So many questions - 24ft Laguna Windrose

[Nunyadamn]

Hello - this is my first post. I just purchased a 1974 24ft Laguna Windrose and now I need to learn how to sail. So, to back up a little, I have had 5 power boats and a waverunner in the last 20 years. 3 very fast 18ft flatbottom speed boats, a 27ft large freeboard openbow and a 21ft wakesurfing boat I ordered new. I only tell you this because I am not completely new to the water, but I am completely new to sailing. I got the sailing bug after watching all of the popular sailing channels on YouTube and now my 10yr plan is to sail off into the sunset when I retire. I need to get started.

I live in Arizona, so from where I live there are really only 2 close options - Lake Pleasant and Lake Roosevelt. My plan was to take some ASA sailing classes, then buy a cheap boat to learn on over the next 5 years, then buy a 35-45ft true blue water boat and set sail. We have always had the plan to travel around the country with our 35ft travel trailer after I retire, and we have had a few boats, so it just seems like a better plan to buy a sailboat and travel around the Bahama's/Mediterranean.

Sorry, that is all a little off topic on why I wanted to post today. I need help. Since Covid screwed my learning plan up (I have been reading the ASA books while I wait to get hands on training), I have moved on to step 2 - buying a cheap boat to learn on. There are only a few sailboats within 200 miles of me - all around $3000-15000 - and I was looking at a couple for ~$3-5000. Then one night, this boat popped up for $1500. Came with a working (more later) 1990 Johnson Sail Master 9.9, a small battery powered trolling motor for backup, main sheet, jib sheet and storm sheet. The trailer has a lot of rust, but nothing that looks like it is going to fail, just ugly. The boat is in good shape, other than a few small dings and stress small stress cracks around some of the railing mounts. The people who owned it took good care of it from what I can tell. The bottom needs to be repainted, not because anything is wrong, they just used a brush instead of a roller and it looks bad.

So, I have a few issues. One, it has a broken block for the boom traveler hardware. It's just a block with a shackle, but the wheel is plastic, old, and broken into pieces. I am having trouble figuring out what size replacement that I need. They gave me all of the lines, but I don't know what size they are and/or what size block I need to fit the lines. The lines for this is smaller than 1/2 inch diameter, but I don't know what size the line actually is. I know this is a fundamental that I need to learn, how to size lines, so if someone has a website with good information or videos I can watch, please point me to them. Finding sailboat information on the internet isn't as easy as I thought it would be.

Second problem is raising the mast. I watched the people I bought the boat from lower the mast, but when I got home and my wife and I tried to raise it back up, it became obvious we needed some additional help. The people that I bought it from used a pulley system mounted to the front stay turnbuckle and the part it attaches to on the boat to lower the mast. I tried to use that to raise the mast, and it was nearly impossible to pull hard enough to move the mast off the ladder I had it resting on in the back of the boat. I ran a line from the pulley system to one of the winches and that helped, except the mast wanted to sway side to side so I have to hold that while my wife winched. It worked, but there has to be a better way. I started researching gin poles and that seems to be something that either came with your boat or it didn't and I can't find them for sale. Now I have started to piece together the parts to make my own out of wood - crank winch 2 way, pulley, a few eye bolts, some ratchet straps, wood, etc. I think I can make it work, but I wish the boat came with something. Another problem I have with raising the mast is moving it back from it's trailering position on the boat to the location needed to raise it. When trailering, it sits on the front and back rail stanchions and is bungee corded down. I have to move it back about 9 feet and so far have used a 12ft ladder to set it onto in front of my house. I have seen people online that have a roller of some kind that is mounted to the transom and allows them to push the mast back on the roller. Again, my boat doesn't have anything like this so I have started making it. My plan is to use chain link gate hangers to mount to a piece of wood and then hang on the rudder mounts. Then I will need to mount a roller up top for the mast to sit in. I think I have seen these online, but they were ~$200 - seems high for a roller, a pole and a couple of hangers/mounts. If anyone has a better idea or place to buy this stuff, I would really appreciate the links.

