Signs of Tired Tiller
- Thread starter SFKjeld
- Start date
when initially reversing, you have to be careful about the amount of engine power and keep a hold on the tiller. What is happening in reverse, you do not have enough flow of water over the rudder surface initially for steerage. This is common and you will learn
Our '93 23.5 has her original tiller (we are second owner). Much of her time afloat has been on salt water. Of all her components, the tiller is one of the few pieces I don't worry about. It seems to be quite stout.
SFK, are you suggesting yours is wood?
I did a quick search to the site store, but there is no link to an OEM tiller. Instead, there's a link to this beautiful tiller:
http://shop.hunterowners.com/cu/detail-tmpl.php?a=2&pid=53919&model=23.5
I thought this link was to an IdaSailor tiller, but I'm not sure now. Lots of folks swear by IdaSailor products. Here's a link to their gorgeous tiller on their site.
http://www.ruddercraft.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=84
Many 23.5 owners have voiced complaints about the OEM rudder and switched to IdaSailor models. You can do a forum search on that. Here's a link to a total replacement system:
http://www.ruddercraft.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=270
It's a pretty penny. I have thought about this upgrade, but there have been other priorities to date. However, having taken a good chunk out of my tiller on a rock this season, maybe I need to revisit it... Though I'll probably just break out the epoxy and glass cloth!
SFK, are you suggesting yours is wood?
I did a quick search to the site store, but there is no link to an OEM tiller. Instead, there's a link to this beautiful tiller:
http://shop.hunterowners.com/cu/detail-tmpl.php?a=2&pid=53919&model=23.5
I thought this link was to an IdaSailor tiller, but I'm not sure now. Lots of folks swear by IdaSailor products. Here's a link to their gorgeous tiller on their site.
http://www.ruddercraft.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=84
Many 23.5 owners have voiced complaints about the OEM rudder and switched to IdaSailor models. You can do a forum search on that. Here's a link to a total replacement system:
http://www.ruddercraft.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=41&products_id=270
It's a pretty penny. I have thought about this upgrade, but there have been other priorities to date. However, having taken a good chunk out of my tiller on a rock this season, maybe I need to revisit it... Though I'll probably just break out the epoxy and glass cloth!
I will also agree with some earlier suggestions and add that whenever I feel the helm getting sluggish, I know it's because the rudder isn't all the way down. That can easily happen in heavier seas if you haven't cranked down the big wing nut enough.
In that regard and in reference to my earlier post, at one point this season I got lazy and cleated the rudder uphaul/downhaul line in the down position. Big tactical error. We were new to our cruising grounds this season (Mystic CT/Fishers Island Sound/Eastern LI Sound), and I ventured too far out of the channel at a particularly low ebb tide and hit bottom. The swing keel kicked back & I quickly pulled on the uphaul, and there was no apparent damage (we'll take a closer look when we pull her next week).
The rudder, on the other hand, being cleated down, took several hard knocks. It was a nightmare. The rudder trying to kick back tightened the line so hard on the cleat, I couldn't release it and had to go overboard to remove the bottom pintel to get enough slack to loosen the line. Power boaters in their little fishing boats kept coming near and asking if I needed a tow. Of course, I refused all help... I was so embarassed...
I cracked the gel coat down to the core and did a temporary repair with quick setting epoxy. For the rest of the season, I pulled up the rudder when in the slip to try and keep it dry. Hopefully the core hasn't gotten too soft to be able make a proper repair. So maybe an IdaSailor system is in my future!
In that regard and in reference to my earlier post, at one point this season I got lazy and cleated the rudder uphaul/downhaul line in the down position. Big tactical error. We were new to our cruising grounds this season (Mystic CT/Fishers Island Sound/Eastern LI Sound), and I ventured too far out of the channel at a particularly low ebb tide and hit bottom. The swing keel kicked back & I quickly pulled on the uphaul, and there was no apparent damage (we'll take a closer look when we pull her next week).
The rudder, on the other hand, being cleated down, took several hard knocks. It was a nightmare. The rudder trying to kick back tightened the line so hard on the cleat, I couldn't release it and had to go overboard to remove the bottom pintel to get enough slack to loosen the line. Power boaters in their little fishing boats kept coming near and asking if I needed a tow. Of course, I refused all help... I was so embarassed...
I cracked the gel coat down to the core and did a temporary repair with quick setting epoxy. For the rest of the season, I pulled up the rudder when in the slip to try and keep it dry. Hopefully the core hasn't gotten too soft to be able make a proper repair. So maybe an IdaSailor system is in my future!
When I bought my used 23, the rudder had several gouges and cracks down to the foam. Over the winter, I left it in the basement and just fixed these with epoxy with filler. I have not had any issues and the rudder floats well (sometimes too well when I use the downhaul line), so I don't think I'd worry too much about yours.
I also, by the way, dragged the rudder on our lake over an unseen/unmarked rock, moving quite slowly under engine. It did kick up, because the 23 rudder has a cam cleat (does the 23.5 have a horn cleat?), and the force pulled the line through the jaws, shredding the outer layer of line. I simply replaced the line, and eventually will fix the small gouge at the rudder bottom.
I also, by the way, dragged the rudder on our lake over an unseen/unmarked rock, moving quite slowly under engine. It did kick up, because the 23 rudder has a cam cleat (does the 23.5 have a horn cleat?), and the force pulled the line through the jaws, shredding the outer layer of line. I simply replaced the line, and eventually will fix the small gouge at the rudder bottom.
