Solar Power

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Mr Mac

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Sep 29, 2013
91
None None Pensacola, FL
I am looking at DC options for our H25. I am going to rewire the entire boat (12/3 AWG Marine Tinned Boat Cable) for all our lighting and radio. Since the lighting will be LED all around and the stereo max current draw is 10A the 12 AWG should be okay. I am also installing a new panel.

Moving forward, I have decided to go with a single house battery since our outboard is a pull start and supplies nothing to the electrical system. That said, I am looking at a solar battery system and the one I looked at recently was the Coleman 18 Watt Solar Battery Charging Kit (will get 10% off for military disc.), or would that be overkill? Should I look at something smaller and do I need the controller?

Has anyone had any experience with one of these or would you recommend something else? Remember, we are day sailors on a small lake and our evenings will be at the slip.
 
Jul 1, 2010
990
Catalina 350 Port Huron
I used a 15 watt panel on my previous boat for loads similar to yours and it worked fine, except when we spent a week on the boat. It didn't have quite enough to keep up. We didn't have a radio (used a hand held) or stereo on the boat. You may want to go up a little in panel size, not down for sure. You do need a controller. I would look around as you can do much better price-wise than the one you found. Just one example below:

http://www.solarblvd.com/Solar-Pane...20-Watt-12-Volt-Solar-Panel/product_info.html

I got my current 75 watt panel from them and have had no problems with it.

I see that the coleman one you linked to comes with a controller. You could get an inexpensive one like this one below and still come out a little cheaper:

http://www.solarblvd.com/Charge-Con...5A-12/24V-Charge-Controller/product_info.html
 
Dec 7, 2012
515
Kittiwake 23, Irwin 43 .. Indianapolis / indianatown, fl
hello all

solar power is the way to go... in the marina where I keep my boat, there is no shore power on the docks... so I set up 2 - 30 watt solar panels on my boat... I searched long to find the right deminssions of each panel to fit me boat... and I got a solar controller for it too....

the controller does several things for you...
1st it keeps the battery from feeding back to the panels and running them....
2nd when the batteries are fully charged, it sets it up as a trickle charger to keep them full....
3rd it lets any excess power to automatically be shifted to run anything onboard, and not draw from the batteries...

my set up powers cabin lights, navigation lights, depth finder, fridge, stove, stereo, and water pump.... I have been out on the boat for up to 4 days, and not run out of power yet... so far it has served all my needs, but I have noticed the 2 panels don't keep up with the total charge used .... it is close, but over several days staying on the boat, I do notice the charge does decrease... if I can find 2 - 50 watt panels to fit my boat, I will get them... I like the total independance of the batteries out on the water... I like to anchor out a lot and enjoy the evenings on the water...

sincerely
Jess
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
You only need 2 wires for 12 v DC.
and in addition, if you are upgrading to LED lighting, 18ga will carry plenty of power for the LED's, but i wouldnt go smaller than 16ga. the 12ga is way overkill

the heavier the wires you use, the fuller and less managable the rear of your fuse/circuit panel will be.

12 ga is about right for the feed to the VHF radio, due to the run to it from the battery and it needs juice if you are transmitting on high power.
I would also use either 12 or 14ga on any 12v power ports you may have, as you never know what you will be plugging in to them in the future

max current draw on your music radio at full blast (without an auxillary amp) is only about 3.5 amps. the 10 amp fuse it has installed doesnt mean it draws that much current, but that is what the wiring will take without melting down before the fuse blows...


as for solar panel installs, you wont be in the overkill area till you get around 160watts.... if your creative you will always find a use for the extra power.

we dont know how you will use your boat, but if you like to camp on it, and cruise away from the dock for a few days, then for your needs now and planning ahead for a couple of years of increasing electrical needs, a 60watt panel would be the very minimum. anything less and you will have dead batteries before you make it home. unless you dont listen to the music radio, or use the depth sounder or VHF... and batteries dont like to be drawn below about 50% because it shortens their life span.

the small panel will work for a day of sailing and maybe an over night on the boat, then letting it sit for a few days to recharge the battery, but not for multiple day usage.
 

