Dear Owners, I'm planning on purchasing a West Marine BatterySAVER PRO5W solar panel to provide a "trickle" charge to the batteries while the boat is at the mooring during the season. Where and how can this panel be mounted to provide a "permanent" and weather proof connection to the batteries?
- Status
You may want a larger charger
If you have more than one battery. I have purchased the flexable panel (11 watts) from e-marine-inc.com. I leave it sitting in the cockpit. I does a good job as a trickle charger and can recharge a weekend's worth of battery use in one week (provided you don't use the fridge). It's flexable, you can step on it and can be mounted anywhere. I believe it's about the same price as the model you are considering.
If you have more than one battery. I have purchased the flexable panel (11 watts) from e-marine-inc.com. I leave it sitting in the cockpit. I does a good job as a trickle charger and can recharge a weekend's worth of battery use in one week (provided you don't use the fridge). It's flexable, you can step on it and can be mounted anywhere. I believe it's about the same price as the model you are considering.
C310 Solar
Frank David's right. Before you buy the smallest, check out a larger one for the same price. In order to do what you are considering properly, you may want to do some research on solar systems. JackRabbitt Marine is a good source, as are the West Marine Advisors. An archive search on this site may help, or end up confusing you even more!
You'll need to know 1. Your house bank capacity in amp hours - this will determine how much input you should need based on the 0.7% discharge rate of wet cells. If you have gels, you don't need to offset self-discharge, but will want to begin to replace what you've used in a weekend, as David suggests. You have to decide what it is you want to do (offset self discharge - only if you have wet cells, or keep the batteries up during the week, or even assure that they're fully charged if you go to a larger array) 2. The output in amps of the solar panel you'll be buying - you need this to determine if you need a regulator. Over 1 to 1 1/2 % of the output in amps compared to your house bank amp hour capacity requires a regulator to avoid overcharging the bank. 3. How you'll wire it. Usually starting batteries are fine since they use so little amp hours starting the engine. Even with self discharge over two weeks (assuming you miss a weekend on the boat), you should still have more than enough to get your engine started. And, if you have a good sized solar panel on your house bank, you could use them to start the engine. This is all because you don't want to leave you battery switch ON when you're away. Don't know if you have a combiner or echo charger installed. I just don't know how your boat is wired, or how new it is or how much electrical work you or a PO have done. The simplest way to wire the solar panel is to your house bank, because that's the one that needs the most input. If you haven't already, I suggest, as many other have before me, Calder's Boatowners Manual. You should also try a Google search on solar panels, and try other resources to size your panel to get the most bang for your bucks. You may also want to consider an evn larger panel, so that if you do your energy budget (you have already, right?) you may not even have to run your engine over a few days. Where and how to mount it permanently? We keep ours on the dodger, tied with bungee cords and one corner has a plastic coated metal pendant (like lifelines) with loops and a lock. The wire runs down through the upper left corner of the top of the hatchboards, under the companionway stairs and under a rug in our galley, through the access door to our water heater under the galley and to the negative distribution post and to the psotivie of the house bank. It's been there for four years and I have the equipment to rewire it through a waterproof deck plug, but haven't bothered to since we haven't tripped over the wire yet! On our C25, we just clipped the cockpit locker padlock through one of the grommets in the panel, and kept the panel horizontal with a bungee cord to something on the other side of the cockpit. Stu PS We have a 315 amp hour house bank, separate 60 ah starting battery, a West Marine battery combiner and an 11 watt solar panel, with a stock 55 amp alternator with an AutoMac voltage regulator, and a Freedom 15 inverter charger. We've been out on the hook for four days, Adler Barbour fridge on (although we leave it off during the night), and have not needed to start the engine to keep our 12 v system going. You HAVE to do the math in an energy budget to size the system correctly. PPS where you put it on your boat is easy - YOU decide because you're the only person who knows where the most sunlight falls most of the time on YOUR boat. PPPS you have a great idea and are headed in the right direction - just keep up your research and do your homework (dang, and we thought sailing would get us away from that!!!
Frank David's right. Before you buy the smallest, check out a larger one for the same price. In order to do what you are considering properly, you may want to do some research on solar systems. JackRabbitt Marine is a good source, as are the West Marine Advisors. An archive search on this site may help, or end up confusing you even more!
