I just tried my first club regatta this weekend with my Hunter 38. We didn't do well. My biggest problem was pointing during the upwind leg. I thought I followed the sail trim rules for the conditions of 10-13 knots. Jib cars aft, all tell tails streaming. Main sail center, traveler center outhaul taught to move the draft aft and keep the sails flat. Main tells tales streaming and the middle flicked every couple of seconds. While the other boats tended to point better, I needed to veer off to 35 degrees ( or more ) off apparent wind to keep boat speed, and they still seemed to gain ground. Any suggestions?
Smoked at the Regatta
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Jib cars
You might wish to take another look at your jib car location. When located properly, the top and bottom of your jib should start to luff at the same time. If it is too far back, the top of the sail will luff first (spilling wind) and you won't be able to point as high. Too far forward and the bottom of the sail will luff first. We usually have ours set so the top of the sail luffs just a bit before the bottom of the sail. This spills a bit of wind in a gust.
You might wish to take another look at your jib car location. When located properly, the top and bottom of your jib should start to luff at the same time. If it is too far back, the top of the sail will luff first (spilling wind) and you won't be able to point as high. Too far forward and the bottom of the sail will luff first. We usually have ours set so the top of the sail luffs just a bit before the bottom of the sail. This spills a bit of wind in a gust.
Pointing
Frank: I think I can help you but first I want to see some more replies from forum listers in hopes of keping this discussion going. Is your Hunter38 a fractional or masthead rig? The first thing that jumped out at me was the "flat sails".
Frank: I think I can help you but first I want to see some more replies from forum listers in hopes of keping this discussion going. Is your Hunter38 a fractional or masthead rig? The first thing that jumped out at me was the "flat sails".
Racing Prep?
How is the boat set up? What size headsail; on Roller furler? Roller furled main? Deep or shoal keel? Fixed or folding ;two or three blade prop? Hull and keel recently scrubbed? The first three have to do with the available driving force in thre rig and the last three relate to how much under body drag ofsetts the sail power. It's only fair to rate your performance against similarly rigged boats; how were similarly set up boats doing?
How is the boat set up? What size headsail; on Roller furler? Roller furled main? Deep or shoal keel? Fixed or folding ;two or three blade prop? Hull and keel recently scrubbed? The first three have to do with the available driving force in thre rig and the last three relate to how much under body drag ofsetts the sail power. It's only fair to rate your performance against similarly rigged boats; how were similarly set up boats doing?
Boat specs
Furling mast and jib. Fin Keel. Three blade prop. Fractional rig. I believe all of the other boats were mast head rigs. No hunters. The jib cars were about midway. The top of the jib was not spilling too much.
Furling mast and jib. Fin Keel. Three blade prop. Fractional rig. I believe all of the other boats were mast head rigs. No hunters. The jib cars were about midway. The top of the jib was not spilling too much.
keep trying
Frank, first...congrats on racing. Not many "cruisers" take the plung into racing becasue they think that is nothing more than a bunch of yelling, high testosterone crazy people. (well, that's aprtly true) The first race always is the hardest as you don't know where you stand vs. other boats, you don't know if your rig is set up correctly, and a host of other things. Don't worry too much. Every race you do on your boat will improove your sail trim, sail handling and helmsmanship!!! FWIW.....some boats just point better.
Frank, first...congrats on racing. Not many "cruisers" take the plung into racing becasue they think that is nothing more than a bunch of yelling, high testosterone crazy people. (well, that's aprtly true) The first race always is the hardest as you don't know where you stand vs. other boats, you don't know if your rig is set up correctly, and a host of other things. Don't worry too much. Every race you do on your boat will improove your sail trim, sail handling and helmsmanship!!! FWIW.....some boats just point better.
Three-Blade Prop
Prop: Take the prop off and install a feathering/folding prop. That'll help your tracking angle a lot. I'll guarentee you that none of the top finishers or regulars had a fixed three-blade prop. The handicap allowance for the fixed prop is never enough to compensate for the drag. Bottom: Next thing to check is the bottom. It should be c-l-e-a-n and s-m-o-o-t-h. If it was painted this spring then a diver should go on it and give it a good cleaning. Furling main: What credit did you get in your handicap for the main?
Prop: Take the prop off and install a feathering/folding prop. That'll help your tracking angle a lot. I'll guarentee you that none of the top finishers or regulars had a fixed three-blade prop. The handicap allowance for the fixed prop is never enough to compensate for the drag. Bottom: Next thing to check is the bottom. It should be c-l-e-a-n and s-m-o-o-t-h. If it was painted this spring then a diver should go on it and give it a good cleaning. Furling main: What credit did you get in your handicap for the main?