The outboard runs, but would not flow water out of the motor when I bought it from the people. I am hoping it's just a really bad impeller. I am waiting on a stand to show up so I can take it apart to replace it. In the meantime, I have a second problem with the outboard, the tiller throttle is extremely hard to turn. I am sure the throttle cable that runs down the arm is rusted - I disconnected it from the engine linkage and it is really hard to turn. I was able to free it a little, but it needs to be replaced. The problem is I can't get the frozen on throttle handle off. There are two pieces I have to push at the same time, then pull the handle off, but it is extremely stuck on there. I tried WD40 all over it where I could get it in behind the handle, but no luck yet. I thought the slow speed limit control adjuster might be stopping the throttle from spinning, but when I removed the adjuster and a spring shot off into a corner and I can't find it. Then I broke it when trying to pull the handle off. So now I need to buy the throttle adjuster, the cable and I have the impeller replacement. Anyone have any ideas on how to get this throttle handle off? Have I missed something that needs to come off before it will pull off?

Just to recap my questions:
1. What size block do I need?
2. Is there a better mast raising system?
3. How do I replace this stubborn throttle cable?

I am sure to have more questions as I get started. Hopefully only 5-10 years worth. Bare with me while I learn the new terminology and ask trivial questions going forward. Thanks for any help you can provide.

 

[dmax]

1) Regardng line sizes, Sailrite is an excellent company with a good website, check this out:

https://www.sailrite.com/PDF/Rope%20Selection%20Recommendations.pdf

3) I don't know how to replace the throttle cable but you need to stop using WD40 and get some PB Blaster when trying to loosen stuck things. WD40 is good for some things, but not penetrating corrosion - the name comes from the 40th iteration when trying to develop a Water Displacement solution.

 

[Nunyadamn]

1) Regardng line sizes, Sailrite is an excellent company with a good website, check this out:

https://www.sailrite.com/PDF/Rope%20Selection%20Recommendations.pdf

3) I don't know how to replace the throttle cable but you need to stop using WD40 and get some PB Blaster when trying to loosen stuck things. WD40 is good for some things, but not penetrating corrosion - the name comes from the 40th iteration when trying to develop a Water Displacement solution.

Thanks. That is very helpful. It looks like I should have a 5/16 line. I will see what I can find and worst case I can replace the line to fit the new block. Also, thank's for the tip on the WD40. I will grab something before I try to remove that handle the next time.

 

[Daveinet]

To catch my mast, I had a section of 3 inch PVC pipe that would shove into the rudder mount. I mounted a bow roller to the end for the mast to sit on. This worked for the most part, but it really needed guides to keep it on the roller, as it would tend to steer off as you pushed it back. For mast raising, I had an old section of a broken boom that I cut the end, so it would sit on the mast step. To stabilise the mast while raising, I put two U-bolts up through my cabin, where I could clip the baby stays onto. The gin pole was also cleated to the same u-bolts. The mast would move a little side to side, but not bad enough to stress anything. To raise it, I used the main sheet. The nice thing about that is, I can cleat it at any point and untangle lines that inevitably get caught when raising it. I can easily do this by my self with a 28 ft mast.

I will also mention, the PVC pipe I used to rest the mast on was also used for transport. This was one less thing I had to do to after arriving at the ramp. From the time I parked the car, I could have my mast up within 10 minutes.

 

[Nunyadamn]

To catch my mast, I had a section of 3 inch PVC pipe that would shove into the rudder mount. I mounted a bow roller to the end for the mast to sit on. This worked for the most part, but it really needed guides to keep it on the roller, as it would tend to steer off as you pushed it back. For mast raising, I had an old section of a broken boom that I cut the end, so it would sit on the mast step. To stabilise the mast while raising, I put two U-bolts up through my cabin, where I could clip the baby stays onto. The gin pole was also cleated to the same u-bolts. The mast would move a little side to side, but not bad enough to stress anything. To raise it, I used the main sheet. The nice thing about that is, I can cleat it at any point and untangle lines that inevitably get caught when raising it. I can easily do this by my self with a 28 ft mast. View attachment 186853View attachment 186854

I will also mention, the PVC pipe I used to rest the mast on was also used for transport. This was one less thing I had to do to after arriving at the ramp. From the time I parked the car, I could have my mast up within 10 minutes.

I see that you have the tilting base for your mast. My boat has just a bolt that goes through two side pieces of metal. I don't know what it technically is called, but I have thought of replacing what I currently have with one like yours. I think the tilting mast base will help keep the mast more straight while I raise/lower it.

As far as the PVC goes, do you have a better picture. I can't quite make out what you have. I have 2 small gudgeon mounts on the back for my rudder.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I see that you have the tilting base for your mast. My boat has just a bolt that goes through two side pieces of metal. I don't know what it technically is called,

Hi and congratulations on your first step of many.
What it is called is a TABERNACLE.