How about an auto-releasing cleat to hold down your rudder?
http://www.clamcleat.com/cleats/cleat_details.asp?theid2=78
http://www.clamcleat.com/cleats/cleat_details.asp?theid2=78
SFKjeld,
If it wasn't clear from one of the previous posts... If the rudder is all the way down to full travel, it should be balanced (or close). If it is back, there will be excessive force on the rudder and tiller - probably a good way to break one or the other. I have not read that our older 23.5 or 26 were especially vulnerable, but I have read of the newer H260 rudder being vulnerable and have a friend whose H260 rudder did snap underway. That's not exactly what you asked originally, but maybe helpful for someone.
If it wasn't clear from one of the previous posts... If the rudder is all the way down to full travel, it should be balanced (or close). If it is back, there will be excessive force on the rudder and tiller - probably a good way to break one or the other. I have not read that our older 23.5 or 26 were especially vulnerable, but I have read of the newer H260 rudder being vulnerable and have a friend whose H260 rudder did snap underway. That's not exactly what you asked originally, but maybe helpful for someone.
Jeff Clown,
Even the 26 had a share of what you described with the rudder also happen but was replaced immediately by the manufacturer. It occurred when there was a new employee who did not follow instructions. I know this pretty well as it happened to me on the 260 at an in-water show demonstrating the boat. I simply cut the head or that portion off and drilled thru the rest and had a fixed rudder for the rest of the day. ;Had to remove it though when putting the boat back onto the trailer. New employee who was terminated for refusing to follow instructions.
Even the 26 had a share of what you described with the rudder also happen but was replaced immediately by the manufacturer. It occurred when there was a new employee who did not follow instructions. I know this pretty well as it happened to me on the 260 at an in-water show demonstrating the boat. I simply cut the head or that portion off and drilled thru the rest and had a fixed rudder for the rest of the day. ;Had to remove it though when putting the boat back onto the trailer. New employee who was terminated for refusing to follow instructions.
The steering system of all boats is very hard working, and subject to wear and fatigue over time. And 15+ years is definitely 'over time'. Depending on the particular boat, the potential failure points can be the rudder blade itself, the pintle/bearing assembly, or the tiller.
I suggesting listening to other owners (and CDC) on what breaks first, and check your entire system on a regular basis. Have a backup plan for what might regularly break. Because if it DOES break, I can promise it will happen at a time when the system is really loaded up, like it will be in heavy weather. It never will fail on a 4 knot day. On our boat we replaced the tiller, because that is the most common failure point of the First 260, and have a spare (short) tiller on board. Your boat might be different. But taking a hard look at it and having a plan might come in handy some day.
I suggesting listening to other owners (and CDC) on what breaks first, and check your entire system on a regular basis. Have a backup plan for what might regularly break. Because if it DOES break, I can promise it will happen at a time when the system is really loaded up, like it will be in heavy weather. It never will fail on a 4 knot day. On our boat we replaced the tiller, because that is the most common failure point of the First 260, and have a spare (short) tiller on board. Your boat might be different. But taking a hard look at it and having a plan might come in handy some day.
If there's rot in a tiller, it'll probably happen at the point of attachment. I haven't seen your tiller, but most are vulnerable where they have holes drilled through the end for their attachment to a metal fitting. Water gets past the metal and into the holes, and the rot begins.
I snapped the tiller on my first boat, a 16ft. Grumman Flyer. I've always inspected the tillers on any of my subsequent tiller steered boats by simply removing the tiller and inspecting the inside of the holes with some sort of pick. Obviously, it should all be solid.
I replaced the tiller on my first keelboat, a 26ft Grampian. Inspection had revealed the end of the tiller to be iffy. I was too lazy to laminate a new tiller for it, so I bought a piece of ash, about 2" thick, 8" wide, and 5ft. long. I traced my desired tiller on it, cut it out with a jigsaw, rounded the corners with a router, and did the inletting for the metal hardware with a chisel. I drilled the necessary holes, and then coated the holes and the entire tiller with penetrating epoxy followed by several coats of varnish.
I snapped the tiller on my first boat, a 16ft. Grumman Flyer. I've always inspected the tillers on any of my subsequent tiller steered boats by simply removing the tiller and inspecting the inside of the holes with some sort of pick. Obviously, it should all be solid.
I replaced the tiller on my first keelboat, a 26ft Grampian. Inspection had revealed the end of the tiller to be iffy. I was too lazy to laminate a new tiller for it, so I bought a piece of ash, about 2" thick, 8" wide, and 5ft. long. I traced my desired tiller on it, cut it out with a jigsaw, rounded the corners with a router, and did the inletting for the metal hardware with a chisel. I drilled the necessary holes, and then coated the holes and the entire tiller with penetrating epoxy followed by several coats of varnish.
Well, in continuing on this subject, I found my tiller had a large crack along the seem of the two different woods, at the end where the holes are for the stainless bracket attaches to connect the rudder . Obviously the lamination bond had given way. Great winter project. I had the tiller in my workshop at home and wanted to put a fresh coat of varnish on it. During inspection I found the crack. Currently its in clamps while the glue dries.
Hi SFK, As usual Crazy Dave has a good point about sail handling, No matter what the boat, if you are getting excessive pressure on the rudder then you need to adjust something. Normally this pressure is caused by weather helm and can be eased immediately by letting the main out a bit in the puffs. Sometimes, especially in a race, you may be pushing it and will round up, this indeed puts major pressure on the rudder and happened to me sailing a Shark and snapped the rudder clean in two. So you are right to always check and make sure your tiller and rudder are in good shape.
Now for the rest of the story now told.
When backing up with motor you do not have good control due to the thrust of motor at high rpm in reverse. You need to lower the rpm when reversing and when the flow of rudder is such that you have control then lower the rpm even further.
When backing up with motor you do not have good control due to the thrust of motor at high rpm in reverse. You need to lower the rpm when reversing and when the flow of rudder is such that you have control then lower the rpm even further.