First time
Great! Now that you have have finished your first race I'm sure you have a different perspective of your boat's performance. Some boats just don't point as high as others. Don't try to force your boat to something it's just is not designed to do well. If you're pinching upwind to stay as high as the other boats you are probably doing more harm than good. How was your finish time compared to the rest of the fleet? Were you more than 30 seconds a mile slower than your PHRF rating? I've raced on fairly well prepared boats that finished poorly for one reason or another. Sure boat prep and sail trim are important but I've seen poor helming place an potentially top three finishing boat in the back of the pack. I was on a boat last season and couldn't believe how poorly the skipper was steering it. The sails were trimmed properly for the conditions. After the first upwind leg we were dead last against a fleet of slower boats. The second upwind leg was helmed by someone else who had more experience and concentration. We moved up to the middle of the fleet with ease. Don't be dissappointed. I'm sure you're racing against some very experienced skippers. The first time racing is usually an eye opener. Your time will come.
Great! Now that you have have finished your first race I'm sure you have a different perspective of your boat's performance. Some boats just don't point as high as others. Don't try to force your boat to something it's just is not designed to do well. If you're pinching upwind to stay as high as the other boats you are probably doing more harm than good. How was your finish time compared to the rest of the fleet? Were you more than 30 seconds a mile slower than your PHRF rating? I've raced on fairly well prepared boats that finished poorly for one reason or another. Sure boat prep and sail trim are important but I've seen poor helming place an potentially top three finishing boat in the back of the pack. I was on a boat last season and couldn't believe how poorly the skipper was steering it. The sails were trimmed properly for the conditions. After the first upwind leg we were dead last against a fleet of slower boats. The second upwind leg was helmed by someone else who had more experience and concentration. We moved up to the middle of the fleet with ease. Don't be dissappointed. I'm sure you're racing against some very experienced skippers. The first time racing is usually an eye opener. Your time will come.
Keel and pointing
I've seen many Hunters with small winglets on their keels that have been bent from groundings. Lead is soft and is easily bent. Those bent winglets will hurt boat speed and pointing. Any chance that you might have that problem?
I've seen many Hunters with small winglets on their keels that have been bent from groundings. Lead is soft and is easily bent. Those bent winglets will hurt boat speed and pointing. Any chance that you might have that problem?
Cruising Class
John Nantz is right on about the three blade prop; there's no way around it, it's like you're dragging a bucket, but the bottom finish is something you can easily do something about. Roller furling Jib or Genoa - you might just look into a used genoa to get the largest headsail the boat will carry, even if you use it just for racing and/or light air. Meanwhile, look for a Cruising Class Fleet to work on your skills against similar cruising boats. The roller furling main could have an advantage in heavy air as well.
John Nantz is right on about the three blade prop; there's no way around it, it's like you're dragging a bucket, but the bottom finish is something you can easily do something about. Roller furling Jib or Genoa - you might just look into a used genoa to get the largest headsail the boat will carry, even if you use it just for racing and/or light air. Meanwhile, look for a Cruising Class Fleet to work on your skills against similar cruising boats. The roller furling main could have an advantage in heavy air as well.
Cruising class II
I agree that John's right, but that drag from your prop has nothing or little to do with your pointing ability. Either your boat won't, your sails won't or you haven't been able to, YET.
It took me years to learn how to sail my particular boat (I mean SAIL) and learn "The GROOVE" Many of us have been where your are now. The advice to keep trying, and deal with your rating handicap (not your personal one) is VERY important.
I agree that John's right, but that drag from your prop has nothing or little to do with your pointing ability. Either your boat won't, your sails won't or you haven't been able to, YET.
