Now it would be a mistake to totally take everything from the NY Post article (link below http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/36963.htm . ....I know none of us were there and we probably will never know what "really" happened. Big question is. Why didn't the Motoryacht see the sailboat on the Radar? The Motorboat DEFINITELY had radar (if it was working that is) and most sailboats I know would show up on my regular ole RL70CRC radar with or without a Radar reflector . There is plenty of metal on even a fiberglass sailboat to see it on radar, especially with an aluminum mast and engine (did he have a carbon fiber mast). I can see little wooden rowing dories on my radar, even see big seagulls , though these are not usually a really strong signal. But anyone decent with reading radar can see almost all sailboats, unless designed by the US Aiforce like the Stealth Bomber Who knows who had a proper lookout. If that fog was that bad it might have been useless, but with your engine off you probably could hear a motorboat, but not know what direction it was. One fact that I feel is probably going to be found to be useless is whether the sailboat was sounding it horn once every 2 minutes or not. With an enclosed helm and engine running and 120 seconds between a blast, its very unlikely the big Motoryacht heard anything. Wonder if the Motoryacht was sounding its fog horn?... This is just me, but ... With or w/o Radar, I'd be on the VHF (Ch 13 and 16) often updating who could hear me where my location was. Too many questions. Who had radar? What was speeds and directions? Did sailboat have engine on? Did boats have Fog horns going (as per Colregs 35....which I think is almost inadequate)? Did either boat see the other one before accident ? (Maybe alter course last minute?)...etc, etc. As in most of these instances, fault will be found on both sides, its just at what percentages? But I have to say it again....The big Motoryacth had radar. Why didn't it use it and give the sailboat lots of leeway???
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Rick Webb
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Paul Akers
Fortunately...
...the motoryacht stayed on scene and rescued the capt & crew of 2. He died after the rescue after CPR failed. This happened during the night as the boat was being delivered to Block Island for B.I. Race Week.
...the motoryacht stayed on scene and rescued the capt & crew of 2. He died after the rescue after CPR failed. This happened during the night as the boat was being delivered to Block Island for B.I. Race Week.
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Bill Sheehy
Last Sept.
We were just leaving Kingston last Sept. when we heard on the radio that a power boat had ran over a small fishing boat in the fog. One person on the fishing boat was hurt pretty bad. Someone one the fishing boat said that the other boat had been doing about 20 mph which was way to fast. Never did hear what happened.
We were just leaving Kingston last Sept. when we heard on the radio that a power boat had ran over a small fishing boat in the fog. One person on the fishing boat was hurt pretty bad. Someone one the fishing boat said that the other boat had been doing about 20 mph which was way to fast. Never did hear what happened.
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Vic
I don't know why but there seems to be times ...
when radar just doesn't seem to be the real answer ... large waves where you are hobby horseing ... overtaking situations where the profile of the boat ahead is at its smallest ... mis setting the sensitivity ... heavy rain ... sometimes it is scary what you don't see on the radar ... and other times everything is clear as crystal even in a thick fog. Vic "Seven"
when radar just doesn't seem to be the real answer ... large waves where you are hobby horseing ... overtaking situations where the profile of the boat ahead is at its smallest ... mis setting the sensitivity ... heavy rain ... sometimes it is scary what you don't see on the radar ... and other times everything is clear as crystal even in a thick fog. Vic "Seven"
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Clyde
A tragic loss of a great sailor.
