Single Handing vs apparent wind and trim

[patagoniadave]

This is a question for the experienced singlehanders. Do you find it more efficient to steer to the wind as long as it is in the general correct direction, or to set autopilot and and adjust trim?

A little background so that the question might make more sense. I have been sailing since March of this year. Mostly single handed. I am self taught through books, and a couple of anchor neighbors who took me out on my first trips. The boat is a 34' Irwin, and I try to do an up and back every weekend to a remote cove about 17 miles away. I am in the Sea of Cortez which I am told has super short wavelengths comparatively to other places.

I read an article about apparent wind recently, and despite having read 4 how to sail books, and countless other articles and posts, this was the first time a light bulb went off in my head with a beginning of understanding. The understanding was directly correlated to a weird sail I had the weekend before. The wind seemed to be gusting, then dropping, then moving, then literally spinning me in a circle as I chased it. I realize that some of this was because of apparent wind angles shifting as my speed changed from waves or steering errors.

I often find myself steering on a close haul trying to catch a sweet spot, rather than going in a specific direction. My question above is trying to figure out if this is normal for singlehanding, or a product of my newness, and if I need to start making mental adjustments before developing bad habits.

Thanks for any feedback.

 

[dlochner]

Sailing in a shifty wind is a challenge and there are different factors that affect how you sail in those conditions.

If you are simply out day sailing and there are no obstacles, just follow the wind and enjoy the sail.

If you are trying to reach a destination and it is a long way off, set the AP to follow the wind and then monitor it. If the wind is oscillating evenly, then the course will average out to the direction you want to sail. If the wind is shifting towards one direction you will need to monitor and adjust the apparent wind angle on the AP to stay more or less on course.

If it is a short trip or one with obstacles to deal with, then set the heading and adjust the sails to stay on course.

Especially if the wind pipes up steering to the apparent wind angle will be easier on the AP and a more comfortable sail as the boat won't be rounding up and fighting the wind shift.

 

[patagoniadave]

Sailing in a shifty wind is a challenge and there are different factors that affect how you sail in those conditions.

If you are simply out day sailing and there are no obstacles, just follow the wind and enjoy the sail.

If you are trying to reach a destination and it is a long way off, set the AP to follow the wind and then monitor it. If the wind is oscillating evenly, then the course will average out to the direction you want to sail. If the wind is shifting towards one direction you will need to monitor and adjust the apparent wind angle on the AP to stay more or less on course.

If it is a short trip or one with obstacles to deal with, then set the heading and adjust the sails to stay on course.

Especially if the wind pipes up steering to the apparent wind angle will be easier on the AP and a more comfortable sail as the boat won't be rounding up and fighting the wind shift.

thanks for the reply, and please pardon the ignorance, I am trying to learn so much in a short period of time: You say set the AP to follow the wind, I am assuming you mean the weathervane option on the AP, vs the compass setting. I know that my autopilot has that option in the programing, because I read the manual, but I don't think I have the proper equipment for it? I suppose I could go google this right now, but what tells the AP how to steer to the wind? I need a sensor of some sort?

 

[kappykaplan]

If you are simply out day sailing and there are no obstacles, just follow the wind and enjoy the sail.

I do this all the time, setting my autopilot to wind vane mode.

 

[patagoniadave]

I do this all the time, setting my autopilot to wind vane mode.

:-( I do not think I have the wind angle sensor on my boat.

 

[kappykaplan]

-( I do not think I have the wind angle sensor on my boat.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

If you don't have a wind instrument, then you don't have the capability to set the autopilot to the wind vane function. Also, the wind instrument has to be integrated with the autopilot for the wind vane function to work. You need to give us more details about the autopilot and the instrumentation that you have on board. The wind vane function ("steer-to-wind") is a very nice feature to have if you are set up for it. As Dave indicates, you will have much more efficient sailing in a general direction for a long period of time without constantly monitoring sail trim. But you need to evaluate your course routinely.

If you set your course to compass, then obviously you need to monitor your sail trim. I think that is the good way to go because I generally monitor the sail trim regularly anyways.

Regardless, I don't think it makes very much difference and is more a matter of personal preference. I couldn't tell you what was going on with your freakish experience. We don't have nearly enough information. I do know that with my Raymarine wheel pilot, on a deeper reach or a run, the autopilot will have trouble with the steering and eventually disengage with some loud "beeps". Perhaps in your case, you were trying to steer to wind without having any wind input from a wind instrument but I'm not even sure if you can set it "steer-to-wind" without having the input. You will have to let us know on your system.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

BTW, waves from behind, especially short period waves, make it more difficult for the autopilot to steer. Wheel pilots, opposed to below-decks autopilots particularly have a more difficult time with this.

