solar panels

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Sep 19, 2006
643
SCHOCK santana27' lake pleasant,az
they all claim to charge car batteries but when you look at the specs they say 12 volts max!!:soapbox: correct me if I'm wrong but it takes 14+ volts to charge a battery right???
so explain this and whats the better kind of panel and how much should it cost (per watt)???:confused:
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
When you put a meter on a 12 volt panel the output voltage will be somewhere between zero and 15 volts depending upon the intensity of the sunlight and the angle of incidence. When you apply a load the voltage will start to drop until the load exceeds the capacity of the panel.
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
Most solar panels actually output somewhere in the range of 15-18 VDC, depending on the design, strength of sunlight and position of panel to the sun. A 12 VDC lead-acid battery requires 14.4-14.7 VDC during the bulk charging phase, depending on the chemistry and construction of the battery.

There are basically three types of solar panels out there. The polycrystalline and monocrystalline panels are rigid and usually aluminum framed with a glass cover. These are the most efficient of the panels, however they're heavier and more difficult to mount. The multi-cell construction of these panels leaves them vulnerable to panel shading problems—where even a small amount of shade on the panel will greatly diminish its output.

The third type is the amorphous thin-film solar cell panel, which doesn't have individual discrete cells as do the two previous types. These are usually vapor deposited onto a metal backing substrate and the panels are semi-rigid. Generally unframed and and often designed to mount right to the cabintop. They can also be walked on, unlike the two previous types. However, they are far less efficient, and generally require panels to be almost twice the surface area of the other type to get the same output. However, due to the fact that they're essentiall one large cell, rather than a group of smaller cells linked together, they are less affected by panel shading, and also generally work better on overcast days.

Heat is a major enemy of solar panels, and their output drops significantly as the panels heat up. Keeping them cool is an important part of keeping them running efficiently.

As for what is a better panel, and how much they should cost—that is really dependent on the installation. For instance, many of the big racing boats go for the amorphous silicon panels and have them fastened over the cabin top. This allows them to use the cabintop for power regeneration, but doesn't require that the area be "off-limits" as the use of poly/mono-crystalline panels would require—since you can effectively walk on most amorphous silicon solar panels without doing damage. A cruising boat, with dinghy davits would probably be wise to go with rigid mono/poly-crystalline panels, to minimize the panel size needed.

One thing that helps considerably is using an MPPT-type solar charge controller. MPPT, or Maximum Power Point Tracking technology is basically an charge controller with a high-frequency DC-to-DC converter and a CPU that tracks and monitors the battery voltage on a regular basis and adjusts the voltage and amperage of the output, trading excess voltage for increased amperage. They can increase effective battery charging by almost 30% in the best cases. The excess voltage of a solar panel is generally shed as waste heat, and is pretty inefficient when it comes to charging the batteries—by lowering the panels output voltage to the minimum level required by the battery at the given point in the charging cycle, the amperage can be increased, effectively increasing the number of amp-hours a battery will receive for the given time period. BlueSky and Outback make two of the better MPPT type solar charge controllers.

Please note, if your solar panels are larger than just a trickle charge or "maintenance" level charge, you really do need a charge controller of some sort to prevent the panels from frying your batteries. A good inexpensive charge controller that is often used by solar panel setups is something like the Flexcharge NC-25A, which can handle up to 25 Amps of charging current.
they all claim to charge car batteries but when you look at the specs they say 12 volts max!!:soapbox: correct me if I'm wrong but it takes 14+ volts to charge a battery right???
so explain this and whats the better kind of panel and how much should it cost (per watt)???:confused:
 
Nov 26, 2008
13
Macgregor 26s Arlingtion Tn.
Sand Sailor,
Panel come in two types amorphous (cost less),multicrystaline(cost more)
multicrystaline work 50% better than Amorphous panels. But is the extra
cost worth it ,depends on your needs .My Mac26s I have 2 1000 cold crank
batteries ,I use a two 15w amorphous charger cost (69.00 northern tools) with built
in blocking diodes ,for my weakend needs this is all I need . With the ham rigs
on most of the day and kids watching sponge bob at night it has worked ok.
But the big factor is how much sunlight is getting to the panel .At ideal conditions
my panels make 2 amps per hour ,for $4.60 (per watt).
 