Joe Schulz-Heik was a well respected sailor. A J-105 racing yacht doesn't have a large radar return. I don't know what kind of radar system the Mariner III was using. A lot of the bigger ships uses a computer coupled to the radar to automatically sound a collision alarm, I don't know if the Mariner III was using such a system. One of the problems with the computer collision avoidance system is that it must track a moving object to determine if a collision is possible. An intermitted signal from a poor return like the J-105 may not register as a moving target. On the Mariner III, with a crew of six, they may have used the computer collision avoidance system instead of having a crew member standing watch over the radar screen. A 60' eastern rigged trawler and a 770' tanker collided in the Gulf of Maine on Sept. 5, 1996. The trawler suffered heavy damage in the incident. The tanker's computer collision avoidance system did not register the trawler as a moving target on a collision course with the tanker. An adequate radar reflector can be a lifesaver in poor visibility. US Coast Guard Safety Alert, Wood and Fiberglass Vessels make Poor Radar Targets http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/moa/docs/sa0497.htm J-105 Web site about the tragic accident. http://www.j105.org/fleet6/content/Joe.html Fair Winds, Clyde
Joe Schulz-Heik was a well respected sailor. A J-105 racing yacht doesn't have a large radar return. I don't know what kind of radar system the Mariner III was using. A lot of the bigger ships uses a computer coupled to the radar to automatically sound a collision alarm, I don't know if the Mariner III was using such a system. One of the problems with the computer collision avoidance system is that it must track a moving object to determine if a collision is possible. An intermitted signal from a poor return like the J-105 may not register as a moving target. On the Mariner III, with a crew of six, they may have used the computer collision avoidance system instead of having a crew member standing watch over the radar screen. A 60' eastern rigged trawler and a 770' tanker collided in the Gulf of Maine on Sept. 5, 1996. The trawler suffered heavy damage in the incident. The tanker's computer collision avoidance system did not register the trawler as a moving target on a collision course with the tanker. An adequate radar reflector can be a lifesaver in poor visibility. US Coast Guard Safety Alert, Wood and Fiberglass Vessels make Poor Radar Targets http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-m/moa/docs/sa0497.htm J-105 Web site about the tragic accident. http://www.j105.org/fleet6/content/Joe.html Fair Winds, Clyde
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Debra B
sailboats don't show up well on radar
If you think they can see you, forget it. Even with some radar reflectors you can be hard to see. I read one article where the Navy wasn't sure if there was a sailboat in the area - they called on VHF to confirm. The US navy and thier radar can't see you, the stuff from Westmarine won't see you either. Radar is not a replacement for watchkeeping
If you think they can see you, forget it. Even with some radar reflectors you can be hard to see. I read one article where the Navy wasn't sure if there was a sailboat in the area - they called on VHF to confirm. The US navy and thier radar can't see you, the stuff from Westmarine won't see you either. Radar is not a replacement for watchkeeping
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Tom S
What use is keeping your eyes out in Fog?
Debra, I'm not sure if you've ever been caught out in Pea-Soup fog like we can get up in the North East. But seeing anything with your eyes is basically useless. With no radar, you need all of your other senses to help you out. And I know that sometimes people can't pick up targets on their radar, especially if they are on the open ocean & have it tuned for long distances. Plus a navy boat has high power units that can scan many, many more miles than a simple commercial Raytheon Unit. But with that high power they "de-tune" the signal so as not to get many reflections from smaller objects up close. Plus the deck and bridge of a big ship is many times "over the head" on a 50 foot mast and wont pick up the sail boat thats close and "under their radar". Also in very high waves a boat can be "lost" between the crests and not get picked up by radar. That was not the case in Long Island Sound last friday. Do you own and use a raytheon radar ? I have one and I can tell you for sure that I can pick up a sailboat . I gaurantee you I can see a J-105 on my raytheon 2kw radar, with or without a radar reflector on. I do it all the time up here on Long Island Sound, I can even pick up small fishing boats. Come up to Connecticut and I will show you sometime. I can't "see" a fraction of the distance a navy ship can see, but at my speeds, if I can see a few miles I'm happy. The bottom line is you need to know how to read a radar. It's "fuzzy logic" and its not like it has a big sign on the screen that says "SailBoat Here !" You need to "play" with a radar and get to know it and tune it properly to get and read the correct reflections. This is best done in clear conditions to help you see what you think you see on the screen. Not only that you must *really* pay attention when its on. Just because its on doesn't mean anything unless someone is looking at it and closely monitoring it every second to see if some "anomoly" starts to show up on the screen. It could be a boat or it could be nothing but a crest of a wave. You never know unless it starts to stay on the screen for some time and then you need to take caution and investigate or avoid. Yes their are all sorts of very neat features on todays radar that can track objects and alarm (i.e MARPA, etc, etc). But the system has to be used properly and its no replacement for someone actively looking at the screen. My guess (and at this time its only conjecture) is that no one on the big Motoryacht was paying *really* close attention to the radar screen at 2am and just had some alarming features on that are not fool proof.
