We plan to get a cruising spinnaker. We have heard conflicting recommendations for Snuffers vs Top-Down Furlers. What are your experiences with either?
Snuffer vs Top-Down Furler
- Thread starter Larry Jackel
- Start date
Those top-down furlers sure look easy to handle, with less "stuff" to deal with than the sock/snuffer.
There's no UV protection with the TD furler, but a lot less windage, too.
I do like my sock, but that's probably because it's all I've ever used.
And I'm a cheapskate.
There's no UV protection with the TD furler, but a lot less windage, too.
I do like my sock, but that's probably because it's all I've ever used.
And I'm a cheapskate.
Top downs use a anti- torsion line and a winding string to twirl asyms. It doubles (at least) the cost of the sail.
They are much better for captive luff gennakers.
You also need a straight view from your mast top box to where your luff line attaches. On most boats the bow pulpit interferes.
They are much better for captive luff gennakers.
You also need a straight view from your mast top box to where your luff line attaches. On most boats the bow pulpit interferes.
I used both. I currently use a CDI furler for my asymmetrical spinnaker on my 386. Same price as a sock and tacker. Works very well on a jib, especially during a race when you have to make multiple jibs.
Interesting. How well does it roll up?
I'm doing some searching of CDI's site at the moment. I was confusing CDI's standard-fare furler with the spin furler.
I assume you're using a bowsprit?
I have only used socks on both boats I'm owned. But that is because those on the boats when I got them. They work fine, but if I were to start with nothing it would be mostly a no-brainer to me to get a furler. Since it is normally just my wife and I on the boat the biggest issue with flying the spinnaker is always whether the trouble of putting it up and taking it down is worth it. I'm sure that if the unit was on a furler we would put it up more offer as if wrong it could be furled back up and left rigged.
In the end ease of use is the biggest issue to flying a spinnaker on a larger boat short handed crew! If it is easier it will get used more.
In the end ease of use is the biggest issue to flying a spinnaker on a larger boat short handed crew! If it is easier it will get used more.
I have the same boat as you and I currently use a sock on mine but have been shopping for a furler and bow sprit. The sock is easy to use and works fine, my only issue is sail changes during the day. With the sock I have to remove the asymetrical to use the jib. With a furler I could leave it up for the day and easily change between sails.
a. How well do the top-down furlers work on a chute when you've waited too long, say 20 knots or more? All the video I've seen is in light wind, when anything works. I suspect it is better, just wondered,
b. I do like the fact that a sock doubles as a sail bag, protecting the sail in the locker. In fact, I would probably launch right from a bag if I had my druthers (faster), but I can't fit the bagged sail through the hatch into the locker, whereas I can lower the snuffed sail directly below.
c. I'm not sure I can see leaving the sail up for any significant windward work. I'm guessing it would cost so much time as to erase any off the wind benefit I got from the chute. The only reason I would leave it up is if the wind speed was going up and down, and I thought I might use it again later.
So while I don't want to come off as a nay sayer, I'm not sure it would be much better, except sailing a long down-wind passage short handed; small wonder they were developed for just that sort of racing.
b. I do like the fact that a sock doubles as a sail bag, protecting the sail in the locker. In fact, I would probably launch right from a bag if I had my druthers (faster), but I can't fit the bagged sail through the hatch into the locker, whereas I can lower the snuffed sail directly below.
c. I'm not sure I can see leaving the sail up for any significant windward work. I'm guessing it would cost so much time as to erase any off the wind benefit I got from the chute. The only reason I would leave it up is if the wind speed was going up and down, and I thought I might use it again later.
So while I don't want to come off as a nay sayer, I'm not sure it would be much better, except sailing a long down-wind passage short handed; small wonder they were developed for just that sort of racing.
I have a Doyle UPS, which is essentially a code 0. A furling system only works on certain types of sails. It must have a straight edge luff, like a jib. It is reefable and furls well in big air and from the comfort of the cockpit. You should always find a good local sail maker to discuss your needs. The good ones won't be too upset if you don't buy all your sails from them.
A doyle UPS is more like a gennaker, or Code 1. It's a great sail. As Dom notes, if you want to use one with a furler, your sailmaker must build in an anti-torsion rope into the luff that the sail can furl around.