It took me years to learn how to sail my particular boat (I mean SAIL) and learn "The GROOVE" Many of us have been where your are now. The advice to keep trying, and deal with your rating handicap (not your personal one) is VERY important.I agree with all of the assessments
The three blade prop added 12 to the rating 100% jib +6 Misc +12 Rating was 132 with the spinnaker, 135 without. The bottom was cleaned at the end of July. As far as the winglets, they are short and thick on my boat, but it is a possibility. Looking back on things and after review of sail trim, I believe there are several areas for improvement 1. helm and course. I should have been more vigilent with steering. I was trying to point more than my boat would handle, thus losing boat speed. 2. I didn't have the engine in reverse 3. Jib could have been set for a better angle of attack. I was trying to point and thus lost boat speed with the oncoming swells and current. 4. Crew. I had several sailors who bailed at the last minute, and my only other crew had never sailed before. enough said 5. Consider upgrading to adjustable genoa cars 6. Add another genoa possibly 135 for this occasion 7. Practice practice practice 8. mainsail. ease outhaul to increase draft depth and gain power. the boat was not heeling more than 15 degrees
The three blade prop added 12 to the rating 100% jib +6 Misc +12 Rating was 132 with the spinnaker, 135 without. The bottom was cleaned at the end of July. As far as the winglets, they are short and thick on my boat, but it is a possibility. Looking back on things and after review of sail trim, I believe there are several areas for improvement 1. helm and course. I should have been more vigilent with steering. I was trying to point more than my boat would handle, thus losing boat speed. 2. I didn't have the engine in reverse 3. Jib could have been set for a better angle of attack. I was trying to point and thus lost boat speed with the oncoming swells and current. 4. Crew. I had several sailors who bailed at the last minute, and my only other crew had never sailed before. enough said 5. Consider upgrading to adjustable genoa cars 6. Add another genoa possibly 135 for this occasion 7. Practice practice practice 8. mainsail. ease outhaul to increase draft depth and gain power. the boat was not heeling more than 15 degrees
Pointing and Tracking
Stu's right about the drag from your prop having nothing or little to do with your pointing ability. Pointing ability has to do with the rig, sails, trim, and wind, in other words, the stuff above the waterline. Pointing is the angle between the centerline of the boat and the wind, apparent or true, depending on what you want to use. If one wanted to split hairs, then a feathering prop with less drag than a three-blade fixed prop would allow the boat to go faster (maybe .4 to .5 kts) and therefore the trim and pointing angle will be slightly different but this is probably miniscule and would be difficult to measure. Where the really BIG difference comes from is the tracking angle, the angle the boat is actually making against the wind. With the tracking angle, everything below the waterline is highly important, especially drag. Drag! That ugly, bad, DRAG! The more drag there is the more the boat will sideslip. You can see this visually by looking at a couple landmarks in the direction the boat is headed and which are one behind the other. Also, if you're tracking behind or in front of another boat you could see what the delta is in the angle between their tracking angle and your tracking angle. If you're behind another boat there will be a 'bad air' factor that has to be thrown in. If there is adverse current this can look like sideslip even though it isn't. Speaking of current, racing in our area, and probably yours too, one must take into account current and eddies as they are there to be used to your advantage. Frank - you did a good after-race analysis.
Stu's right about the drag from your prop having nothing or little to do with your pointing ability. Pointing ability has to do with the rig, sails, trim, and wind, in other words, the stuff above the waterline. Pointing is the angle between the centerline of the boat and the wind, apparent or true, depending on what you want to use. If one wanted to split hairs, then a feathering prop with less drag than a three-blade fixed prop would allow the boat to go faster (maybe .4 to .5 kts) and therefore the trim and pointing angle will be slightly different but this is probably miniscule and would be difficult to measure. Where the really BIG difference comes from is the tracking angle, the angle the boat is actually making against the wind. With the tracking angle, everything below the waterline is highly important, especially drag. Drag! That ugly, bad, DRAG! The more drag there is the more the boat will sideslip. You can see this visually by looking at a couple landmarks in the direction the boat is headed and which are one behind the other. Also, if you're tracking behind or in front of another boat you could see what the delta is in the angle between their tracking angle and your tracking angle. If you're behind another boat there will be a 'bad air' factor that has to be thrown in. If there is adverse current this can look like sideslip even though it isn't. Speaking of current, racing in our area, and probably yours too, one must take into account current and eddies as they are there to be used to your advantage. Frank - you did a good after-race analysis.
Just to add, that was a good review,
that one advantage I picked up from starting out at the back of the pack when we started racing is that not only was I able to check the other boats' pointing, I also got to check their sail configurations and sets: depth of draft on the main (most of the good racers had bed sheet flat mainsails here on SF Bay), location of jib sheet fairleads, position of boom, etc. You CAN learn from behind, but heck don't get too used to it.
that one advantage I picked up from starting out at the back of the pack when we started racing is that not only was I able to check the other boats' pointing, I also got to check their sail configurations and sets: depth of draft on the main (most of the good racers had bed sheet flat mainsails here on SF Bay), location of jib sheet fairleads, position of boom, etc. You CAN learn from behind, but heck don't get too used to it.