SeaTR

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Jan 24, 2009
408
Hunter 22 Groton
centerline has a lot of good points, but remember the power panel is only a DISTRIBUTION center, not the power source. To be sure that you have the needed power for any given trip, add up the loads' amperage draw and estimate the duration of having each load "on" (in hours), multiply those two factors, this will be the expected 'power draw' for each load. Now specifically what you have is [amps x hours = "amp-hours"] for each load, then add up all of these individual load amp-hours (ah) results for the trip. That will be your total anticipated power usage.

Now, If you are planning on using ONLY the battery(ies) for the trip, compare the total estimated ah for the trip with the amp-hour rating of your battery bank when fully charged to see if your present installation is anywhere near your expected power (ah) usage. If you know what solar amp-hour input that you will have for the duration, add that to you battery bank's ah capacity, then compare the total estimated ah for the trip with the new total amp-hour capacity expected to be available (battery bank + solar).

Key point: local weather / sunlight conditions may vary from NWS / weather.com predictions, so be conservative in your estimate of expected solar power contributions.

Also remember, you do NOT want to use all of your battery banks' amp-hours as you may discharge the battery bank too low, causing damage to them. For example, cell reversal - wherein one or more of the cells (12V batteries typically have 6 cells) in a particular battery may actually become a power LOAD vs SOURCE (i.e., USING vs PROVIDING), driving the chemical reaction on the cell's plates in the opposite direction -- VERY BAD, ...OR depending the type of battery(ies) you have, excessive H2 gas production, during which without proper ventilation could cause an explosive concentration to develop locally -- BAD.

Last NOTE: What I've laid out here is only an ESTIMATING method, your battery's amp-hour rating (capacity) is based on a standard set of conditions for discharge ... typically an 20-hour discharge rate at 80 deg F. If ambient temperaturre is colder when using the battery, the capacity drops off. If your actual discharge rate is higher than the 20-hr rated discharge rate (on average), then again, capacity drops off.

Have fun with the rewiring and let us know how it works out (include pix) !!
 

SeaTR

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Jan 24, 2009
408
Hunter 22 Groton
One more... besides the excellent point that centerline makes re: 12ga wire workability and space considerations, you'll be saving a pretty penny or two by only installing the awg wire that is NEEDED for the particular load / installation ! Copper let alone Marine copper wire has gotten (is getting) more and more expensive quickly with no turnaround in sight.
 

Mr Mac

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Sep 29, 2013
91
None None Pensacola, FL
Thanks all for the insight. Since the wire size seems to be getting a lot of attention, let me address it first. I can certainly drop down to 14/2 or two rolls of 14 AWG for everything since the biggest current draw will be the stereo. Lighting will consist of (all LED) four cabin lights (galley, dinette, head and V-berth), the bow marker lights and masthead light. I do plan to add a light up on the spreader for the cockpit, and, finally, our VHF is a handheld.

As for overnight or extended days on the boat, probably not going to happen out on the water. Lake Carlyle is only nine miles long (navigable) by three miles wide and only a few coves that aren't overly secluded. At best, we may stay a night or two on the boat but it will be most likely at the marina in the slip where we can connect to shore power.

She comes out of the water Wednesday and I'll be able to take a long, hard look at all the wiring and make my final determination on what needs to be done and then get to it. I already know the distribution/fuse panel is the first thing to go!



 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
all of the lights in the boat needs to have their own wires running to them, NOT wired in series. even if you had 15 LED cabin lights on all at the same time, you are between 1 and 1.5 amps, so 14ga is still overkill by a lot.... the 12ga wire will be fine from the battery to the distribution panel as it isnt going to be very long and will still be able to carry a considerable amount of power it should be fused according to the wire size and run of it.
any DC power ports/outlets should be on their own individual circuit with their own fuse (again, according to the wire size and run of it, OR according to the outlet amp rating, whichever is less).... and wired directly to the downstream terminal of the main battery switch

the formulas that seaTR has given is all good information, but to put the panel sizing formula into a single sentence, would be to say, "figure out your estimated power consumption, add 10%, then double it".... because that will give you the proper size of the panels you should have to insure it stays ahead of your needs with the changing weather conditions. (the panel rating can be deceiving if you dont know how to read the specs, and you wont get that kind of performance from it in real life)
its nice to be able to charge our phone and use our laptop at the boat, while listening to the radio and a cabin light on.... and still have enough power to use our GPS, sounder and VHF to sail the next day...