You'll need to know 1. Your house bank capacity in amp hours - this will determine how much input you should need based on the 0.7% discharge rate of wet cells. If you have gels, you don't need to offset self-discharge, but will want to begin to replace what you've used in a weekend, as David suggests. You have to decide what it is you want to do (offset self discharge - only if you have wet cells, or keep the batteries up during the week, or even assure that they're fully charged if you go to a larger array) 2. The output in amps of the solar panel you'll be buying - you need this to determine if you need a regulator. Over 1 to 1 1/2 % of the output in amps compared to your house bank amp hour capacity requires a regulator to avoid overcharging the bank. 3. How you'll wire it. Usually starting batteries are fine since they use so little amp hours starting the engine. Even with self discharge over two weeks (assuming you miss a weekend on the boat), you should still have more than enough to get your engine started. And, if you have a good sized solar panel on your house bank, you could use them to start the engine. This is all because you don't want to leave you battery switch ON when you're away. Don't know if you have a combiner or echo charger installed. I just don't know how your boat is wired, or how new it is or how much electrical work you or a PO have done. The simplest way to wire the solar panel is to your house bank, because that's the one that needs the most input. If you haven't already, I suggest, as many other have before me, Calder's Boatowners Manual. You should also try a Google search on solar panels, and try other resources to size your panel to get the most bang for your bucks. You may also want to consider an evn larger panel, so that if you do your energy budget (you have already, right?) you may not even have to run your engine over a few days. Where and how to mount it permanently? We keep ours on the dodger, tied with bungee cords and one corner has a plastic coated metal pendant (like lifelines) with loops and a lock. The wire runs down through the upper left corner of the top of the hatchboards, under the companionway stairs and under a rug in our galley, through the access door to our water heater under the galley and to the negative distribution post and to the psotivie of the house bank. It's been there for four years and I have the equipment to rewire it through a waterproof deck plug, but haven't bothered to since we haven't tripped over the wire yet! On our C25, we just clipped the cockpit locker padlock through one of the grommets in the panel, and kept the panel horizontal with a bungee cord to something on the other side of the cockpit. Stu PS We have a 315 amp hour house bank, separate 60 ah starting battery, a West Marine battery combiner and an 11 watt solar panel, with a stock 55 amp alternator with an AutoMac voltage regulator, and a Freedom 15 inverter charger. We've been out on the hook for four days, Adler Barbour fridge on (although we leave it off during the night), and have not needed to start the engine to keep our 12 v system going. You HAVE to do the math in an energy budget to size the system correctly. PPS where you put it on your boat is easy - YOU decide because you're the only person who knows where the most sunlight falls most of the time on YOUR boat. PPPS you have a great idea and are headed in the right direction - just keep up your research and do your homework (dang, and we thought sailing would get us away from that!!! Thanks David & Stu
Gentlemen, And I thought this would be simple. Some problems with lack of info. The boat has not been made yet.The dealer has informed me that the batteries are 2 4D's. No info on amp hr capacity as of yet.The factory installed charger is 20 amps. No info on draw for the refrig. Electronic load as follows: GPS 10 Watts (1 Amp) Depth 1 Watt (0.08 Amp) Knot 1 Watt (0.08 Amp) Wind Speed 1 Watt (0.08 Amp) Auto Helm 10 Watts (1 Amp) Stereo/Cd ??????????? Refrig ??????????? If I dedicate battery 1 to starting and battery 2 for house loads, I figured on using the solar panel to recharge the house battery only. Does this make sense ??
Gentlemen, And I thought this would be simple. Some problems with lack of info. The boat has not been made yet.The dealer has informed me that the batteries are 2 4D's. No info on amp hr capacity as of yet.The factory installed charger is 20 amps. No info on draw for the refrig. Electronic load as follows: GPS 10 Watts (1 Amp) Depth 1 Watt (0.08 Amp) Knot 1 Watt (0.08 Amp) Wind Speed 1 Watt (0.08 Amp) Auto Helm 10 Watts (1 Amp) Stereo/Cd ??????????? Refrig ??????????? If I dedicate battery 1 to starting and battery 2 for house loads, I figured on using the solar panel to recharge the house battery only. Does this make sense ??
It makes sense to me...