For my background, I've owned sailboats since 1983. A Catalina 22 (5 years), a Catalina 25 (13 years) and this Catalina 34 since 1998. The Catalina 25 is very similar to your boat, and the C25 Association has a very good website: Association Forum - Catalina 25 Specific Forum They have the same challenges you do on mast raising, and if you noodle around there, or even join (for free!) you can ask, they are a very helpful group. The concept with owners associations is simple: they help you avoid reinventing the wheel.

Also, BOOKS can be very helpful. Pat Royce's excellent SAILING ILLUSTRATED has many pages devoted to trailer sailors, and IIRC includes your very boat in some illustrations. Learning to sail? Two: 1) Sailing for Dummies - actually a great book; 2) the very best sail trim information EVER assembled in one place: Don Guillette's Sail Trim Guide, available right here on this very website, look under books. I've been reading sail trim stuff for 45 years and this is the very best investment you could ever make in learning how sails work and how you make them work for you. Don't bother looking elsewhere beyond these three books for sailing; Royce's covers more than just sail trim, stuff you need to know. Really.

I raised and lowered my mast on the C22, never did on the C25. A C25 owner in Florida did a YouTube on singlehanded mast raising and lowering because he had low bridges to get out from his dock behind his house. You should be able to find it. IIRC, the "trick" in raising the mast is to make sure the shrouds are clear and to do it FAST. It WILL wobble if you try to do it slow with a block & tackle. Do more investigation.

The best deal on blocks is Garhauer, although you could find others in West Marine if they are on sale, but Garhauer's quality can't be beat for a great price.

See if you can find a West Marine catalog, the thick paper version. It will be a great learning tool, because you can read about what gear is actually available on the marketplace, and get pricing. I literally "grew up" reading those catalogs instead of the newspapers with my morning coffee!!!

Good luck to you, sounds like a great start.

 

[SailingLoto]

I have a 26 Laguna. I bolt my mast to the step, block the mast up at the stern rail with 2 2x4's in an X so it is over center of the step axis. wrap a ratchet strap around the mast 12 ft or so up and tie off a line to it. connect your shrouds. hook main sheet to bow pulpit and to line ratchet strapped to mast with sheet fully extended. have a buddy boost the mast up as you tighten/pull the main sheet. you can also extend the mainsheet line and boost the mast on your shoulder and pull the sheet, but help is nice. keep pulling sheet until mast is up and rear stay is tight. connect forestay.

No gin pole or magic widget. I am 5'10 155lbs and I can do it myself when necessary.

 

[Daveinet]

I see that you have the tilting base for your mast. My boat has just a bolt that goes through two side pieces of metal. I don't know what it technically is called, but I have thought of replacing what I currently have with one like yours. I think the tilting mast base will help keep the mast more straight while I raise/lower it.

I'm not sure I would trust the pivot bolt to keep the mast straight. A small amount of crosswind, when trying to raise the mast would probably rip it out of the bottom of the mast. You really need to have either baby stays or make some temporary short side stays (guy-wires) to stabilize the mast. You can always rivet small loops to the sides of your mast to clip the stays to. Make sure the loop is large enough for a carabiner to clip your guy-wire to. You want this to be fast and easy. Since these only stabilize the mast while raising, they don't need to be super strong.

As far as the PVC goes, do you have a better picture. I can't quite make out what you have. I have 2 small gudgeon mounts on the back for my rudder.

I don't have a good photo of the bow roller in the top. I just used two stainless brackets to screw it to the end of the pipe. My photo shows that the rudder mount has a loop where I could shove the PVC pipe down into, to stabilize it. If I did not have that option, I would probably just cut a vertical slot in the pipe so it is U-shaped around the tiller and have it go down over the length of the upper portion of the rudder. Use a ratcheting strap to keep it from falling off the rudder.

 

[Nunyadamn]

I'm not sure I would trust the pivot bolt to keep the mast straight. A small amount of crosswind, when trying to raise the mast would probably rip it out of the bottom of the mast. You really need to have either baby stays or make some temporary short side stays (guy-wires) to stabilize the mast. You can always rivet small loops to the sides of your mast to clip the stays to. Make sure the loop is large enough for a carabiner to clip your guy-wire to. You want this to be fast and easy. Since these only stabilize the mast while raising, they don't need to be super strong.
I don't have a good photo of the bow roller in the top. I just used two stainless brackets to screw it to the end of the pipe. My photo shows that the rudder mount has a loop where I could shove the PVC pipe down into, to stabilize it. If I did not have that option, I would probably just cut a vertical slot in the pipe so it is U-shaped around the tiller and have it go down over the length of the upper portion of the rudder. Use a ratcheting strap to keep it from falling off the rudder.
View attachment 186874

Thanks - Mine has a flat transom with two holes, for lack of a better term. The rudder has two posts, again for lack of a better term, that slide into the holes.

