Small fin ahead of rudder? Baby skeg?

Sep 18, 2022
102
Macgregor 25 Cincinnati
Something I noticed on the Cat 25’s as I’ve been shopping; A wee “skeg” just ahead of the rudder. It only comes down about 8” so it’s not a skeg. So, what is it called and what are its benefits?
Probably a bit of added course stability? Safer in a following sea?

1665664877917.png
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,040
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
It is an aide to align the flow of water over the rudder. As Dave says "improve tracking".
If not there, turbulence would occur on the forward edge of the rudder reducing it's effectiveness.
 
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Sep 18, 2022
102
Macgregor 25 Cincinnati
So, follow up question… is there anything keeping ya from adding one to an otherwise smooth boat?
Other than money, the technical challenge of the fiberglass work, affixing with/without thru holes, etc.

I am about to undertake quite a bit of underside work. I’ve built something similar in carbon fiber, for a couple of kayaks for surfing. This would be an increase in scale.... though sanding down to glass gives me the willies.
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,040
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
All depends on the boat and the design. I can not see any major problems.
 
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Jun 11, 2004
1,697
Oday 31 Redondo Beach
So, follow up question… is there anything keeping ya from adding one to an otherwise smooth boat?
Other than money, the technical challenge of the fiberglass work, affixing with/without thru holes, etc.
Do you mean adding on to the existing "skeg"? Or putting one onto a boat that doesn't already have one?
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,137
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
So, follow up question… is there anything keeping ya from adding one to an otherwise smooth boat?
Other than money, the technical challenge of the fiberglass work, affixing with/without thru holes, etc.

I am about to undertake quite a bit of underside work. I’ve built something similar in carbon fiber, for a couple of kayaks for surfing. This would be an increase in scale.... though sanding down to glass gives me the willies.
The only question would be why? These boats aren't designed by backyard builders. These are designed by naval architects. I wonder why any of us would think that we know better than the architect.
 
Dec 25, 2000
5,852
Hunter Passage 42 Shelter Bay, WA
The only question would be why?
Dave has a sage question. Why on earth would someone want to remove a designed in fixture placed there for a purpose before understanding why the architect/builder placed it there in the first place. Always a puzzle why owners do that rather than purchasing a boat that more closely fits their needs.

Our boat came with a shoal draft keel with wings. Odd sort of thing, I suppose one could cut them off so that the keel looked more normal, but the architect designed them for a reason, so I left them on.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
12,137
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Our boat came with a shoal draft keel with wings. Odd sort of thing, I suppose one could cut them off so that the keel looked more normal, but the architect designed them for a reason, so I left them on.
Wing keels became the rage when Australia won the America's Cup for the first time in the mid 1980s. Their boat had a wing keel. On Australia the wings were there to beat a rule in the 12 Meter Class Rules. The theory is more lift is generated when the boat heels and more weight could be placed at the extreme end of the keel helping to keep the boat flat in a breeze.

Different builders tried different solutions. The wings on some Hunters is reminiscent of the wings on a ray. The wings on my keel look more like a jet's wings. For cruisers using wing keels yields a shallower draft without going to a full or semi full keel. Weight can be placed low and the wings allegedly offset some of the penalty for having a shoal draft. I don't know much difference the wings make in pointing ability. I do know that getting a wing keel out of the mud is a challenge, kedging doesn't work. Don't ask.
 
Sep 18, 2022
102
Macgregor 25 Cincinnati
I wonder why any of us would think that we know better than the architect.
Because the naval architect doesn't build the boat. Someone above him points at his features and says "That adds cost and mold complexity for a performance perk that we cant justify at this price point", and the architect gets overridden. My cheap boat has a smooth arse.

I am an engineer, it's actually pretty rare that we get what we want... unless I make it myself in my home shop.

So, because I'm not a specialist, I ask. There doesn't seem to be a downside to having one as long putting in doesn't compromise the hull.
 