 

[patagoniadave]

If you don't have a wind instrument, then you don't have the capability to set the autopilot to the wind vane function. Also, the wind instrument has to be integrated with the autopilot for the wind vane function to work. You need to give us more details about the autopilot and the instrumentation that you have on board. The wind vane function ("steer-to-wind") is a very nice feature to have if you are set up for it. As Dave indicates, you will have much more efficient sailing in a general direction for a long period of time without constantly monitoring sail trim. But you need to evaluate your course routinely.

If you set your course to compass, then obviously you need to monitor your sail trim. I think that is the good way to go because I generally monitor the sail trim regularly anyways.

Regardless, I don't think it makes very much difference and is more a matter of personal preference. I couldn't tell you what was going on with your freakish experience. We don't have nearly enough information. I do know that with my Raymarine wheel pilot, on a deeper reach or a run, the autopilot will have trouble with the steering and eventually disengage with some loud "beeps". Perhaps in your case, you were trying to steer to wind without having any wind input from a wind instrument but I'm not even sure if you can set it "steer-to-wind" without having the input. You will have to let us know on your system.

I have Raymarine equipment including the autopilot. I have already emailed them asking about integrating a wind instrument (and replacing the burned out autopilot screen). What you are all describing as "steer to wind", is what I do manually. I use the windvayne thing on the top of the mast, telltales when I can see them, wind on the face, and sometimes just feel the boat. Generally this works well. For whatever reason last weekend, I could not catch and hold the wind consistently. It was overcast, and I think there was a storm a long way off. Waves were choppy. Still an amazing day of sailing. It gave me perspective to understand the article about apparent wind that I never had before, which made me start thinking about the question I asked above. It also tore the stitching on the sacrificial jib edge, so now I am pulling that down instead of sailing this weekend, but it is all part of the education.

 

[dlochner]

I have Raymarine equipment including the autopilot. I have already emailed them asking about integrating a wind instrument (and replacing the burned out autopilot screen). What you are all describing as "steer to wind", is what I do manually. I use the windvayne thing on the top of the mast, telltales when I can see them, wind on the face, and sometimes just feel the boat. Generally this works well. For whatever reason last weekend, I could not catch and hold the wind consistently. It was overcast, and I think there was a storm a long way off. Waves were choppy. Still an amazing day of sailing. It gave me perspective to understand the article about apparent wind that I never had before, which made me start thinking about the question I asked above. It also tore the stitching on the sacrificial jib edge, so now I am pulling that down instead of sailing this weekend, but it is all part of the education.

Some days you just can't get a break with the wind. When the wind gets light and shifty we tend to over steer which slows the boat down. The rudder is useless unless there is water flowing over it. Center the tiller and let the sails fill in what ever direction seems to work. Build up some speed before attempting to turn. Small gradual corrections work better than large quick corrections.

 

[patagoniadave]

Some days you just can't get a break with the wind. When the wind gets light and shifty we tend to over steer which slows the boat down. The rudder is useless unless there is water flowing over it. Center the tiller and let the sails fill in what ever direction seems to work. Build up some speed before attempting to turn. Small gradual corrections work better than large quick corrections.

This was a day that was going from me being super glad I had a reef in the mainsail, to sitting still, and all points in between, multiple times in a short period. I actually enjoyed the experience of it more than any other sail to date.

 

[Tally Ho]

I have Raymarine equipment including the autopilot. I have already emailed them asking about integrating a wind instrument (and replacing the burned out autopilot screen). What you are all describing as "steer to wind", is what I do manually. I use the windvayne thing on the top of the mast, telltales when I can see them, wind on the face, and sometimes just feel the boat. Generally this works well. For whatever reason last weekend, I could not catch and hold the wind consistently. It was overcast, and I think there was a storm a long way off. Waves were choppy. Still an amazing day of sailing. It gave me perspective to understand the article about apparent wind that I never had before, which made me start thinking about the question I asked above. It also tore the stitching on the sacrificial jib edge, so now I am pulling that down instead of sailing this weekend, but it is all part of the education.

A super simple way to see if your current set up can steer to wind angle is to press the Standby and Auto buttons at the same time. If the AP sees the wind info, it will say WIND at the top of the screen. If it doesn’t see the wind info, it will beep and say No Data.

If it doesn’t have wind data, then you have some work to do to set things up. We will need more info (type of AP, type of wind transducer at the top of the mast, etc.

I just set this up on my boat, because a PO purchased a TacTic wind transducer (wireless) to replace whatever used to be up there. But the TacTic wouldn’t talk to the AP (of my Garmin Chart plotter).

My solution was to get a T122 wireless interface (used - from a gentlemen here on SBO) and then tie the CP and AP to the wind data via NMEA 0183 through the T122 device. Sort of Rube Goldberg, but it worked and yesterday I sailed to Wind for the first time since I have owned Tally Ho! And I can see True and Apparent wind on my Garmin CP.