 

[Nunyadamn]

Hi and congratulations on your first step of many.
What it is called is a TABERNACLE.

For my background, I've owned sailboats since 1983. A Catalina 22 (5 years), a Catalina 25 (13 years) and this Catalina 34 since 1998. The Catalina 25 is very similar to your boat, and the C25 Association has a very good website: Association Forum - Catalina 25 Specific Forum They have the same challenges you do on mast raising, and if you noodle around there, or even join (for free!) you can ask, they are a very helpful group. The concept with owners associations is simple: they help you avoid reinventing the wheel.

Also, BOOKS can be very helpful. Pat Royce's excellent SAILING ILLUSTRATED has many pages devoted to trailer sailors, and IIRC includes your very boat in some illustrations. Learning to sail? Two: 1) Sailing for Dummies - actually a great book; 2) the very best sail trim information EVER assembled in one place: Don Guillette's Sail Trim Guide, available right here on this very website, look under books. I've been reading sail trim stuff for 45 years and this is the very best investment you could ever make in learning how sails work and how you make them work for you. Don't bother looking elsewhere beyond these three books for sailing; Royce's covers more than just sail trim, stuff you need to know. Really.

I raised and lowered my mast on the C22, never did on the C25. A C25 owner in Florida did a YouTube on singlehanded mast raising and lowering because he had low bridges to get out from his dock behind his house. You should be able to find it. IIRC, the "trick" in raising the mast is to make sure the shrouds are clear and to do it FAST. It WILL wobble if you try to do it slow with a block & tackle. Do more investigation.

The best deal on blocks is Garhauer, although you could find others in West Marine if they are on sale, but Garhauer's quality can't be beat for a great price.

See if you can find a West Marine catalog, the thick paper version. It will be a great learning tool, because you can read about what gear is actually available on the marketplace, and get pricing. I literally "grew up" reading those catalogs instead of the newspapers with my morning coffee!!!

Good luck to you, sounds like a great start.

Thanks for all of those tips. I will check out that Catalina forum also. I thought I bought the right block, but it is way too small, again. First one was a micro block, obviously too small. I thought the 22mm was going to work, also way too small. Finding parts for a sailboat in Arizona will be tough. If I wanted bass fishing boat parts, it would be easy, but the West Marine here doesn't carry hardly anything in stock for sailboats. I think I have a good plan now for raising the mast. I will try and raise it this next week.

 

[Nunyadamn]

I now have a couple of contraptions that I made to get the mast up/down a lot easier. I still have a few things I need to add to make it better, but the concept works and wasn't extremely hard to fix.

A couple of issues I need to address - need to add a strap to each side of the mast and down to the boat for better side to side sway stabilization. My wife was able to hold it fairly steady, but I want to make it a little better for that. Secondly, the strap I have that holds the gin pole to the mast is not good enough and will allow the gin pole to slightly tilt - it works, but I have a good idea on how to get rid of the strap all together and won't take much work.

I have attached pictures - first time on this site.

 

[Project_Mayhem]

Nice mast stepping system. A few things that might make some improvements

• I assume your gin pole is tilting to the side that has the ratchet/buckle on it. You could start out with the gin pole tilted in the opposite direction to compensate, add a second ratchet strap with the ratchet on the other side or you could make one strap with a ratchet at each end. Dual ratchets allow you to balance things out as the ratchets pull the pole to one side or another
• If you have a hard time getting the mast on top of the ladder, extend one of the horizontal "steps" or "rungs" past the verticle 2x4's. This would give you a resting place to allow you to step onto a higher part of the boat
• Put some carpet samples or scraps on the ladder where it touches the mast. This makes it easier to slide the mast back and forth when attaching it to the tabernacle
• I'll often use a line or strap attached to the cabin top handrails as a safety when I'm attaching the mast to the tabernacle. It's pretty loose but it's enough to catch it if I let go of the mast. My mast teeters on my stern rail during this process

 

[Hunter216]

This Harken catalog might prove useful to browse through.