Sep 18, 2022
102
Macgregor 25 Cincinnati
Our boat came with a shoal draft keel with wings. Odd sort of thing, I suppose one could cut them off so that the keel looked more normal, but the architect designed them for a reason, so I left them on.
Nobody is talking about removing anything, and wing keels are actually a brilliant work around to a complicated hydrodynamic problem.
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,137
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Nobody is talking about removing anything, and wing keels are actually a brilliant work around to a complicated hydrodynamic problem.
If only they really worked. If they had, there would be more boats built with them now, there aren't. Wing keels were a fad.
 
Sep 18, 2022
102
Macgregor 25 Cincinnati
If only they really worked. If they had, there would be more boats built with them now, there aren't. Wing keels were a fad.
Yup, it was a narrow market. Take away the rules that spawned this innovation, and you've got a something with half of the benefits of a fin keel, and half of the advantages of a swing keel.
 
Dec 25, 2000
5,852
Hunter Passage 42 Shelter Bay, WA
So, based on all this chatter that you seemed to have dismissed, what has the original poster decided/concluded?
 
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Sep 18, 2022
102
Macgregor 25 Cincinnati
So, based on all this chatter that you seemed to have dismissed, what has the original poster decided/concluded?
Well, seems simple enough to test out. I can shape it out of wood and glue it to to bottom. I have until it falls off to determine if it helps.
 
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Jan 1, 2006
7,351
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I think most would think a skeg would add stability. And it may. But others say it adds drag and not much stability. I think that question was what made the J24 such a revolutionary boat. No skeg - transom hung rudder. It proved the skeg wasn't necessary. But with the provision that you have to have rail meat.
My Ranger 29 was considered squirrelly down wind and it had a skeg. I never found that to be true but I didn't fly the spinnaker in challenging conditions. I think the skeg could be a hindrance to the stern of the boat rotating when necessary as the wind shifted. It might be better if the transom can slide to stay under the spinnaker. That's only speculation.
 
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Nov 26, 2012
1,654
C&C 40-2 Berkeley
It is an aide to align the flow of water over the rudder. As Dave says "improve tracking".
If not there, turbulence would occur on the forward edge of the rudder reducing it's effectiveness.
Then why don’t all boats have them?
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,137
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Then why don’t all boats have them?
Depends on the hull form, keel, rudder placement and designer's goals. In the photo above the aft sections of the hull are broad, flat and upswept, that would make for good maneuverability as there is less lateral resistance which also means poorer tracking.

Boats like the Ranger 29 were influenced by the IOR rating rule which tended to favor boats with skinny butts and V shaped hulls. This made for pretty a fast upwind boat and as @shemandr notes, boats that are quite squirrelly under a spinnaker in a blow. The J24 broke away from the IOR tradition and broader aft sections and a flatter bottom. This was particularly beneficial with a spinnaker as it is easier to surf a J24 than an IOR influenced boat, making it a faster design.
 
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Sep 18, 2022
102
Macgregor 25 Cincinnati
Depends on the hull form, keel, rudder placement and designer's goals.
I could see how, apart from manufacturing complexity, a small cruiser may be intended to lack this feature. 25's and under tend to be peoples first boats. Meaning their first time navigating marinas et al. Sacrificing a bit of tracking to give us the ability to pivot more quickly when we cock up would be a valid design choice.

I've had some nasty broaches running with flat bilges and a smooth bum, and it doesn't sound like this will do a lot to mitigate that. Nuts, guess I'll just have to become a better sailor.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
12,137
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I could see how, apart from manufacturing complexity, a small cruiser may be intended to lack this feature. 25's and under tend to be peoples first boats. Meaning their first time navigating marinas et al. Sacrificing a bit of tracking to give us the ability to pivot more quickly when we cock up would be a valid design choice.
A boat that has it sails balanced will track in a straight line, a little bit of skeg will assist it. The skeg area relative to the rudder is quite small and is easily over come by the rudder. With the rudder and prop wash a fin keel boat will turn in about its length.

And, yes learn to be a better sailor.