Debra, I'm not sure if you've ever been caught out in Pea-Soup fog like we can get up in the North East. But seeing anything with your eyes is basically useless. With no radar, you need all of your other senses to help you out. And I know that sometimes people can't pick up targets on their radar, especially if they are on the open ocean & have it tuned for long distances. Plus a navy boat has high power units that can scan many, many more miles than a simple commercial Raytheon Unit. But with that high power they "de-tune" the signal so as not to get many reflections from smaller objects up close. Plus the deck and bridge of a big ship is many times "over the head" on a 50 foot mast and wont pick up the sail boat thats close and "under their radar". Also in very high waves a boat can be "lost" between the crests and not get picked up by radar. That was not the case in Long Island Sound last friday. Do you own and use a raytheon radar ? I have one and I can tell you for sure that I can pick up a sailboat . I gaurantee you I can see a J-105 on my raytheon 2kw radar, with or without a radar reflector on. I do it all the time up here on Long Island Sound, I can even pick up small fishing boats. Come up to Connecticut and I will show you sometime. I can't "see" a fraction of the distance a navy ship can see, but at my speeds, if I can see a few miles I'm happy. The bottom line is you need to know how to read a radar. It's "fuzzy logic" and its not like it has a big sign on the screen that says "SailBoat Here !" You need to "play" with a radar and get to know it and tune it properly to get and read the correct reflections. This is best done in clear conditions to help you see what you think you see on the screen. Not only that you must *really* pay attention when its on. Just because its on doesn't mean anything unless someone is looking at it and closely monitoring it every second to see if some "anomoly" starts to show up on the screen. It could be a boat or it could be nothing but a crest of a wave. You never know unless it starts to stay on the screen for some time and then you need to take caution and investigate or avoid. Yes their are all sorts of very neat features on todays radar that can track objects and alarm (i.e MARPA, etc, etc). But the system has to be used properly and its no replacement for someone actively looking at the screen. My guess (and at this time its only conjecture) is that no one on the big Motoryacht was paying *really* close attention to the radar screen at 2am and just had some alarming features on that are not fool proof.
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Tom Monroe
speed?
Other than once on Lake Michigan, have no experience with dense fog. So a question, please. Don't know the "rules" regarding the operation of a large motor vessel in fog conditions. I'd like to know from someone whether the vessel in question can just buzz along, or whether it should reduce speed to steerageway. Seems like the inference in the article and these posts is that the motor vessel was operating as usual and relying totally on radar. If that's the case, then I guess I'd also need radar to remain even remotely safe in such conditions. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
Other than once on Lake Michigan, have no experience with dense fog. So a question, please. Don't know the "rules" regarding the operation of a large motor vessel in fog conditions. I'd like to know from someone whether the vessel in question can just buzz along, or whether it should reduce speed to steerageway. Seems like the inference in the article and these posts is that the motor vessel was operating as usual and relying totally on radar. If that's the case, then I guess I'd also need radar to remain even remotely safe in such conditions. Tom Monroe Carlyle Lake
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Tom S
Tom M. Nobody knows the real details yet
Its all conjecture at this point. Many may think this is all premature, and I know this is just conjecture, but it's interesting to read what little facts we do know and take some educated guess's. Maybe try and think of what we might do different. Its good for us and our seamanship skills......but we should not judge anyone just yet.
Its all conjecture at this point. Many may think this is all premature, and I know this is just conjecture, but it's interesting to read what little facts we do know and take some educated guess's. Maybe try and think of what we might do different. Its good for us and our seamanship skills......but we should not judge anyone just yet.
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Tim McCarty
Was caught in thick fog once...
and hopefully the last time (I'd rather be caught in gale force winds...). I tried to navigate to an area of limited use. I then sounded my horn... a 3 second blast every two minutes (for about two hours). Eventually navigated my way back to the marina, but it was not a comfortable situation...
and hopefully the last time (I'd rather be caught in gale force winds...). I tried to navigate to an area of limited use. I then sounded my horn... a 3 second blast every two minutes (for about two hours). Eventually navigated my way back to the marina, but it was not a comfortable situation...
