Signs of Tired Tiller

[SFKjeld]

Being the neurotic sailor that I am, I have always wondered whether my tiller assembly is sound. I have been surprised more than once at the effort required to straighten the rudder at times. Especially when pulled too far to either side while a moving at a good speed. Seems an awful lot of pressure on that assembly. I would hate to have it snap on me. Does that happen? Are there signs of a tired tiller? Am sure this is the original, which puts it at 20years old.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

If there is a lot of pressure while holding a tiller in place, there is more to the picture without a better explanation for example what is the wind speed, how much sail, angle of heeling and so forth. The first thing that would come to mind maybe too much sail in high wind and/or heeled way to far over. Remember the amount of the main and 110 jib in a sense equals that of a standard main and possibly a 140 genoa on that boat and thru experience, heeling way over is not necessary. Suggest less sail and/or letting the sails out to relieve the pressure off the tiller.

 

[centerline]

I have been surprised more than once at the effort required to straighten the rudder at times. Especially when pulled too far to either side while a moving at a good speed.
Seems an awful lot of pressure on that assembly.

"Especially when pulled too far to either side while a moving at a good speed"

when moving at a good speed and you pull the tiller/rudder hard over, there should be a bit of resistance in pulling it "hard over", and the boat should immediately list away from the turn as the rudder swings the boat.

but the tiller should return to center without effort, unless someone has tried to balance the rudder without knowing what they were doing... OR, if its a swing-away rudder, it is likely that it is not in the proper position to create the balance that is required for a happy helm..

a properly balanced rudder, while moving in reverse will lay over, and it will be difficult to return to center, but not while moving forward.

 

[justsomeguy]

snip-... OR, if its a swing-away rudder, it is likely that it is not in the proper position to create the balance that is required for a happy helm..

a properly balanced rudder, while moving in reverse will lay over, and it will be difficult to return to center, but not while moving forward.

Although a lot could be said about the problems of a foil moving backwards, this was my first thought regarding the OP's issue.

 

[Kermit]

I'm not sure anyone has answered his question. I read it that he is asking if there are signs that the tiller is tired and about to snap.

 

[justsomeguy]

I'm not sure anyone has answered his question. I read it that he is asking if there are signs that the tiller is tired and about to snap.

Take a core sample?

It might behoove SFKjeld to at least have a plan in place iffin' it does happen to snap off.

 

[centerline]

I'm not sure anyone has answered his question. I read it that he is asking if there are signs that the tiller is tired and about to snap.

Well the answer to that cant be answered by anyone who cant physically examine it... and as for the problem that he explained he is experiancing, we can still only give him ideas of what to look for.

With what he said, I doubt the rudder is worn out and about to snap, But I can say with some degree of certainty that if the balance in the rudder does not get corrected, the rudder, gudgeons or tiller connection will fail sooner or later.... even if it is perfectly sound at this time.

 

[Mike in Cape Cod]

Your Avitar shows that you own a 23.6 Hunter. There are two things that can make it hard to steer this boat. One is sailing with the rudder partially raised from the full down position. This puts tremendous strain on the rudder and it's related hardware and also the person sailing the boat. The second cause of hard steering is sailing upwind with the centerboard partially, or fully up. This causes an imbalance and puts strain on the rudder also. As Crazy Dave Condon replied, excessive sail in a high wind will also cause the boat to heel and put pressure on the rudder.Reducing sail by reefing can cure this condition.

 

[Chris14830]

In answer to your actual question, I regularly pump the rudder quickly back and forth while at the dock, about 30 degrees or so, and watch the pintles and gudgeons (pins and hole thingies that make the "rudder hinge") especially where it attaches to the transom, and especially the lower one. You might need someone else to pump. Look for even minute movement.

I grease the pintle and the top of the gudgeon where the weight of the rudder rides every spring with fresh grease.And of course inspect the mounting bolts and sealing compound inside and out on the transom.

I also have a "tiller tamer" holding the rudder amidships while at dock with small springs at each end of the rope to give a bit of shock relief to the rudder from big waves. The worse thing for the mounting hardware is a big wave when at dock that bangs the rudder hard over.
-Chris

 

[SFKjeld]

In answer to your actual question, I regularly pump the rudder quickly back and forth while at the dock, about 30 degrees or so, and watch the pintles and gugeons (pins and hole thingies that make the "rudder hinge") especially where it attaches to the transom, and especially the lower one. You might need someone else to pump. Look for even minute movement.