Greg

 

[patagoniadave]

A super simple way to see if your current set up can steer to wind angle is to press the Standby and Auto buttons at the same time. If the AP sees the wind info, it will say WIND at the top of the screen. If it doesn’t see the wind info, it will beep and say No Data.

If it doesn’t have wind data, then you have some work to do to set things up. We will need more info (type of AP, type of wind transducer at the top of the mast, etc.

I just set this up on my boat, because a PO purchased a TacTic wind transducer (wireless) to replace whatever used to be up there. But the TacTic wouldn’t talk to the AP (of my Garmin Chart plotter).

My solution was to get a T122 wireless interface (used - from a gentlemen here on SBO) and then tie the CP and AP to the wind data via NMEA 0183 through the T122 device. Sort of Rube Goldberg, but it worked and yesterday I sailed to Wind for the first time since I have owned Tally Ho! And I can see True and Apparent wind on my Garmin CP.

View attachment 207060 View attachment 207061

Greg

The equipment I have is Raymarine. I'm like 99 percent sure there is no wind data, but the screen on the autopilot is burned out, so hard to confirm. I am still able to use the compass autopilot, even though I cannot see the readout. I believe that there is nothing on top of the mast besides what I call a windvane. I have no windspeed readout, nor wind direction, and there is nothing in the boat "for sale specs" that makes me think otherwise. In some ways, I think this is good for my learning, I am feeling wind instead of looking at screens, but there have been days I wished I knew how fast the wind was blowing.

I have an email out to Raymarine about the screen and compatible wind equipment. I am going to have to pull the boat at some point to fix a throughhull, so will stack up yard projects.

 

[dlochner]

Going to play Karnac here, holding an envelop to my forehead, and the message says "We don't support that chart plotter any more. There are no spare parts. Buy a B&G system and you'll be happier."

Ok, so maybe not that last sentence.

 

[BarryL]

Hey,

Congratulations on working on your sailing skills. IMHO the best way to become a better sail is to sail - a lot, and to THINK about what you are doing, have done, and lessons learned. Back in the day when I was a newbie I would go for a sail, read about sailing, sail trim, steering, then sail again and read again.

The difference between true and apparent wind is something that is easy to understand, but harder to really understand on a boat, and almost impossible for non sailors to understand. Take a nice sailing day, 10 kts breeze (true) from due north, flat water. A delightful day to be out sailing. On a reasonably size boat, sailing upwind, close to the wind, say 45 degrees (TRUE) you will be feeling around 15 kts of apparent wind. The boat will be fully powered up, heeling 15 degrees, and sailing fast. "Wow" you think, "The breeze has really picked up." Now turn downwind to head back home. Don't tack, just ease sheets and turn down from 45 degrees (beating) to 150 degrees (running) . Now, with the wind behind you, sails eased all of the way out, the true wind is still 10 kts from due north, but the apparent wind will have dropped from 15 kts down to 6 or so kts and your boat speed from 6-7 down to 3-4. Now you think "Hey, who turned the wind off?" The answer is the wind hasn't changed, just your direction!

Back to your original question, I think you should do some of both. Set the sails and then steer to that wind angle for a bit. Set the sails so the telltails are flying and then drive to the telltails. Keep the sails drawing as you hunt for puffs, lulls, etc. Remember, up in a puff, down in a lull. As the driver, your ONLY job is to steer to the wind angle / tell tails. After 30 minutes of that turn on the autopilot. Switch from driver to trimmer. Don't sail dead upwind. Instead pick a course around 50 degrees off of the wind. Now keep the sails properly trimmed. If the wind shifts up then trim on. If the wind goes aft then ease out. Practice Practice Practice.

Next lessons: Understanding draft in sail. When How and Why to increase or decrease it. Understand the tools available for the mainsail and headsail that control the draft.

Barry

 

[patagoniadave]

Going to play Karnac here, holding an envelop to my forehead, and the message says "We don't support that chart plotter any more. There are no spare parts. Buy a B&G system and you'll be happier."

Ok, so maybe not that last sentence.

I am not going to do any major upgrades to the boat, until I am more certain it will be my long term rig. Originally I bought it to learn to sail on, and was going to upgrade after 3 years. Now I am wondering if I can make this one work, but that is a whole separate thread.

 

[patagoniadave]

Hey,

Congratulations on working on your sailing skills. IMHO the best way to become a better sail is to sail - a lot, and to THINK about what you are doing, have done, and lessons learned. Back in the day when I was a newbie I would go for a sail, read about sailing, sail trim, steering, then sail again and read again.

