Smoked at the Regatta

[blockboy]

Thank you

Thanks for all of the input. My boat has many reasons why it can't point as well as the others in my class. Shoal keel 5' with winglets, three blade prop, 100% jib. The other boats in by class included a C&C 33, J30's x99's, and Tartan37. Interestingly the handicaps ranged from 111 to 135. From a racing standpoint I was the Hundi stationwagon and they were the audi's. I agree that I would be better off racing against a matched boat to get a better idea of my skills, and try not to worry to muck when comparing myself to the other racers. Interestingly there is a hunter 36? that races alot around LI. He does well, but I understand he has made alot of alterations to his boat. fin keel, mast, sails, ect. I have only been sailing for a couple of years now, but I keep tring to improve everytime i go out, and read up in between.

 

[TomD23576]

Too technical and confusing????

What in the world was too technical and confusing about my post? Was it the term footing or the concept of a shift? I thought it was about as straight forward as you could get. All I said was that most beginners have a tendency to try to point the bow too high into the wind and don't realize that they are losing valuable speed. Meanwhile, John, you are talking about tracking angles relative to pointing angles, making suggestions that he replace his prop in post #6 and then telling him that the effect of the prop is really insignificant in post #12, but then highlight the importance of a super clean and smooth bottom. Talk about confusing the guy - this is when enough is enough. And now you want to talk about vector diagrams? Frank in all my years of racing sailboats, I have never seen or even heard of a vector diagram (not that something like that doesn't exist) - but I wouldn't worry about that one because for the most part racing sailboats becomes something that you will feel rather than measure in exact units. And with experience you will learn what it feels like when the boat is sailing fast and in the groove.So back to the original question as to why Frank was having a problem keeping up with the other boats on the upwind leg of his race. The problem was most likely boatspeed. Unfortunately, solving a boatspeed problem on a forum like this is nearly impossible because of the many different possible reasons and combinations of those reasons. To name a few there is drag (as in your prop or bottom situation), sail condition, sail trim, boat condition, rig tuning, weight (as in the cruising gear that others might not be toting around), driving skills as they pertain to pinching, driving through waves, and accellerating out of tacks, there is wave action, current, wind pressure, wind shifts, and finally, the possibility that you are racing against and comparing yourself to other boats that are simply better performers. Diagnosing the boatspeed problem will be up to Frank as he plays around with all of these different variables and learns over the course of time. But in the interest of keeping it simple, I would look at your GPS or Knotmeter and watch your speed. If you see yourself slowing down without a noticeable change in the wind pressure or speed, then steer the bow down just enough to accellerate back up to speed and focus on keeping the boat sailing as fast as possible. Frank, I do give you the benefit of the doubt that you are an intelligent enough person see the general concept I am talking about here and also to understand that the whole solution might be very complex. But keep playing with your boat until you get it, or seek out a local guy who can show you. In any event don't give up, because when you finally figure it out it is an extremely satisfying feeling to be up in the pack.

 

[TomD23576]

That hunter 36 might be...

Frank-I wonder if that Hunter 36 you are referring to is Alan who actually has a Hunter 35.5? He races in LI and is pretty active on this forum. If you live around him he could probably show you a lot.

 

[Andy]

Wide and fast

First off, you're screwed if they don't give you a liberal PHRF against those other boats. Also, sail wide and fast! You are never going to out point the Jboats, a fact of life. If you are following the J in a Hunter you are probably pinching and losing boat speed. Fall off a little and maintain more boat speed.I'm not sure about the Xboat but I'm pretty sure same would be true for the C&C and Xboat.Keep trying! And remember the first goal is not to be the fastest antelope, just faster than the last! The last one is the lion's meal. slowly work your way up the line.Good luck

 

[Stu Jackson]

Read what's been said, please

Your prop and the size of your jib will NOT affect your pointing ability.Your keel wll.

 

[Ross]

Check to see if the club has an award for best

attitude. If lunch time comes during the race stop and fix lunch. Sailing is about having fun not going hungry.

