Slippery winches

[Cpt. Jon]

Hi all,

I just rebuilt our winches last week and today while sailing I noticed with two wraps around them they didn't grip the sheet like I feel like it should. It makes it really difficult under load to sheet in and cleat the sheets off. Is there something that I can/should put on old winches to get them to grip the sheet better? This contributed to my wife wanting some sailing gloves I think :bang:. So now I go from the winches that wanted to freewheel back under load until cleated off to winches that hold position but don't hold the sheets...

Suggestions always appreciated!

Jon

 

[Joe]

Well, first of all.... buy your wife some sailing gloves. period. Anything to maintain a positive attitude. Besides, sailing gloves are stylish and terribly sexy on women. Don't get the cheapos... get harken or ronstan ... leather, 3/4 fingerl with mesh on back. Don't even think about disagreeing with me on this point. I have four pairs of gloves on my boat and I always give a pair to the gals.... it makes them want to participate and they really like wearing them.

Regarding the sheets slipping on the winch drum.... of course, you know to keep tension on the sheet, but put at least three wraps on the drum. Two is not enough... Now that I think of it that will undoubtedly solve your problem. The more wraps the better the grip.

There are two things you can do to make winching and sheet handling easier. The first is to use an open cam cleat (no fairlead) that is positioned at the proper height, angle and location. Its position should allow the trimmer to drop the sheet right into the cleat's jaws in a natural motion and simply lift it up when easing or casting off. Remember, no fairlead on the cam cleat...

The second thing you can do is to invest in a new set of spun polyester sheets. Samson Yacht Braid is awesome. http://apsltd.com/c-1503-polyesterdoublebraids.aspx It is "fuzzy" and feels great in the hand and, best of all for you, it will grip the winch better.

So... three plus wraps, proper cleat in a proper position and a fuzzy sheet. That will make your wife happy.

 

[Ron20324]

Obviously they are not self-tailing. I wouldn't even begin to think that two wraps would hold any line from slipping. Certainly 3, maybe 4 if needed.

 

[Cpt. Jon]

With three wraps on the winches the line seems to foul easily. I'm sure we'll be out tomorrow, so I'll try that again, but I know I've put three wraps a number of times and the line would foul, I guess it could be bad technique, these winches are a lot different than our self tailing winches on our old boat.

As far as the open cam cleat, you are suggesting adding those to or replacing the jam cleats (I think they are what they are called , basically like this image and I understand and I understand this isn't the cam cleat I would want because of the lead)

Some new sheets may be in order, we're making due with these ones at least for this season I think, they are in good condition and we need to prioritize the money... they are really low on the list at this point.

As far as the gloves, if it makes her want to sail more... oh wait, she reads these... nevermind... we'll see

 

[Joe]

I've put three wraps a number of times and the line would foul, I guess it could be bad technique

John...... bad technique it is. You have been used to self tailing winches and that is the harbinger of bad sheeting technique. You must keep the tail above horizontal to keep the sheet from overlapping. A non ST winch doesn't have the jaws and stripper on top like the self tailing kind do so it is much easier to add additional wraps, or take them off. When you tack the boat the old sheet can easily be cast off by just pulling it straight up off the drum. Additional wraps can be easily put on by holding your hand on top of the winch as you slip them on.

If you have trouble keeping the tail of the sheet above horizontal, you might consider examining the winch mount to see if it can be canted to give you a better angle. The are commercial winch pads available or you can make your own out of hardwood. You can also put the cleat on a riser... that's how my boat is set up, the winches actually tilt outboard.... the higher position helps you keep the sheet closer to horizontal. Note three wraps on the winch in third picture.

 

[Don12364]

How Winches Operate

Jon,
Winches are designed to accept the incoming line from slightly below. About 10° is often recommended.
The incoming sheet first contacts the drum on the conical portion at the base of the winch and then it forces itself on to the parallel part of the barrel. In doing so it pushes all the other turns on the barrel upwards. Some winches have their 'parallel' part slightly tapered to facilitate this. If you watch carefully whilst winching you see this happening.
To get friction, each turn needs to have some tension applied by the turn above. Think of each turn needing, say, a fifth of the incoming rope tension in order to prevent it slipping back. So to hold 500 lbs of load with only one turn a 100 lb pull on the tail would be needed - but 20 lbs with two turns and only 4 lbs with three turns. Each turn divides the tailing pull needed by five. Individual ropes and winch barrels, dry or wet, will yield differing results and the above figures are only to illustrate the way it works.
Most winches need between three and four turns to make them secure.

So you can expect to need at least three turns and they should not bind, cross over, or overlap if the direction of approach (lead angle) of the incoming rope is correct.

From your original posting it seems that your lead angle might be wrong. If so you may need to fit, or move, the existing turning blocks on the deck to get it right. Most boats have them. Do you?

 

[alexco38]

Assuming you know all about three wraps around the winch etc. did you happen to have reversed the pawl when rebuilding the winch. Oh yes it can be installed backwards. The winch will slip if the pawls are not installed in the correct way. Don't ask me how I knew ;-)

 

[bffatcat]

winching problems for JON

Jon

This is about technique. 1: before you tack take ONE WRAP of your sheet on the weather side winch. 2 When you go about do not release the old tack sheet until the sail breaks on the new tack. 3. once the sail breaks, release and take up all the slack on the new tack. remember 1 wrap only to take up the slack. The line cannot jamb up with one wrap.
4. once the sheet tightens up on the new tack take 2 additional wraps, quickly than put your handle in and sheet the jib in. If you follow this regimen you should not have any problems

One other thing: the sheet blocks must be below the level of the winch. If they are not
this will cause jammed wraps, And you`re going to have to raise them up.

 

[Benny]

Were they working fine before you rebuild them? Maybe you got some grease on the drum and now on the lines. A good soap degreaser may help. By the way the entry angle is critical and at least three wraps should be the minimum to attain proper performance and distribute loads on the winch drum. I unfurtunately ruined a very expensive winch years ago by just using two wraps for heavy loads.

 

[Cpt. Jon]

Thanks all, we had a nice sail yesterday. Went to the New Point comfort lighthouse to show my daughter and back. There were a lot of sailboats out, but I guess many were in a hurry because they were either motoring or motorsailing. If any of you were heading to Yorktown we probably spotted you somewhere, but I didn't recognize any boat names that we were close enough to see... and no Java flag.

Anyway, I noticed a few things while out. 3 Wraps definately made a huge difference. The sheets that I am using are the ones that came with the boat which are in good shape, but they seem pretty big (in diameter), I haven't measured them and will when I get a chance, but being on the large size, the weight may contribute to them fouling in addition to many of the technique issues brought up.

No, the pawl wasn't reversed they are working as they are supposed to mechanically. Benny, I was thinking that perhaps some grease got on the winches, I will have to try some degreaser on them.

I'll check the angle, it does seem a little steeper than what I was used to on the other boat, but it might just be fine. I appreciate all the technique suggestions made and will keep working on it. Yesterday was much better already, so thanks!