John - I couldn't disagree with you more about...
your theory that pointing only has to do with everything above the waterline. One of the biggest mistakes beginner racers do upwind is try to sail too high sacrificing speed. Speed through the water is what allows the underwater foils (keel and rudder both) to provide lift. The lack of speed causes those foils to stall and that is when you go sideways. The more speed through the water, the more lift from the foils. Therefore a 3 bladed prop would greatly reduce you pointing ability in that it would not allow you to sail as fast through the water as the same boat with a feathering prop. That being said, cruising boats with short stubby wing keels will not point as well as a boat with a fin keel anyway. Therefore, to make the most out of your disadvantage going in, you would want to foot off a few degrees and make sure that the boat is always sailing at maximum speed. The bottom line is that if you choose to race against boats that are designed to go upwind better, then you will have no choice but to sail farther then them, so foot off and sail as fast as you can, and find that shift that they didn't. If you try to follow them and your boat is not capable of that, your loss of speed will hurt you badly.
your theory that pointing only has to do with everything above the waterline. One of the biggest mistakes beginner racers do upwind is try to sail too high sacrificing speed. Speed through the water is what allows the underwater foils (keel and rudder both) to provide lift. The lack of speed causes those foils to stall and that is when you go sideways. The more speed through the water, the more lift from the foils. Therefore a 3 bladed prop would greatly reduce you pointing ability in that it would not allow you to sail as fast through the water as the same boat with a feathering prop. That being said, cruising boats with short stubby wing keels will not point as well as a boat with a fin keel anyway. Therefore, to make the most out of your disadvantage going in, you would want to foot off a few degrees and make sure that the boat is always sailing at maximum speed. The bottom line is that if you choose to race against boats that are designed to go upwind better, then you will have no choice but to sail farther then them, so foot off and sail as fast as you can, and find that shift that they didn't. If you try to follow them and your boat is not capable of that, your loss of speed will hurt you badly.
That's the problem with this kind of forum....
Tom - I've seen it time and time again, when a post starts out and people provide some input and then things get technical, and then perhaps a little too technical. When is enough enough? We're talking about a production boat with a stub keel, probably a regular type of bottom paint, no keel or underbelly fairing, no rudder gap closures, perhaps through-hulls that aren't flush, three blade prop.... this is not a racing underbelly. Add personal gear and food stuff from weekend cruising and we've got a heavier boat that sits lower in the water. So now that we're trying to help someone move up the ladder rungs in the fleet perhaps you could go into detail on this. Maybe even show us some vector diagrams so we know where to put the effort. For starters, how many degrees shoud he foot off and how should the angles be determined? How does this change with wind speed? Given the various ideas presented so far, how would you rank them for importance?
Tom - I've seen it time and time again, when a post starts out and people provide some input and then things get technical, and then perhaps a little too technical. When is enough enough? We're talking about a production boat with a stub keel, probably a regular type of bottom paint, no keel or underbelly fairing, no rudder gap closures, perhaps through-hulls that aren't flush, three blade prop.... this is not a racing underbelly. Add personal gear and food stuff from weekend cruising and we've got a heavier boat that sits lower in the water. So now that we're trying to help someone move up the ladder rungs in the fleet perhaps you could go into detail on this. Maybe even show us some vector diagrams so we know where to put the effort. For starters, how many degrees shoud he foot off and how should the angles be determined? How does this change with wind speed? Given the various ideas presented so far, how would you rank them for importance?
Don’t Need to Make Things Complicated
Oops! Couldn’t get the photo to post. Needless to say it was of Stu checking out our trim while overlapped slightly ahead and windward of us. (Can I post photos directly from my computer or do they need to be first posted to an internet site?) I don’t think Frank has to do the boat mods people are prescribing in order to move from DFL to “mid pack”. Working on sail trim will pay off a lot more at this point. Something that I didn’t pick up on earlier – is this a fin boat or a shoal (wing) keel? How deep is your draft? The foot difference between fin and wing draft could translate to as much as 10 degrees in your tacking angle. The only remedy (outside of buying another boat) is to do the best trim possible and win races based on tactics, not superior tacking angles. Increasing boat speed by eliminating under water drag will have a minor impact to your tacking angle compared to either superior trim or modifications you do to the sails/rigging. My major improvements to tacking angle have all been made above the water line. Superior boat speed will enable you to run down someone on a beat and perhaps give you a little passing power but that’s it. Don’t expect a smooth bottom alone to make you out lift everybody else. Finally, you do get to a point where boat mods will give you diminishing returns in the boat speed area. Remember: Speed costs – how fast can you afford to pay?