Jan 22, 2008
8,050
Beneteau 323 Annapolis MD
Like your "12-volt" output, the charger on my Honda 8 was 12 volts. While obviously not intended to "charge" the batteries, it was enough to keep them from going dead- thus giving you some juice to limp home on. The larger number of cells in a rigid panel, the higher the no-load voltage. If memory serves me, I read that 38( ? ) cells is preferred. Might be some other number, though.
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
IIRC, most monocrystalline and polycrystalline panels are 36 cells, and output 18 VDC optimally, since the cells are .5 VDC each. Amorphous silicon panels are effectively one large cell.
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Number of cells!

You want to go with the max number of cells. Ron20324 is incorrect on the 38 cell panel. The max number is 36.
The reasoning is as follows:
solar power output (AMPS x volts) drops off (volts part) with increasing temperature of the panel. Since you are going to place the panels in the direct sun it is reasonable to assume they are going to get hot and that there output (over spec) is going to drop.
Also, you are also going to want to put blocking diodes in the circuit which will suck up a volt or 2.
So get a panel that has somewhere around 19.5 volts at OPERATING temp of 122 F or so. Most will have a graph that shows volts as a function of temp. In lew of a volts-temp graph, look at the volts-amp graph and ID the knee of the curve. that should be somewhat above (voltage wise) the charging voltage you are desiring.
Lest you think I'm bright, I found this info in Boatowner's Mechanical and Electrical Manual 3rd edition by Nigel Calder. a MUST own for anybody doing boat upgrades.
 

John

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Jun 3, 2006
803
Catalina 36mkII Alameda CA
Regarding the diodes - can you hhok up a switch to connect the panels to the battery without rputing through the diodes when the battery is way down, and in this way avoid the voltage drop?

Then, when the battery is more fully charged change it for the panels' charge to run through the diodes. Would that work?
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,541
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Something overall not important... but the temperature dependence "problem" mostly affects systems using MPPT type controllers and not so much the simpler PWM type controllers.

The reason is that the panel output voltage is much more temperature dependent than the output current. A MPPT controller is able to take advantage of both the output voltage and current and runs the panel at its max power point regardless of the battery charging voltage. So the drop in voltage from temperature directly degrades the power delivered to the battery with the MPPT controller.

However, the simpler PWM type controller is simply connecting or disconnecting the panel to the battery with a electronic switch. The panel puts out about the same current regarless of voltage so the panel voltage will be at the battery voltage when the charge controller connects it to the battery. There is no power being "burned up" in the panel by doing this - but there is a power efficiency loss because the power delivered is at the battery voltage rather than closer to the open circuit voltage of the panel.

Since the output current is much less temperature dependent, the simpler and cheaper PWM type controllers systems see much less temperature effects on power delivered (but of course are less efficient to begin with).
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
Ideally, you'd use a photoelectric switch to do this, since the main reason for the diodes is to prevent the solar panels from discharging the batteries at night. :)
Regarding the diodes - can you hhok up a switch to connect the panels to the battery without rputing through the diodes when the battery is way down, and in this way avoid the voltage drop?

Then, when the battery is more fully charged change it for the panels' charge to run through the diodes. Would that work?
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
Yes, but the MPPT controllers generally get more amp-hours into the battery than do the PWM type controllers. PWM controllers generally don't trade volts for amps, and as such put fewer amps per hour into the battery under the same conditions when compared to an MPPT controller.

Something overall not important... but the temperature dependence "problem" mostly affects systems using MPPT type controllers and not so much the simpler PWM type controllers.

The reason is that the panel output voltage is much more temperature dependent than the output current. A MPPT controller is able to take advantage of both the output voltage and current and runs the panel at its max power point regardless of the battery charging voltage. So the drop in voltage from temperature directly degrades the power delivered to the battery with the MPPT controller.

However, the simpler PWM type controller is simply connecting or disconnecting the panel to the battery with a electronic switch. The panel puts out about the same current regarless of voltage so the panel voltage will be at the battery voltage when the charge controller connects it to the battery. There is no power being "burned up" in the panel by doing this - but there is a power efficiency loss because the power delivered is at the battery voltage rather than closer to the open circuit voltage of the panel.

Since the output current is much less temperature dependent, the simpler and cheaper PWM type controllers systems see much less temperature effects on power delivered (but of course are less efficient to begin with).
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,541
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Yup.. a panel with MPPT would need maybe a 70C change in temp before its efficiency got down to what a panel with a PWM controller would be. Some data collected on panel temperature effects at the link below.

http://quantum.soe.ucsc.edu/research/SolarCell/Tarn_Senior%20Thesis.pdf

Regarding the diodes on the panel output, they have no effect on efficiency when used with a simpler PWM controller. The current into the battery will be the same with or without the diodes and the power delivered to the battery is the panel current times the battery voltage.

