD
As was pointed out in response #4: "Racers who have roller curlers do this all the time and it's really not a big deal to change sails." When I was on a Navy 44 equipped with two tracks, you could fairly quickly change out headsails during a tack - took a lot of foredeck coordination, but very doable. It's not something that I'd do when sailing short-handed.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,385
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Another option, easier to manage and probably more doable than adding a new stay. Consider a furler with 2 tracks. Then you can convert your current sails to roller furler and change whenever you want/need. Racers who have roller curlers do this all the time and it's really not a big deal to change sails.

Just a t thought,

Good luck
Not a big deal for fully crewed race boat to swap sails.... a short handed cruiser, a lot more work.
 
Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
If you use Dyneema for the Solent Stay, don't waste your money on a dramatic oversize. Use New England Ropes STS HSR (Heat Set Rope). This comes from the same factory where Dynex Dux is made (Teufelberger) and I'd bet my last dollar its basically the same stuff. The equivalent (in diameter) to your 1/8 SS wire rigging is 3mm. The SWL on the 3mm Dyneema is stronger than the wire by 2.9 times; trust me, I did the math twice. Creep is virtually nil on that line because it is heat annealed at the factory (heated and pre stretched under tension).
I'm using this stuff to replace all of my standing rigging and retaining my Turnbuckles for tension. I found the cheapest chafe cover is to buy some 3/16 Sta Set (when its on sale @ 40% off) and just pull the core and use the cover. I will doing a write up on the entire process at a later date including all the measurements, splices, sewing in the chafe covers, and pre tensioning the lines to set the splices.
BTW, Defender has great everyday prices on NER STS HSR... even better when on sale.
 
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Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
So the above was my blurb on Dyneema. I'm a fan... I think the 3mm size has great potential for rigging small boats and you actually save money when your subtract $12 to $15 for each mechanical swage.
I also forgot to mention that I believe (but not tested this theory yet) that standard Davis PVC snap-on chafe protectors for wire will fit on Dyneema line standing rigging. I have some ready to go but I haven't tried to put it on, mostly because I believe the process will be much easier when the lines are under tension.
 
Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
As far as a Solent Stay... I'm familiar with the idea but not used one myself in practice. For the C-22, the following recommendation is based on the positions of the stay-pins in the masthead; Why not attach the Solent Stay forward of the forestay? Since the spinnaker pin is above and forward of the standard forestay pin, attach the furler to the standard pin below it and the farthest back hole on the stem fitting. Attach the Solent Stay to farthest forward hole on the stem fitting as follows. I'm guessing this will cause fewer problems with furling the headsail, and as long as you still have a halyard available you can hoist whatever hank-on sail you line on the Solent Stay.
Edit... You might have clearance issues with the furling drum (no matter what position you place it on the stem fitting). This page on my thread shows a tang I welded to the back side of my stem fitting to allow furling drum clearance. In my case I am using a Harken Small Boat Furler with a wire luff in the headsail, the forestay will still ride forward of the drum. Technically I could also hoist a hank on sail on the forestay in this configuration.
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...-of-1981-c-22-swing-keel-10580.166613/page-30
 

AaronD

.
Aug 10, 2014
537
Catalina 22 9874 Newberg, OR / Olympia, WA
As far as a Solent Stay... I'm familiar with the idea but not used one myself in practice. For the C-22, the following recommendation is based on the positions of the stay-pins in the masthead; Why not attach the Solent Stay forward of the forestay? Since the spinnaker pin is above and forward of the standard forestay pin, attach the furler to the standard pin below it and the farthest back hole on the stem fitting. Attach the Solent Stay to farthest forward hole on the stem fitting as follows. I'm guessing this will cause fewer problems with furling the headsail, and as long as you still have a halyard available you can hoist whatever hank-on sail you line on the Solent Stay.
Edit... You might have clearance issues with the furling drum (no matter what position you place it on the stem fitting). This page on my thread shows a tang I welded to the back side of my stem fitting to allow furling drum clearance. In my case I am using a Harken Small Boat Furler with a wire luff in the headsail, the forestay will still ride forward of the drum. Technically I could also hoist a hank on sail on the forestay in this configuration.
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...-of-1981-c-22-swing-keel-10580.166613/page-30
Wouldn't that attachment put the solent ahead of the headstay and furled genoa, and prevent tacking? (I.e., you'd have to jibe the headsail outside like a spinnaker (definitely not something I'd want to do if the wind picks up). But maybe I'm misunderstanding your suggestion.