 

[blockboy]

You guys are making me laugh

It is Alan that I was refering to with the Hunter.I am not scared with all of the techno mumbo jumbo ( I took physics during college) and understand the concepts. The problem in the original post was pointing during the upwind leg. There are other problems as well but this was the first one encountered (I figured out the start) that I was going to focus on.When approaching a problem there are often many factors which play a role n fixing it. Everyone is offering suggestions, but not in a logical way. Here is one way I will approach it next timePre RaceBoatTrain to learn the best pointing heading for maximun VMG (Isn't that the goal)Insure that the bottom is cleanLook at tide and currents for the race time to use that advantage if possibleUpgradesGenoa carsPossible used or borrowed 135 or 150 genoa ( I'm not bying new sails)Feathering prop is even less likey anyone have one cheap Re read sail trim, review some of the books in my libraryRace DayLook at weather forcast, tides and currentsGet out earlyobserve current windsset out on first leg, tweek sails, observe speed, headingUse chartplotter to calculate heading and tracking vectorsCarry cheat sheet for sail trim and step by step instructionsRaceBinoculars in the cockpitSail my own raceuse checklist to insure proper trimBTW Don, the sailing charts are great, but smaller ones about the size of index cars for different points of sail are what I'll be using, less likely to be lost when put down.Check out other boats trimI don't expect to beat the J's, I just want to have some fun. As far as the ratings go, the difference between the highest rating and lowest rating was about 24, 111 to 135. Does anyone know how the points are calcuated in for the final times?

 

[TomD23576]

Stu

Why do you say that prop and headsail size don't effect pointing ability?

 

[s sauer]

Not thew Genoa Cars

Frank,You've been good natured with all the information, some misinformation and all the well meaning advice everyone has given. I can't resist one more: bag the adjustable genoa cars for much later in the process. I've been racing a well set up Hunter 28.5 for 21 years that points like you wouldn't believe and I move the windward cars by hand before a tack if I feel it necessary. I did drill extra holes on closer centers for fine tuning the car locations - its a little anal at that point but it works! Mark your race course compass headings in pencil on a bulkhead where you can see them and try the outhaul adjustments till you see what works for your main.I've got to go back at the three blade fixed prop- save the money on the adjustable cars put it toward a feathering prop. Go back and read the owner reviews on the Hunter site for other 38's with feathering props. Next spring sand the bottom paint to smooth it out and at least apply the new paint with a foam roller - 2 for $5.00 at Worst Marine, but it will be an easy improvement.Scrubbing the bottom before a light air (or even a medium air) race is worth a half knot on our boat. Not having your prop spinning and creating turbulence in front of the rudder makes a slight difference in pointing as well.Fair winds...

 

[sand sailor]

i think the fractional rig

will generally not point as well as a mast head rig because of the driving force of the jib. not having that you have a furling main??? two points against you there due to the turbulence from the mast being very critical when pointing and not being able to keep a proper sail shape due to the furler you cant get the sails to set so i would go for the wide and fast method.go for a ride on a masthead rig and push it hard to see what i meani dont know that a larger jib would help with windward pointing i think it would distort the main even more with no way to tune itplease tell me i'm up in the night with this one but the more i think about it the more it makes sense

 

[John Nantz]

To TomD:

Just got back from a good day sailing today and I'm tired. However, to respond to your post, #22:Feathering prop vs. three-blade prop: there are two issues - (1) drag, and, (2) the time allowance for the fixed blade. Drag: With regard to reducing drag with a feathering/folding prop there will be a boat speed increase of around .4 to .5 kts over a fixed two-blade prop. I don't know what it would be for a three-blade but it would certainly be a larger increase. How does this speed affect trim? If the true wind stays the same the speed increase will result in a higher apparent wind. More apparent wind = a change in trim because the wind angle moves forward. Is this speed increase, say ½ kt, enough to require a trim change on this boat? Technically, yes, some adjustment would be required to flatten the sail and of course all the vectors would change too. But, assuming factory original sails and a furling main, I'm assuming it's doubtful this small of a change would be noticable. One hears in the Americas Cup races when the announcer says "the boats make their own wind". The speed increase with a low-drag prop does the same thing by causing an increase in the apparent wind speed.Time allowance: With regard to the second item, the need to replace the prop, the penalty for the feathering prop, seconds/mile, isn't typically enough to compensate for the faster speed one gets from it. Granted, every PHRF handicap area is a little different, but in our area the penalty in no way is enough to compensate for the increased speed and every racer will tell you that. Virtually ALL the top boats that I know of have low-drag propellers (or outboards). That, in itself, should tell you something.With regard to your Post #16: I never used the word ONLY - that is something you came up with - when talking about pointing with regard to trim. And, I also never got into the subject matter area of how a person could/should helm the boat relative the wind angles. If the helmsman wants to pinch, which is what you're talking about, that's something else altogether. I can only assume the helmsman wants to sail the boat in an optimum manner according to the boat's polars. Perhaps I assumed too much (you know what they say about assume ) and probably should have said, say, "optimum" pointing angle.