Frank, but Stu has given you good information about determining what your electicial loads are going to be and then going from there. To do it right, you have to do the math. I like to start with the simple (and hopefully cheaper) solutions first, and then work up from there. I have two group 27s (210 amp hours) and one starting battery. I'm on a mooring for the first time this year so i bought the 11amp flexable charger to keep the batteries topped off during the week and replace anything that i've used during the week (including the weekend)when i'm on the mooring. I always run my diesel for at least 30 minutes when I go out. This solution works for me. When I go on a weekend trip(2 days) my batteries have enough amp hours so that I don't need to even use a solar panel. This is because I don't use my refridgeration when I'm on the hook, I use ice. If I did, then that would be a different story. Here's an example of my use. Each summer my wife and I go on a two week trip to martha's vinyard from Boston. We motor sail the entire way. When my engine is running I turn on the refridgeration because I feel the alternator does a good job keeping up with the load. (There are a couple of blocks of ice in there anyway, so it doesn't cycle on frequently)When I get to edgartown, I'm on the hook for 7 days. I run my diesel for an hour a day to replace what I use and heat up some water. Now with the panel I don't have to start the engine to replace what I've used, but then again, I'm not using the fridge or a blender or any high drawing things. What type of cruising to you do? If you're like me (an occasional weekender), then I think you're most likely fine with your proposed setup. At least to start with. If you're going on an extended cruise and your energy demands are higher, then solar panels may not be enough. You may have to try a wind generator etc. Again, I think you start simply and then go from there. If you do decide to go with hard panels and Catalina is building your boat, I think it would be cool if they could actually build them right into the boat. If you had a hard dodger made, installed on the roof of that, or somewhere flush on deck. A much cleaner look. Hope this helps. Dave Bousquet C-30#5367 C'est Sea Bon Boston
Frank, but Stu has given you good information about determining what your electicial loads are going to be and then going from there. To do it right, you have to do the math. I like to start with the simple (and hopefully cheaper) solutions first, and then work up from there. I have two group 27s (210 amp hours) and one starting battery. I'm on a mooring for the first time this year so i bought the 11amp flexable charger to keep the batteries topped off during the week and replace anything that i've used during the week (including the weekend)when i'm on the mooring. I always run my diesel for at least 30 minutes when I go out. This solution works for me. When I go on a weekend trip(2 days) my batteries have enough amp hours so that I don't need to even use a solar panel. This is because I don't use my refridgeration when I'm on the hook, I use ice. If I did, then that would be a different story. Here's an example of my use. Each summer my wife and I go on a two week trip to martha's vinyard from Boston. We motor sail the entire way. When my engine is running I turn on the refridgeration because I feel the alternator does a good job keeping up with the load. (There are a couple of blocks of ice in there anyway, so it doesn't cycle on frequently)When I get to edgartown, I'm on the hook for 7 days. I run my diesel for an hour a day to replace what I use and heat up some water. Now with the panel I don't have to start the engine to replace what I've used, but then again, I'm not using the fridge or a blender or any high drawing things. What type of cruising to you do? If you're like me (an occasional weekender), then I think you're most likely fine with your proposed setup. At least to start with. If you're going on an extended cruise and your energy demands are higher, then solar panels may not be enough. You may have to try a wind generator etc. Again, I think you start simply and then go from there. If you do decide to go with hard panels and Catalina is building your boat, I think it would be cool if they could actually build them right into the boat. If you had a hard dodger made, installed on the roof of that, or somewhere flush on deck. A much cleaner look. Hope this helps. Dave Bousquet C-30#5367 C'est Sea Bon Boston
C310 Solar & Batteries #2
Frank Actually it is rather simple if you go step by step and again you're heading in the right direction. The Adler Barbour refrigeration unit draw 5 amps when running and most people have found that it usually cycles at 50%. 5 times 0.5 = 2.5 times 24 hours a day is 60 amp hours a day. If you turn it off at night, or use Dave's idea for ice to reduce cycling, you can limit it to half of that. Stereos, unless you buy a mega system are negligible draws. Use West marine Advisor or any other reference books to find draws for other equipment, then multiply what the draw is by the expected amp hours. Given your a 4D batteries from Catalina, you've probably got the usual 200 amp hours each. What you should do is to add a separate starting battery which only has to be say 60 amp hours. That way you'll get a real bang for your battery house bank of 400 amp hours (200 useable). If you don't, then you'll be saving half of a 400 amp hour bank for starting and reducing your available house bank by half. One extra little battery will give you the complete use of the 2 big batteries. If Catalina won't do it for you, it's easy enough to add another battery. Again, check the West Advisors. That should answer your question of connecting the solar panel to just one of your 200 amp batteries. As far as battery banks are concerned, if you don't buy Calder's book, go to a store and rad page 26, Is It Better to Have One or Two Battery banks for House Use. Very important to you. Try this to read the whole paragraph: http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=433600922&r=981601532#981601532 I would also urge you to check the manufacturer of the charger. I recollect that Catalina still uses Charles. Please read the related link. You might also find it useful to peruse the rest of the website linked for a lot of technical information that is just as valuable to you and your new boat as it is to that particular model. The flexibility of solar panel locations, and the fact that your boat is still being built, leads me to recommend that you don't have them install anything at the factory. Say you decide to have them build it into the deck, but it turns out where you keep your boat would have that place in the shade, while your stern rail is in the sun? Why bother? Good luck, any more questions, we'll be here for you. Stu