you can use less panel, but the cost is so little to get more if you install a custom setup that it really doesnt make sense.
buying a ready made setup (like the coleman) is where you are throwing away money, because you still need to do the total install yourself... all you are getting with a "ready to install" setup is a fancy plastic frame around the panel. the custom setup is way more affordable and upgradable


unless you have power available at the dock where you are moored, running out of battery is always frustrating, but even more so when you are out on the water and your nav electronics go dead....

as for you not camping on the boat for a couple days at a time... its very unlikely that this wont happen in the future:D
 
Dec 1, 2007
74
-Hunter -23 Kenora, Ontario, Canada
Hi Mac,
I day sail as well, with shore power at the dock, and occasionally do an overnight or two. I debated about solar as my motor does not charge, but instead I keep an extra charged SLA battery under one of the bunks. I have never had to use it yet. I keep the radio on all day, and the depth sounder while sailing. I also went to LED interior lighting, big savings there.

I have an automatic charger, and a small automotive voltmeter and a cigarette plug attached to the port side of the fuse box:
http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/picture.php?albumid=1534&pictureid=9932
I find this small panel adequate for my needs, yours may be different. Good luck!
-Chris
 
Aug 11, 2011
1,015
O'day 30 313 Georgetown MD
I started out with a 15w solar panel with two controllers, one for each battery. This topped up the batteries when at the dock over a few days, but was useless in keeping up with the amount of power I was using on a daily basis when sailing

I went with a 100w unit and now can run the VHF, the stereo, the auto pilot and keep my cell phone plugged into the cigarette outlet, without a drop in voltage from the batteries. At the end of the day, I can run my anchor light all night and use the LED cabin lights as needed without running down the batteries completely.

Taking the advice from the knowledgeable people on this list, I basically looked at how much power I would be needing with everything running and got a solar panel with enough watts to cover and added an extra 20 watts.

I am basically running my equipment without decreasing the amount of power in my batteries.

I am going to see how much of a difference it will make when I plug in my laptop to keep the battery topped up.

The panel I bought came with 20 feet of cable and a single controller. Having already installed two controllers I used them and have an extra, now sitting on the shelf.
The panel is framed and I created a stainless tube frame off the back of the transom railing to hold it. There is enough room on the frame to put a bigger unit if I want to, but for now I am good with what I have.
 

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Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
I started out with a 15w solar panel with two controllers, one for each battery. This topped up the batteries when at the dock over a few days, but was useless in keeping up with the amount of power I was using on a daily basis when sailing

I went with a 100w unit and now can run the VHF, the stereo, the auto pilot and keep my cell phone plugged into the cigarette outlet, without a drop in voltage from the batteries. At the end of the day, I can run my anchor light all night and use the LED cabin lights as needed without running down the batteries completely.

Taking the advice from the knowledgeable people on this list, I basically looked at how much power I would be needing with everything running and got a solar panel with enough watts to cover and added an extra 20 watts.

I am basically running my equipment without decreasing the amount of power in my batteries.

I am going to see how much of a difference it will make when I plug in my laptop to keep the battery topped up.

The panel I bought came with 20 feet of cable and a single controller. Having already installed two controllers I used them and have an extra, now sitting on the shelf.
The panel is framed and I created a stainless tube frame off the back of the transom railing to hold it. There is enough room on the frame to put a bigger unit if I want to, but for now I am good with what I have.
Robert,
I have heard quite a few stories like yours when i was doing my research to see if solar would work for me and what size i should get.
the story is a classic example of what we think will be sufficient for our needs without the total understanding of how solar panels and the controllers work.
none of us want to spend anymore than we have to to get our needs met, but without the knowledge of what we are working with, some of us will invest a substantial amount of money in something, and soon find out that for another few dollars we could of had what we really needed, and should have gotten, but didnt.
its always cheaper to do it right the first time, no matter what it is, even if the initial investment is a few dollars more, because after you find out the first attempt isnt quite good enough and have to pay more to get it right on the second attempt, which you WILL do if you have learned anything. by then you will have way more money and time invested.... but some of us end up smarter because of it....

and, as for how much power is overkill,.... when is the last time you ever heard someone say, "darn, i sure wish i didnt have so much solar power capability on my boat"...:D
 
Aug 11, 2011
1,015
O'day 30 313 Georgetown MD
Centerline, I agree with what you wrote. Luckily my initial spend was only $95 before my upgrade. The new panel was about $265 which included the controller, wires and shipping. The frame however, being made out of 1" stainless was a lot more. That was closer to $500 before I was finished which included mega charges for shipping. I went for strength and quality over cost. I'd hate to loose it in a heavy wind storm.
 