Re: Dyneema - yes, I'm a big fan too (from way back in my climbing days). I already replaced my backstay and various other bits with Amsteel. And I know it's more than strong enough; I only planned to size it up to account for a little chafe from the bronze hanks.
 
Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
Wouldn't that attachment put the solent ahead of the headstay and furled genoa, and prevent tacking? (I.e., you'd have to jibe the headsail outside like a spinnaker (definitely not something I'd want to do if the wind picks up). But maybe I'm misunderstanding your suggestion.

Re: Dyneema - yes, I'm a big fan too (from way back in my climbing days). I already replaced my backstay and various other bits with Amsteel. And I know it's more than strong enough; I only planned to size it up to account for a little chafe from the bronze hanks.
Ah ha... I didn't think about tacking with the hanked sail forward of the furler... Good catch. But wouldn't that cause the same issue with the furled sail when tacking? I mean, yes can furl it all the way in and back out to the other sides, but its the sheet that will get fouled on the solent stay right? I just don't know, have never done this set up myself.

Amsteel is strong yes, but it is more prone to UV damage and still has some measurable creep. Most dyneema lines have measurable creep, some worse than others. Only the heat set types have virtually eliminated it. If you want to read more into the subject check out Chicago Yacht Rigging's Blog, key word Dyneema. He does dwelled stretch and creep tests along with breaking tests. He took a Dyneema Back Stay that was retired after 5 years from a Tartan 10 and did a break test, "The backstay broke at 5,640lbs, or approximately 53% of original rated strength after 5 years of normal/heavy use. What’s funny is that that number is still stronger than the 1×19 wire it replaced"
 
Sep 30, 2013
3,292
1988 Catalina 22 central Florida
So, I'm hoping someone can tell me just how crazy I am (ideally, by providing a simpler solution).
How crazy are you?? Dude, you're crazy as a sprayed roach!! You want simple? Keep your hank-on rig!

(LOL ... hey, you asked for it! :biggrin:)
 
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Feb 11, 2015
210
Catalina 22 Lake Jacomo
Ah ha... I didn't think about tacking with the hanked sail forward of the furler... Good catch. But wouldn't that cause the same issue with the furled sail when tacking? I mean, yes can furl it all the way in and back out to the other sides, but its the sheet that will get fouled on the solent stay right?"
I think the idea is that the solent is detached from the stem fitting and stowed alongside the mast when not in use so it's not in the way when using the unfurled genoa.
 

AaronD

.
Aug 10, 2014
537
Catalina 22 9874 Newberg, OR / Olympia, WA
I think the idea is that the solent is detached from the stem fitting and stowed alongside the mast when not in use so it's not in the way when using the unfurled genoa.
Exactly.

That's also why basic Amsteel would be a potential here - creep shouldn't be an issue in a line that isn't under constant tension (it works for an adjustable backstay for similar reasons).

I probably won't end up doing this - the wiser choice is probably to hold off on furling gear until we can swing a new 135 too, which would furl well down to about the size of the 110 working jib (and then pray we never see weather that would call for the storm jib!) But if I do end up trying it, I'll post pictures here.