But with the MPPT controller, the panel output diodes do result in lost power delivered to the battery - but only a "few" percent.
 

Bob S

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Sep 27, 2007
1,803
Beneteau 393 New Bedford, MA
I thought you didn't need a blocking diode if you're using a charge controller? The diode blocks the flow of volts out of the batteries when the sun goes down. I read somewhere, maybe in Nigel Calder's book, that the blocking diode should be removed when using a controller and a controller should always be used if the panel output exceeds more than 1% of the battery bank capacity.

Not to hijack this thread but what kind of amps could one expect from an 80 watt panel and a PWM controller in the northeast? I can figure out the theoretical but I was hoping for real world numbers.
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,541
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
depending on the controller, you probably dont need the diodes as the controller can shut down current draw when the panel voltage goes below the battery voltage - same as the diodes do. Id probably check the controller specs before doing this.

But as mentioned, if a panel is directly connected to a battery or conventional PWM (pulse width modulated) controller is used, you get no loss in power delivered to the battery because of the blocking diode so why remove it.

But with a MPPT controller, it might be worth removing the diodes.

I would also be interested in amp hour people get from a solar panel. But I would also like to know how they measured it - lots of room for error or interpretation.

I am thinking of getting a battery charge monitor for my simple electrical system (20 watt panel and PWM controller with a single battery bank). I am thinking that I need a link 20 sytem which is made for a two battery system even though I only have one battery bank. One of the shunts would be on the battery bank return and the other would be on the solar panel charge controller return. The two shunt/link 20 system would allow me to use the boat as I normally do during the day. If I tried to use a single battery monitor such as a link 10, I beleive I would have to remove all current draws and measure on a day when the battery was somewhat depleted so that the charge controller stayed on all the time. Seems this would be so limiting that I would never get around to measuring. With the two battery monitor system, I could use the boat electrical system normally but still monitor exactly what the solar panel put out during a day (for a particular area, time of year, weather).
 
Oct 22, 2008
3,502
- Telstar 28 Buzzards Bay
Most charge controllers will work without the need for a blocking diode.

BTW, you can't really measure the amp-hours provided by a solar panel, since the amount they provide and the amount the batteries absorb aren't the same thing. If your panels are outputting 5 amps for six hours, you don't necessarily gain 30 amp-hours in battery capacity.
 
Sep 29, 2008
1,940
Catalina 310 #185 Quantico
FWIW, I have a 15 watt panel that uses a BarreryMindr charge controller. This has the desulphinator circuit that also helps keep the sulphur crystal from sticking to the plates in the battery. I understand that there are diodes in the charge controller to prevent reverse flow. My only complaint was that it was not really made for marine mounting so I had to make my own mount and they installed zinc nuts into the track (I installed my own stainless ones) that rust a little. As my boat is for mostly weekend use, I have adequate power and it did give me about two extra years on a battery that was giving up and dying.
 

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natotm

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May 5, 2006
29
- - -
FWIW

This is a beaten horse and the long of it seems to be that watts are watts within the parameters of PV 12v systems. The batteries don't seem to much care as long as the charge voltage meets or exceeds the amount required for charge uptake. Unless your PV banks are very oversized for your battery bank your batteries happily suck in electrons at the rate provided. Electrons in, electrons out. That simple regulator will most likely keep things happy for quite some time.
 
Feb 1, 2007
113
-Lancer -28 The Sea Of Cortez
Re: Number of cells!

Bill has it right.. Check the number of cells in the panel! Most designed for 12V battery charging with a charge controller will have 36 cells. Their actual output voltage will be around 16.8-17 VDC. Some "12 Volt panels" only contain 32 cells. They top out at 15 volts and are designed to charge and maintain a 12 volt battery with no charge controller. They are billed as "self-regulating" as they can not really over-charge a 12 volt battery.
 
Sep 19, 2006
643
SCHOCK santana27' lake pleasant,az
here it is !!

:neutral: I'm in az the only thing we dont truck in is sunshine so i'm wanting to bottle a little of it for a rainy day:laugh: i'm on the boat once or twice a month and it sits in the sun the rest of the year so keeping the batteries up i have to charge them up maybe 4 times a year but i havent installed a vhf or the stereo or the laptop yet and i want to add more lights (its the truck driver in me) so a cheap plug it in and mount it atop the cabin model should work right???
 
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