Oops! Couldn’t get the photo to post. Needless to say it was of Stu checking out our trim while overlapped slightly ahead and windward of us. (Can I post photos directly from my computer or do they need to be first posted to an internet site?) I don’t think Frank has to do the boat mods people are prescribing in order to move from DFL to “mid pack”. Working on sail trim will pay off a lot more at this point. Something that I didn’t pick up on earlier – is this a fin boat or a shoal (wing) keel? How deep is your draft? The foot difference between fin and wing draft could translate to as much as 10 degrees in your tacking angle. The only remedy (outside of buying another boat) is to do the best trim possible and win races based on tactics, not superior tacking angles. Increasing boat speed by eliminating under water drag will have a minor impact to your tacking angle compared to either superior trim or modifications you do to the sails/rigging. My major improvements to tacking angle have all been made above the water line. Superior boat speed will enable you to run down someone on a beat and perhaps give you a little passing power but that’s it. Don’t expect a smooth bottom alone to make you out lift everybody else. Finally, you do get to a point where boat mods will give you diminishing returns in the boat speed area. Remember: Speed costs – how fast can you afford to pay?
Yes, George, you can post directly
Just above the "Write now" box when you reply is a check-circle that says: "I have a photo to post with my reply (Allows one photo only)" Just check that, hit submit and follow the directions. I think I know which photo you are referring to, would love to see it again.
Just above the "Write now" box when you reply is a check-circle that says: "I have a photo to post with my reply (Allows one photo only)" Just check that, hit submit and follow the directions. I think I know which photo you are referring to, would love to see it again.
There is hope
Frank: You have recieved a number of good suggestions. Stu's was a good one and that is to check out the #1, #2, #3 and #4 position boats and mimic their sail trim. Your sail trim controls are pretty well set except you need some draft depth in the main. The closer you get to say over 15 knots of wind the flatter you want to be because a flat sail is a less powerful sail. 10 to 13 knots is the ideal wind speed and where you want the power and that equates draft depth - just like the flaps on a plane. I get the feeling your jib is small say 110 to 115 and there is really not a lot you can do with that small a sail area. Another suggestion is to get the skipper of one of the top boats to go out with you and provide suggestions. A good crew is an important factor but that can be easily overcome by YOU knowing what to do and advising your crew accordingly. Beer can racing is very frustatrating to me. I done all kinds of racing from beer can to off shore and long distance. My least favorite is long distance (it bores me) followed by beer can. There is just something about racing that I want to be first over the finish line regarless of anything else. I never cared that PHRF or handicap leveled the field. Again, that is just me. Some guys love that type of racing. My most favorite kind of racing is match racing where two equal boats go head to head. If there is a boat in the fleet similiar to yours ask him if would like to practice head to head with you. That is where you'll find out yoursail trim capability and that of your boats. Don't get frustrated. Next race "race yourself". In other words, after the race you should review your performance and if you did everything right it is a win. Next, look at every leg of the race as a separate race. Generally the skippers I sail with are middle to back of the pack that want to improve and that is how I have them approach the course. Lastly, next race try to improve just 1 position. In other words, concentrate on picking off the boat in front of you. The following race, try to pick off 2 boats. Sail trim is everything. Without good sail trim your wasting your race entrance fee. "Hoping" to do better does not move you up in the standings - sail trim does.
Frank: You have recieved a number of good suggestions. Stu's was a good one and that is to check out the #1, #2, #3 and #4 position boats and mimic their sail trim. Your sail trim controls are pretty well set except you need some draft depth in the main. The closer you get to say over 15 knots of wind the flatter you want to be because a flat sail is a less powerful sail. 10 to 13 knots is the ideal wind speed and where you want the power and that equates draft depth - just like the flaps on a plane. I get the feeling your jib is small say 110 to 115 and there is really not a lot you can do with that small a sail area. Another suggestion is to get the skipper of one of the top boats to go out with you and provide suggestions. A good crew is an important factor but that can be easily overcome by YOU knowing what to do and advising your crew accordingly. Beer can racing is very frustatrating to me. I done all kinds of racing from beer can to off shore and long distance. My least favorite is long distance (it bores me) followed by beer can. There is just something about racing that I want to be first over the finish line regarless of anything else. I never cared that PHRF or handicap leveled the field. Again, that is just me. Some guys love that type of racing. My most favorite kind of racing is match racing where two equal boats go head to head. If there is a boat in the fleet similiar to yours ask him if would like to practice head to head with you. That is where you'll find out yoursail trim capability and that of your boats. Don't get frustrated. Next race "race yourself". In other words, after the race you should review your performance and if you did everything right it is a win. Next, look at every leg of the race as a separate race. Generally the skippers I sail with are middle to back of the pack that want to improve and that is how I have them approach the course. Lastly, next race try to improve just 1 position. In other words, concentrate on picking off the boat in front of you. The following race, try to pick off 2 boats. Sail trim is everything. Without good sail trim your wasting your race entrance fee. "Hoping" to do better does not move you up in the standings - sail trim does.
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