A top down furler will work great with an A2 or A3 asym. That is where the definition "top down" comes from. I have sailed with both an ATN sock and a Karver Top Down furler with an A2 asym. In a big breeze I found the sock to be a real chore. The Top Down needs more mussel to get it started, though you can put the continuous furling line on a winch. The big advantage to the Top Down is it can be entirely controlled from the cockpit.
I have also sailed with a Code 0 on a furler. This requires the anti torsion line to be sown into the luff. Also, the Top Down unit is different for a Code 0. Do your homework.
The biggest challenge with the Top Down will be jibing. You must do an inside jibe. It will not furl if it is mounted as an outside jibe. If the space is not very wide between the forestay and the anti torsion line the asym can blow into the fore triangle. This is bad. The way to keep this from happening by one of two methods:
1) Mount a bow sprit on the bow to increase the space for the sail to jibe through. It is not fullproof, just more forgiving.
2) Unfurl the jib, lock it down and do not touch it, jib the asym (the asym will collapse into the back winded jib), pull the asym though, then release the jib and refurl. This is a high-wind asym jibe trick used on some of the retractable bow sprit race boats.
I have also sailed with a Code 0 on a furler. This requires the anti torsion line to be sown into the luff. Also, the Top Down unit is different for a Code 0. Do your homework.
The biggest challenge with the Top Down will be jibing. You must do an inside jibe. It will not furl if it is mounted as an outside jibe. If the space is not very wide between the forestay and the anti torsion line the asym can blow into the fore triangle. This is bad. The way to keep this from happening by one of two methods:
1) Mount a bow sprit on the bow to increase the space for the sail to jibe through. It is not fullproof, just more forgiving.
2) Unfurl the jib, lock it down and do not touch it, jib the asym (the asym will collapse into the back winded jib), pull the asym though, then release the jib and refurl. This is a high-wind asym jibe trick used on some of the retractable bow sprit race boats.
Much confusion on this thread...
I have a Doyle APC on a TD furler on a bowsprit. (The Doyle UPS is more of a screacher/semi-code 0 sail... I have one too ...also on a separate TD furler - the anti-torsion line is NOT built into the luff on either sail.) It is an amazing, easy to use spinnaker which easily drives the boat to 9 knots in a good downwind breeze and also keeps the boat moving on light wind days too where my barely-overlapping jib is useless. You can use it on a pretty high reach too.... up too about 45 degrees apparent. One downside about this setup is that the tack and therefore luff tension is not adjustable, though some of the more fancier systems can do this. Note... I am NOT talking about the screacher/UPS/code0 or whatever its called here...that's for another thread.
I fly it solo, and though it takes an extra 15 mins or so to set up or put away, I sometimes regret not taking the time to rig it.
At the mooring (or sometimes underway), I'll run the sheets and connect the furler to the tack line on the sprit then run the furling line along the stanchions back to the cockpit. I keep the rest of the rolled-up sail stuffed in the front hatch. When it's time to launch, I pull the sail from the hatch, connect the halyard and hoist the rolled up sail from the cockpit...you need super halyard tension so the anti torsion line works well. Then simply unroll when ready by releasing the furling line and pulling the appropriate sheet. I usually cross sheet to the opposite winch so I can sit to windward to see the luff break. If I have crew or racing, I may jibe it though I will usually just furl and unfurl to jibe just to avoid any headaches. You need to keep an eye on the lazy sheet to make sure it doesn't get wrapped up and start turning with the drum when furling and make sure it doesn't hang up on the anchor or whatever gear you have forward. Usually, the only time I might have to walk forward after hoisting or jibing is to clean up the lines Otherwise, I can be in the safety of the cockpit. Sailing solo, I try to get the sail trimmed so that I can sail to the wind without too much adjustment....head down in the gusts and up in the lulls while keeping an eye on the breaking luff.