The difference between true and apparent wind is something that is easy to understand, but harder to really understand on a boat, and almost impossible for non sailors to understand. Take a nice sailing day, 10 kts breeze (true) from due north, flat water. A delightful day to be out sailing. On a reasonably size boat, sailing upwind, close to the wind, say 45 degrees (TRUE) you will be feeling around 15 kts of apparent wind. The boat will be fully powered up, heeling 15 degrees, and sailing fast. "Wow" you think, "The breeze has really picked up." Now turn downwind to head back home. Don't tack, just ease sheets and turn down from 45 degrees (beating) to 150 degrees (running) . Now, with the wind behind you, sails eased all of the way out, the true wind is still 10 kts from due north, but the apparent wind will have dropped from 15 kts down to 6 or so kts and your boat speed from 6-7 down to 3-4. Now you think "Hey, who turned the wind off?" The answer is the wind hasn't changed, just your direction!

Back to your original question, I think you should do some of both. Set the sails and then steer to that wind angle for a bit. Set the sails so the telltails are flying and then drive to the telltails. Keep the sails drawing as you hunt for puffs, lulls, etc. Remember, up in a puff, down in a lull. As the driver, your ONLY job is to steer to the wind angle / tell tails. After 30 minutes of that turn on the autopilot. Switch from driver to trimmer. Don't sail dead upwind. Instead pick a course around 50 degrees off of the wind. Now keep the sails properly trimmed. If the wind shifts up then trim on. If the wind goes aft then ease out. Practice Practice Practice.

Next lessons: Understanding draft in sail. When How and Why to increase or decrease it. Understand the tools available for the mainsail and headsail that control the draft.

Barry

As to your first paragraph, that is exactly what I am doing, and really just loving the experience of it.

As to the second, I understood all of that right off the bat. The epiphany I had recently was about how apparent wind will change just due to my speed (and or the speed of true wind). There is an app from the ASA that I have, it has a screen where you can drag apparent wind around. "Wheee" I thought, but why do I care? The part where the vector angle changed for high wind did not register. Now, that I have been out sailing, it makes more sense. When I am humming along balanced and powered, and then a wave knocks me off course and I have to go find that balance again. Some of that is the apparent wind vector angle changing because my speed changed, or even because my mast tipped on a steep swell. Fascinating to me.

As to your third, that is what my sailing life is about right now. I can only sail on the weekends. There is a cove up the coast, I sail up on Friday, back on Sunday. Same trip, but never the same experience, and I often make up things to practice on the way. Last weekend was multiple tacks, vs one big long one to get upwind, just to see what I preferred. Probably not the best weekend for that experiment.

I am taking a break from studying sailing information to studying maintenance issues, but will circle back around to fine tuning a sail.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Will Gilmore]

I am taking a break from studying sailing information to studying maintenance issues, but will circle back around to fine tuning a sail.

That is SOP for sailing.

Keep in mind, you are sailing, as you pointed out, in the Sea of Cortez. I haven't sailed the Sea of Cortez, but I suspect it won't have the strong steady winds of larger bodies of water. Your understanding of apparent wind is dead on. However, what effects AW is more broad than simply speeding up or slowing down due to wind strength and tack. The lighter the true wind is, the more you are affected by small things like a wave or a swell. Stronger winds move apparent wind closer to true wind, but think about how your sail swings through the air when wind is light and a wave changes the velocity vector of your masthead in relationship with true wind. Your bow lifts, the mast moves backwards, your bow drops, your mast swings ahead. For the time you are surfing down a wave, your change in apparent wind will shift it forward, then at the trough and up the other side, that wind will drop and move abeam, unless you're running with the wind. These short shifts of AW under light and unsteady gusts can get very confusing. Add to that, you said there was a distant storm. Waves and inconsistent gusts from varying directions generated or effected by the storm conditions will only compound the issue.

You will either react to every change, to keep your efficiency up, or you will learn to let it ride and see how it averages out, because you get tired of yanking on the sheet or changing the traveler constantly. When you find yourself chasing that perfect tack and it alludes you, sail to the compass for a pace. Let the steady course allow you to better understand the conditions you're sailing in.

Honestly, it sounds like you are learning at lightning speed compared to others. Just keep at it and even if you don't realize it, you will come to understand.

-Will

 

[jon hansen]

understanding the wind and it's relationship to a sailboat, buy this book. it explains the answers to your questions

just saying, jon

 

[JBP-PA]

A wind sensor for a raymarine autopilot is nice, but it is not the cat's pajamas, especially in shifty conditions. Mine checks the apparent wind only every 20 seconds or so and adjusts the compass course accordingly, but this is too slow in shifty conditions if you are close hauled.
Hand steering is more efficient. When I get tired of steering I'll fall off a bit and then let the autopilot steer, even if it's not the most efficient.