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Vic
And of course there is no law that says ...
that you can't pick up the VHF, run low power on Channel 16 and simply ask: Anyone hear Me? This is the sailing vessel [whatever] at [GPS position] heading 180 degrees at 6kts. That is sort of what we can do on the "hailing" channel? No? Not to be solely relied on ... just one more way to fill in the "gaps" Vic "Seven"
that you can't pick up the VHF, run low power on Channel 16 and simply ask: Anyone hear Me? This is the sailing vessel [whatever] at [GPS position] heading 180 degrees at 6kts. That is sort of what we can do on the "hailing" channel? No? Not to be solely relied on ... just one more way to fill in the "gaps" Vic "Seven"
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Vic
to Tom S. How well does that unit work in a heavy
rain? At night I find rain way worse than fog. The run of the mill Furunos leave a lot to be desired. Vic "Seven"
rain? At night I find rain way worse than fog. The run of the mill Furunos leave a lot to be desired. Vic "Seven"
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Tom S
Vic,
thats exactly what I said on my original post, that I'd be on the VHF (Ch 13 and 16) often updating who could hear me where my location was. BTW CH 13 is monitored by commercial vessels often. As far as Rain Vs. Fog, I haven't been out in "really" heavy rain where I needed it, but it does have a Rain Filter that works pretty well. It was pretty cool, I could see the rain coming, and then the the screen went all snowy, then I turned on the rain filter, re-tuned it a bit and I could "see" again. It has other filter too like Interference rejection, standby/transmit modes, pulse selection,Tune, Rain, FTC, and Sea controls, with selection of manual or automatic control of gain, sea clutter and tune (Auto GST™)....etc, etc. Raytheon was one of the highest rated Radar units by Practical Sailor when they did test. And the color unit is phenominal and "blips" come up on the screen with a bright yellow color that makes it much easier to see. Plus if the object is moving you can have a "trace" fade of where the object was which helps tell you if its a fast moving object. Its all in how you use it. Practice is clear daylight and it makes it much easier when it is nasty out.
thats exactly what I said on my original post, that I'd be on the VHF (Ch 13 and 16) often updating who could hear me where my location was. BTW CH 13 is monitored by commercial vessels often. As far as Rain Vs. Fog, I haven't been out in "really" heavy rain where I needed it, but it does have a Rain Filter that works pretty well. It was pretty cool, I could see the rain coming, and then the the screen went all snowy, then I turned on the rain filter, re-tuned it a bit and I could "see" again. It has other filter too like Interference rejection, standby/transmit modes, pulse selection,Tune, Rain, FTC, and Sea controls, with selection of manual or automatic control of gain, sea clutter and tune (Auto GST™)....etc, etc. Raytheon was one of the highest rated Radar units by Practical Sailor when they did test. And the color unit is phenominal and "blips" come up on the screen with a bright yellow color that makes it much easier to see. Plus if the object is moving you can have a "trace" fade of where the object was which helps tell you if its a fast moving object. Its all in how you use it. Practice is clear daylight and it makes it much easier when it is nasty out.
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Vic
Sounds like Raytheon has a great product ...
now all I have to do is get a couple of boats I sail alot to update from furumo and older Raytheons. I think most of the radars I use average about 6 years old ... and none "do color" Vic Seven
now all I have to do is get a couple of boats I sail alot to update from furumo and older Raytheons. I think most of the radars I use average about 6 years old ... and none "do color" Vic Seven
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Chuck Wayne
raymarine color radar
Vic, Ditto for us! the color radar makes targets really stand out well, and the rain filter also works very well-during a 6 hour pea soup run from maine to mass we could clearly see approaching rain squalls, as well as othe boats and bouys
Vic, Ditto for us! the color radar makes targets really stand out well, and the rain filter also works very well-during a 6 hour pea soup run from maine to mass we could clearly see approaching rain squalls, as well as othe boats and bouys
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