Harken-catalog_2020-EN

flipbook.brandbits.com

 

[Nunyadamn]

Nice mast stepping system. A few things that might make some improvements

• I assume your gin pole is tilting to the side that has the ratchet/buckle on it. You could start out with the gin pole tilted in the opposite direction to compensate, add a second ratchet strap with the ratchet on the other side or you could make one strap with a ratchet at each end. Dual ratchets allow you to balance things out as the ratchets pull the pole to one side or another
• If you have a hard time getting the mast on top of the ladder, extend one of the horizontal "steps" or "rungs" past the verticle 2x4's. This would give you a resting place to allow you to step onto a higher part of the boat
• Put some carpet samples or scraps on the ladder where it touches the mast. This makes it easier to slide the mast back and forth when attaching it to the tabernacle
• I'll often use a line or strap attached to the cabin top handrails as a safety when I'm attaching the mast to the tabernacle. It's pretty loose but it's enough to catch it if I let go of the mast. My mast teeters on my stern rail during this process

My gin pole is actually really straight to the mast, it is actually tilting forward a little once I start to turn the wench. No problem getting the mast on the holder/ladder, it is actually fairly easy to do that part. I have a large roller on the top so I can slide the mast towards the rear. Thanks for the post.

 

[Nunyadamn]

This Harken catalog might prove useful to browse through.

Harken-catalog_2020-EN

flipbook.brandbits.com

That is a great catalog. I did find the pulley I was looking for. The boat is only 24ft but the previous owner is using 1/2 line for everything. I kept ordering what the boat probably started out with (smaller) and now I have the correct pulley's. Thanks!

 

[Hunter216]

That is a great catalog. I did find the pulley I was looking for. The boat is only 24ft but the previous owner is using 1/2 line for everything. I kept ordering what the boat probably started out with (smaller) and now I have the correct pulley's. Thanks!

Harken makes nice gear. I like Ronstan as well, typically higher load rating, <$ but a little less refined.

Coming Soon – Ronstan Sailboat Hardware News

www.ronstan.com

 

[Nunyadamn]

Harken makes nice gear. I like Ronstan as well, typically higher load rating, <$ but a little less refined.

Coming Soon – Ronstan Sailboat Hardware News

www.ronstan.com

I ended up going with a Ronstan pulley.
Ronstan RF51100 Series 50

 

[Project_Mayhem]

My gin pole is actually really straight to the mast, it is actually tilting forward a little once I start to turn the wench. No problem getting the mast on the holder/ladder, it is actually fairly easy to do that part. I have a large roller on the top so I can slide the mast towards the rear. Thanks for the post.

It sounds like it'll be a pretty nice system when it's finished

That is a great catalog. I did find the pulley I was looking for. The boat is only 24ft but the previous owner is using 1/2 line for everything. I kept ordering what the boat probably started out with (smaller) and now I have the correct pulley's. Thanks!

The 1/2" line was probably added by a previous owner for easier line handling. Smaller lines are harder on the hands. It's much easier to grip a screwdriver by the handle than the shaft due to its size

 

[Nunyadamn]

It sounds like it'll be a pretty nice system when it's finished

The 1/2" line was probably added by a previous owner for easier line handling. Smaller lines are harder on the hands. It's much easier to grip a screwdriver by the handle than the shaft due to its size

I think the gin pole setup will work, I wish I could have just bought something at a reasonable price. I am sure you are right about the line size for comfort, too bad everything I have to replace going forward will cost more now.

 

[Daveinet]

What is the purpose of the extra winch on the gin pole? Why wouldn't you just clip your main sheet and fiddle blocks between the forestay and the bow cleat directly. There is enough leverage gain in the main sheet to easily lift the mast. You can also cleat it incase you need to stop part way up and untangle a line. Once the mast is up, use the jib sheet to keep it upright so one can clip the forestay to the bow cleat.
The other thing I've sen done is use the boat winch on the trailer tong to lift the mast. That is a little more cumbersome, but at least it doesn't add weight to the gin pole.
Wood seems a bit heavy to use for a gin pole. I'd probably buy something like this for 20 bucks:

Amazon.com: 8121, Aluminum Structural Tube 1.5" x 3" x 0.125" x 48" Long : Industrial & Scientific

Amazon.com: 8121, Aluminum Structural Tube 1.5" x 3" x 0.125" x 48" Long : Industrial & Scientific

www.amazon.com

This is very similar in size and thickness to the boom section that I use to lift my mast. My mast was 27 ft, so it should be similar weight to what yours is. I just like to keep things light weight because I can work much faster. When its 95 degrees out, I want to take as little effort as possible to setup the boat. Using the main sheet to raise the mast also means less stress on the gin pole, so it does not need to be super heavy.