 

[Don Guillette]

Phoenix, AZ

Sand Sailor: Where do you sail your boat? I assume Lake Pleasant. It is hard to tell from the picture so what are you sailing?

 

[Stu Jackson]

Tom, since you asked

U asked: "Why do you say that prop and headsail size don't effect pointing ability?"1. John Nantz correctly answered in great detail. Going faster will change the vectors, but just a tad, since .4 knots is X % of six or seven knots (even five or six). One could do the math, but the balance is really the difference in the ratings, which, theoretically SHOULD cancel them out. Perhaps George Bean, our C34 International Assoc Chief Measurer could chime in here.2. Headsail: it all depends on what the "starting point' is. We have a 110, the max headsail here on SF Bay in Fleet One is a 130. We race in the same wind, they beat my backside going downwind, but in the right conditions I can do VERY well upwind and on a reach. I have, many times, "taken" 130's on the reaching legs, that's if, indeed, the race committee sets the course to have one. Uphill downhill races are not necessarily good for me. In any given wind, the boat, with whatever size headsail, should be able to point, the difference would be the speed.But I must humbly admit to some degree of success, which gets us back to the original question that was asked...how do I get better? -- Keep racing -- Incorporate (some of) the knowledge shared here on the techniques, which can ONLY be learned by DOING IT and BEING OUT THERE, step-by-step, inch-by-inch (row-by-row, there's that danged John Denver again!!!)

 

[sand sailor]

a santana 27 (see profile)

and i love it been on many boats and wanted the biggest i could single hand and still get on a trailer its my first they make a 40' but way out of my budget

 

[John Nantz]

PHRF Racing and "Politics" or "Legal Battles"

The news about the America's Cup this year was about all the fighting going on in courtrooms. Is this what sailing has become?And it isn't just with the America's Cup. It's also with other races. In 1988 a Westsail 32 won the Pacific Cup race from San Francisco to Hawaii on handicap. (GASP!) This, not surprisingly, created a huge uproar from the high-performance community. Pacific Cup link: http://www.pacificcup.org/book/export/html/36Locally (Pacific Northwest) it seems that people are always doing battle with their handicap (this is my perspective) to get a better number. Some are good at this and others seem to just live with it. And a lot depends on your handicapper.And there are still others, it seems, that have to, shall we say, find other creative ways to improve performance and I don't mean taking performance enhancing drugs like what is in the news today. Things like, say, removing stuff. For example. Cushions, tables, etc., what ever will lighten the boat. The idea is to put the boat into "racing trim" insn't it?The original intent of PHRF was to allow crusing boats to compete on a somewhat level playing field. A venue where cruisers who had a competitive streak could play on a budget without having to have a racing machine. What it has become locally is somewhat of a club with the same old boats year after year. A new boat comes along and they get slammed with a fast handicap until after a few years where the new guy "pays his dues" and - maybe - the handicap can be adjusted. In the meantime the new boat guy has put many hours and bucks into trying to become competitive.A couple years ago a Hunter 40 from Olympia won an important leg of the Swiftsure Race - the good ol' boys with the "real" race boats didn't like that and he was hardly mentioned in the local boating magazines. I think the only mention was in the place listings.I think PHRF up here has a ways to go to get their membership and participation up to what it used to be several decades ago and until they deal with this handicap problem I think they will continue to have poor participation. They recognize this, have tried to deal with it, but seemingly with only minimal success.Realize this is just one persons opinion and doesn't represent the rest of Northwest sailors.