Mr Mac

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Sep 29, 2013
91
None None Pensacola, FL
Well, things have changed a bit on what I plan to do with the power in the H25. I picked up the engine ('07 Tohatsu/Nissan 9.8) and found out it is an electric start so will I need to add a second battery or can I run it all off the one?
 
Dec 8, 2011
172
Hunter 23.5 New Orleans
Hi Mr. Mac

Boats with large engines which cannot be easily hand started need to have a dedicated battery for engine starting. I assume you are able to start your 9 hp with the pull cord if necessary, thus I think a second battery is needless weight, expense and complication.

Kind regards

Hugh
 
Nov 7, 2012
678
1978 Catalina 30 Wilbur-by-the-Sea
I myself would do 2 house batteries in parallel and at least 15w of solar. 50w would be better just because.

I suggest 2 house batteries because if your out for a long weekend rocking the radio, lights etc and on the last day something goes bad and you need VHF and the bilge pump it would give a bit more to play with.
 
Mar 20, 2012
3,983
Cal 34-III, MacGregor 25 Salem, Oregon
Hi Mr. Mac

Boats with large engines which cannot be easily hand started need to have a dedicated battery for engine starting. I assume you are able to start your 9 hp with the pull cord if necessary, thus I think a second battery is needless weight, expense and complication.

Kind regards

Hugh
I tend to agree here....
when you hit the start switch on a small outboard, the battery isnt being hit with a 150-200 amp draw all of a sudden.... a 10hp outboard will draw about 50-60amps during startup so it wont be hurting the battery like a big load would....
and with the back up pull starter, you wont be without a way to get the motor started even if you run the battery dead.

no matter how many batteries you install, if you dont have enough charge capacity to keep the single battery you have charged up with the electrical demands that you have, all the other batteries are just dead weight and wasted money in the boat.

to explain.. one of the worst things you can do to a battery is draw it down below about 50% of its capacity... and you cant tell this by how dim your lights are getting, because by the time the lights start dimming, you are way, way lower than the 50% limit...
so at this point you are damaging the batteries.
you can have more batteries to carry and deliver more total amps, and if you dont draw them down too far you will be fine, but how do you know where you are at on the state of charge? because when they are below the 50% limit, all you have are more batteries being damaged....
batteries do have a life expectancy and drawing them down too far is greatly shortening that time. from 5-8 years to 2 years or less...
assuming you paid money for them and they will need to be replaced again after they go bad (usually about 2 seasons), this is bringing the cost of operating the boat up quite a bit. and the extra battery(s) is/are taking up space, weight and maintenance time in the boat, as well as wasting money because it could all be prevented by the addition of the proper size solar panel to begin with.
some boats need more than one or two batteries because of their exceptionally high power demands or a dedicated starting bank, but for our smaller boats, 2 batteries are plenty and for most of us, 1 is sufficient.

it depends on how long you plan to have a boat, but a good investment on a boat is a good solar system, and if you get a quality setup, you can always remove it from the old boat and use it on the new one when you upgrade. its an investment that pays for itself....

in general there are only 2 types of solar installs that are done on boats.... the type that gets installed on boats that dont get used much, barely adequate to keep the single battery charged when no one is around.
and the type that gets installed on boats that people use often and is depended on to deliver when the switch is thrown, it makes no difference how many batteries the boat has cuz the solar array is sized to match the bank, usage and weather conditions for the area....

the second type of install is the one that can be referred to as an investment because it can add more actual value to the boat than the actual cost of the components, where the first type of install does not add value because it is an insignificant addition, even though it may keep the battery charged as long as it doesnt get used much...

understanding the batteries, how they work and how much demand is going to be placed on them, will determine how many you need in the bank, and these two factors will determine how much charge capacity you will need.... and understanding how solar controllers work and how panels are rated will help you determine how big of panels you should have to build a system you can depend on for many years to come.
 
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