Frank Actually it is rather simple if you go step by step and again you're heading in the right direction. The Adler Barbour refrigeration unit draw 5 amps when running and most people have found that it usually cycles at 50%. 5 times 0.5 = 2.5 times 24 hours a day is 60 amp hours a day. If you turn it off at night, or use Dave's idea for ice to reduce cycling, you can limit it to half of that. Stereos, unless you buy a mega system are negligible draws. Use West marine Advisor or any other reference books to find draws for other equipment, then multiply what the draw is by the expected amp hours. Given your a 4D batteries from Catalina, you've probably got the usual 200 amp hours each. What you should do is to add a separate starting battery which only has to be say 60 amp hours. That way you'll get a real bang for your battery house bank of 400 amp hours (200 useable). If you don't, then you'll be saving half of a 400 amp hour bank for starting and reducing your available house bank by half. One extra little battery will give you the complete use of the 2 big batteries. If Catalina won't do it for you, it's easy enough to add another battery. Again, check the West Advisors. That should answer your question of connecting the solar panel to just one of your 200 amp batteries. As far as battery banks are concerned, if you don't buy Calder's book, go to a store and rad page 26, Is It Better to Have One or Two Battery banks for House Use. Very important to you. Try this to read the whole paragraph: http://c34.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=329609511&f=829605811&m=433600922&r=981601532#981601532 I would also urge you to check the manufacturer of the charger. I recollect that Catalina still uses Charles. Please read the related link. You might also find it useful to peruse the rest of the website linked for a lot of technical information that is just as valuable to you and your new boat as it is to that particular model. The flexibility of solar panel locations, and the fact that your boat is still being built, leads me to recommend that you don't have them install anything at the factory. Say you decide to have them build it into the deck, but it turns out where you keep your boat would have that place in the shade, while your stern rail is in the sun? Why bother? Good luck, any more questions, we'll be here for you. Stu
Thanks again boys
As usual, you guys are the best. I will speak with a West Advisor and get some feed back. I was also given a suggestion about testing battery drain from Ed who has just floated a brand new 310. Go out one Sat. turn everything on and monitor battery drain for 8 hrs. Turn on the engine and time how long it takes to charge the battery(s). Sound doable?
As usual, you guys are the best. I will speak with a West Advisor and get some feed back. I was also given a suggestion about testing battery drain from Ed who has just floated a brand new 310. Go out one Sat. turn everything on and monitor battery drain for 8 hrs. Turn on the engine and time how long it takes to charge the battery(s). Sound doable?
Sound doable?
Frank This is getting to be a long thread. The answer to "Turn on the engine and time how long it takes to charge the battery(s) Turn on the engine and time how long it takes to charge the battery(s)" is NO. The reason is that your engine alternator (out of the box stock) just ain't gonna do you any good. That's because it is internally regulated, and will not put out too much. You also don't know, without measuring, how much it is putting out. It's a 55 amp alternator, but it tapers the charge from a maximum of perhaps 30 amps and starts immediately dropping the amount of charge down to 10 or less within a half hour even if your bank is drained. There's no way to know and the math won't compute. Sorry, but your buddy's just wrong. And why test battery drain anyway? The goal is to keep them charged. If you want to know what's coming out, look at your energy budget. The fridge is on, it's drawing 5 amps. The lights are on they draw 2 amps. How long are they on? That's what's coming out. Period. Rather than reinventing the wheel, and writing a book here, please buy Calder's book, and get into the electrical systems for boats. Maybe you and Ed could share the cost of the book? Still the best $50 you could spend on your boat and your education. When we bought our 1986 C34 in 1998, it was still essentialy a stock boat electrically, pretty much what you'll get from the factory with your new boat. OK, so yours is new, but the basic systems are exactly the same. Stock alternators, as Calder, and every other electrically knowledgable boat guru, will explain to you, will not charge your batteries and will actually harm them. The best way to do what you suggest is to either and/or both do the math in an energy budget; or buy and install a Link 10 energy meter (you only need a Link 10, because you really only have to measure your house bank). In any event, after we bought our boat in July 1998, we spent a few weeks away on vacation. Instead of reading spy novels, I read Calder, and made notes. When we got back, I started upgrading the electrical system. You are going to have to do this, because Catalina won't do it for you. And, you have the time to do it before your boat arrives. As secretary of the C34 Association, I know that many of our members have begged, pleaded and cajoled Catalina into installing reasonably modern electrical systems on their boats. They declined, but we understand that they are in a production business, and consider electrical systems a specialty that is best left to the individual ownwers. I understand and agree when you think about, because everyone uses their boats differently. For instance, if your boat use says you love marinas and hate anchoring, who needs anything more than a stock alternator with no special charging regulators: the battery charger will keep you topped up nightly when you plug in and all you need is a small house bank. {This is pretty much what all boatbuilders will give you: a reasonably sized house battery and a stock alternator with shorepower. It's what you are getting. The only difference is Catalina's giving you two 200 amp hour batteries. Not bad, huh? Actually it's a VERY good start - just wire 'em togther, add a 60 amp hour start battery, and you have a great system. Only problem is Catalina won't do it, but it's still a great "starter set."} However, if you like being on the hook, you'll spend eons charing a small battery bank with a stock regulator, and will horribly disappointed unless you upgrade the alternator charging system. BTW, the West Marine Advisor is written material, see the link and/or get one of their catalogs. Good luck, you're in for fun ride! Stu PS I just tried the link, and it's down for maintenance, but should be back soon.