When furling, simply allow the spinnaker to luff to roll it up. Do NOT let it collapse fully as it will not roll neatly! If the wind is light put some tension on the sheet or head up a bit to furl it tighter as needed. After its furled, I always drop it to the deck. My sailcloth is a bit heavy and doesn't roll too neatly below the clew so I put the whole thing away rather than sail with it upwind. They put a lot of velcro on the clew to keep it from unrolling but keeps it from rolling up super-tight at the base. I also use a selden double cam/cleat device on the furling attached to stanchion near the cockpit to cleat/uncleat the furling line.
Heavier winds is not a problem to furl as long as the sail is luffing.
ETA: you can rig it to jibe inside or outside...doesn't matter. Inside is fine as long as you have clearance between the anti-torsion line and the headstay. Fractional rig and/or sprit is obviously helpful for inside jibes. Outside jibes require you to keep an eye on the lazy sheet so you don't run over it. Doesn't matter how you rig it if you are going with the furl/unfurl jibe technique though.
ETA2: When I start seeing gusts at 20 knots, I punch out and roll it up. Broaching single handed is something to avoid. Plus, you can't release halyard or tack to recover.
ETA3: I never fly the kite w/out the main unless the wind is super light and I'm just playing around.
I have a Doyle APC on a TD furler on a bowsprit. (The Doyle UPS is more of a screacher/semi-code 0 sail... I have one too ...also on a separate TD furler - the anti-torsion line is NOT built into the luff on either sail.) It is an amazing, easy to use spinnaker which easily drives the boat to 9 knots in a good downwind breeze and also keeps the boat moving on light wind days too where my barely-overlapping jib is useless. You can use it on a pretty high reach too.... up too about 45 degrees apparent. One downside about this setup is that the tack and therefore luff tension is not adjustable, though some of the more fancier systems can do this. Note... I am NOT talking about the screacher/UPS/code0 or whatever its called here...that's for another thread.
I fly it solo, and though it takes an extra 15 mins or so to set up or put away, I sometimes regret not taking the time to rig it.
At the mooring (or sometimes underway), I'll run the sheets and connect the furler to the tack line on the sprit then run the furling line along the stanchions back to the cockpit. I keep the rest of the rolled-up sail stuffed in the front hatch. When it's time to launch, I pull the sail from the hatch, connect the halyard and hoist the rolled up sail from the cockpit...you need super halyard tension so the anti torsion line works well. Then simply unroll when ready by releasing the furling line and pulling the appropriate sheet. I usually cross sheet to the opposite winch so I can sit to windward to see the luff break. If I have crew or racing, I may jibe it though I will usually just furl and unfurl to jibe just to avoid any headaches. You need to keep an eye on the lazy sheet to make sure it doesn't get wrapped up and start turning with the drum when furling and make sure it doesn't hang up on the anchor or whatever gear you have forward. Usually, the only time I might have to walk forward after hoisting or jibing is to clean up the lines Otherwise, I can be in the safety of the cockpit. Sailing solo, I try to get the sail trimmed so that I can sail to the wind without too much adjustment....head down in the gusts and up in the lulls while keeping an eye on the breaking luff.
When furling, simply allow the spinnaker to luff to roll it up. Do NOT let it collapse fully as it will not roll neatly! If the wind is light put some tension on the sheet or head up a bit to furl it tighter as needed. After its furled, I always drop it to the deck. My sailcloth is a bit heavy and doesn't roll too neatly below the clew so I put the whole thing away rather than sail with it upwind. They put a lot of velcro on the clew to keep it from unrolling but keeps it from rolling up super-tight at the base. I also use a selden double cam/cleat device on the furling attached to stanchion near the cockpit to cleat/uncleat the furling line.
Heavier winds is not a problem to furl as long as the sail is luffing.
ETA: you can rig it to jibe inside or outside...doesn't matter. Inside is fine as long as you have clearance between the anti-torsion line and the headstay. Fractional rig and/or sprit is obviously helpful for inside jibes. Outside jibes require you to keep an eye on the lazy sheet so you don't run over it. Doesn't matter how you rig it if you are going with the furl/unfurl jibe technique though.
ETA2: When I start seeing gusts at 20 knots, I punch out and roll it up. Broaching single handed is something to avoid. Plus, you can't release halyard or tack to recover.
ETA3: I never fly the kite w/out the main unless the wind is super light and I'm just playing around.
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