@CloudDiver: I'll be interested to see your writeup on STS-HSR standing rigging. Re-rigging is also in my future; I looked into synthetics a little, and had almost dismissed it because of the combined cost of Dux and Colligo terminators (as compared to the complete stainless set from CD for <$500). But if it's doable with STS-HSR and cheaper terminators, it might be an option after all, even though I probably need to replace my turnbuckles too. But that's a topic for a different thread, whenever you get to it.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
7,454
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
If you purchase a quality reefing/furling unit and a well made headsail, you can reef more than 20%. Problem solved.
My recommendation is to get the best reefing furler and headsail can afford... sail with it, reef it, experiment.. then... make your decision about trying to salvage your old hank on sails.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,385
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
While the idea of a synthetic inner stay is cool, going full synthetic on a Catalana 22 is dumping money down the drain. You will see no performance increase. It will not last longer.

It will look sweet however, which has gotta be worth something!
 
Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
Exactly.

@CloudDiver: I'll be interested to see your writeup on STS-HSR standing rigging. Re-rigging is also in my future; I looked into synthetics a little, and had almost dismissed it because of the combined cost of Dux and Colligo terminators (as compared to the complete stainless set from CD for <$500). But if it's doable with STS-HSR and cheaper terminators, it might be an option after all, even though I probably need to replace my turnbuckles too. But that's a topic for a different thread, whenever you get to it.
Colligo Dux is kind of a special 'brand name' and way over priced. WAY over-priced. The New England STS HSR is made by the same parent company, Teufelberger, that makes Dux. By the numbers the two lines are nearly identical, but STS HSR costs less and is available in 3 mm, Dux is not. Defender regular price for 3mm STS HSR is .95/ft while 1/8 1x19 wire is .99/ft. You do NOT need Colligo terminators. For the eye splices I use sail-makers thimbles on the main stays and standard open thimbles on the baby stays. Sail-makers thimbles are totally enclosed and cost about 5.50 each, they are much stronger but I don't think they are necessary. I've been back and forth with dozens of Rigger's blogs, websites, and opinions... Many Rigger's will use sail-makers thimbles because you know they are stronger and clients with more $$$ than common sense insist on the highest standards... but really, the regular stainless thimbles work just fine and I've seen synthetic rigging on big boats that use them, plus they are much less expensive and completely replaceable. FYI, Chicago Yacht Rigging mentioned that they stopped using thimbles all together!
Anyway, I digress... For tension, use your turnbuckles. No need to get into the lashing system for tension, thus the reason you don't need Colligo Marine terminators. I only mentioned that for the solent stay because in that application it would make sense since there would be no turnbuckle.
 
Sep 8, 2014
2,551
Catalina 22 Swing Keel San Diego
While the idea of a synthetic inner stay is cool, going full synthetic on a Catalana 22 is dumping money down the drain. You will see no performance increase. It will not last longer.

It will look sweet however, which has gotta be worth something!
No performance increase; agreed.
However, already saved 6 lbs of weight aloft (not really a big deal on C-22; agreed)
Money down the drain? See post above about price per foot of 3mm HSR vs 316 wire... already saved money. Plus it was on sale when I bought it, saved another 15%. Also, no machine cost for nicopress crimps or swages = $12 x 16 = $192 saved.
It will not last longer; agreed. 5 to 7 years expected, some will argue that by using chafe sleeves will also protect from UV so its reasonable that 10 years is possible. See Chicago Yacht Rigging blog post regarding Tartan 10 Stay that was retired after 5 years and tested for breaking = still stronger than wire at 53% of it its original rated breaking strength.

Overall, making my own rigging and learning, doing, improving = priceless.

Want me to rig Blue Jay? I'd bet I could do it cheaper than wire cost and actually oversize the Dyneema by one for additional creep insurance plus easier on the hands... and on your boat it probably WILL make a performance difference.

p.s. I'm building a specialized Rigger's Bench that will allow me to pre-stretch shrouds up to 52 ft in length, this just gets out the construction creep from the splices. On a 22 ft back stay I only 'grew' 2 inches at 600lbs load, pulled for 15 min. Checked the set, measured difference. Pulled the 600 lbs again and let dwell 12 hours... no more movement at all.
 
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