Frank This is getting to be a long thread. The answer to "Turn on the engine and time how long it takes to charge the battery(s) Turn on the engine and time how long it takes to charge the battery(s)" is NO. The reason is that your engine alternator (out of the box stock) just ain't gonna do you any good. That's because it is internally regulated, and will not put out too much. You also don't know, without measuring, how much it is putting out. It's a 55 amp alternator, but it tapers the charge from a maximum of perhaps 30 amps and starts immediately dropping the amount of charge down to 10 or less within a half hour even if your bank is drained. There's no way to know and the math won't compute. Sorry, but your buddy's just wrong. And why test battery drain anyway? The goal is to keep them charged. If you want to know what's coming out, look at your energy budget. The fridge is on, it's drawing 5 amps. The lights are on they draw 2 amps. How long are they on? That's what's coming out. Period. Rather than reinventing the wheel, and writing a book here, please buy Calder's book, and get into the electrical systems for boats. Maybe you and Ed could share the cost of the book? Still the best $50 you could spend on your boat and your education. When we bought our 1986 C34 in 1998, it was still essentialy a stock boat electrically, pretty much what you'll get from the factory with your new boat. OK, so yours is new, but the basic systems are exactly the same. Stock alternators, as Calder, and every other electrically knowledgable boat guru, will explain to you, will not charge your batteries and will actually harm them. The best way to do what you suggest is to either and/or both do the math in an energy budget; or buy and install a Link 10 energy meter (you only need a Link 10, because you really only have to measure your house bank). In any event, after we bought our boat in July 1998, we spent a few weeks away on vacation. Instead of reading spy novels, I read Calder, and made notes. When we got back, I started upgrading the electrical system. You are going to have to do this, because Catalina won't do it for you. And, you have the time to do it before your boat arrives. As secretary of the C34 Association, I know that many of our members have begged, pleaded and cajoled Catalina into installing reasonably modern electrical systems on their boats. They declined, but we understand that they are in a production business, and consider electrical systems a specialty that is best left to the individual ownwers. I understand and agree when you think about, because everyone uses their boats differently. For instance, if your boat use says you love marinas and hate anchoring, who needs anything more than a stock alternator with no special charging regulators: the battery charger will keep you topped up nightly when you plug in and all you need is a small house bank. {This is pretty much what all boatbuilders will give you: a reasonably sized house battery and a stock alternator with shorepower. It's what you are getting. The only difference is Catalina's giving you two 200 amp hour batteries. Not bad, huh? Actually it's a VERY good start - just wire 'em togther, add a 60 amp hour start battery, and you have a great system. Only problem is Catalina won't do it, but it's still a great "starter set."} However, if you like being on the hook, you'll spend eons charing a small battery bank with a stock regulator, and will horribly disappointed unless you upgrade the alternator charging system. BTW, the West Marine Advisor is written material, see the link and/or get one of their catalogs. Good luck, you're in for fun ride! Stu PS I just tried the link, and it's down for maintenance, but should be back soon.
Thanks Stu
This is why I enjoy this. The info that flows thru this site is invaluable. The book will be ordered and read on my Sept vacation. Thanks again Stu.
This is why I enjoy this. The info that flows thru this site is invaluable. The book will be ordered and read on my Sept vacation. Thanks again Stu.
- Status