I grease the pintle and the top of the gudgeon where the weight of the rudder rides every spring with fresh grease.And of course inspect the mounting bolts and sealing compound inside and out on the transom.

I also have a "tiller tamer" holding the rudder amidships while at dock with small springs at each end of the rope to give a bit of shock relief to the rudder from big waves. The worse thing for the mounting hardware is a big wave when at dock with the rudder almost hard over.
-Chris

Thanks. Yeah, I wasn't looking for someone to tell me if me tiller was about to snap. Just looking for signs to look out for. While a small sample, the few 23.5's I've seen seem to have aluminum tillers. Was that an option? Is aluminum an upgrade?

I really appreciate the maintenance tips too! Many thanks.

 

[twodzusfittings]

Unless I'm mistaken, the question is all about the actual tiller. My guess is "someone" might have felt a "crack" while pulling, pushing or pushing down on the tiller. Possibly, if I'm correct in my assumption, the tiller is old and although not showing signs of stress outwardly, the wood is starting to dry out and shrinking in the stainless steel bracket it inserts into and the bolt holes are slightly enlarged, causing slight slop or movement.
It might be ready for a replacement, have one ready on board, pre drilled for an underway removal and replacement for when it actually finally goes.
Of course all of this is in my opinion (and experience) only, should not be taken as the whole truth and nothing but the truth, has no real merit and can be considered of no value! (always wanted to put that disclaimer up!:cussing::dance::naughty:)

 

[SFKjeld]

Unless I'm mistaken, the question is all about the actual tiller. My guess is "someone" might have felt a "crack" while pulling, pushing or pushing down on the tiller. Possibly, if I'm correct in my assumption, the tiller is old and although not showing signs of stress outwardly, the wood is starting to dry out and shrinking in the stainless steel bracket it inserts into and the bolt holes are slightly enlarged, causing slight slop or movement.
It might be ready for a replacement, have one ready on board, pre drilled for an underway removal and replacement for when it actually finally goes.
Of course all of this is in my opinion (and experience) only, should not be taken as the whole truth and nothing but the truth, has no real merit and can be considered of no value! (always wanted to put that disclaimer up!:cussing::dance::naughty:)

Not exactly. I don't think there was a crack sound involved, but itmdoesn't feel as solid as the only other tiller I've used. From my 15' Potter. And my sense that there are much greater forces on this tiller than on my dinghy. But to your point, that's exactly what a neurotic sailer like me ought to do. Replace it. In fact, maybe I'll just mount it and use the current one as backup.

 

[centerline]

that's exactly what a neurotic sailer like me ought to do. Replace it. In fact, maybe I'll just mount it and use the current one as backup.

yep... maybe if i was rich thats exactly what i would do if it were me.
I suppose when one has enough money there is little sense in trying to find the problem with what we have when there is a new one setting on a shelf somewhere just waiting for someone to show up with a pocket full of dollars to trade for it...

but im not rich, so Im stuck looking for the problem and try to understand why or how it happened and then make the necessary repairs... and learn something about how it all works in the process.

 

[SFKjeld]

yep... maybe if i was rich thats exactly what i would do if it were me.
I suppose when one has enough money there is little sense in trying to find the problem with what we have when there is a new one setting on a shelf somewhere just waiting for someone to show up with a pocket full of dollars to trade for it...

but im not rich, so Im stuck looking for the problem and try to understand why or how it happened and then make the necessary repairs... and learn something about how it all works in the process.

Not rich... Neurotic.

 

[centerline]

Not rich... Neurotic.

Oh sorry... I can understand and relate to the neurotic attitude much easier than I can the rich attitude...

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

To respond on the aluminum tiller, that was the original and when worn out, some opted to replace it with a wood tiller. Gents when I look at a question, I look at it from being an investigator in my younger years. SFJkeld is a new sailor to this boat and he is seeking our help as a novice on the 23.5. Boy do I recall my early days of sailing asking all kinds of questions when there was no forum and many would not help or be bothered. I am glad at the responses but Mike in Cape Cod nailed all points on this question. The only thing to add is either to let the sails out or reduce them or a combination of both. Mike is right about the rudder if not fully deployed down will cause the same issue. It is not a matter of a tiller in distress but a matter of handling and what to look for which is what I read into this looking from the perspective as an investigator.

 

[patn44]

I've found a wheelbarrow handle (usually oak or hickory) makes a very nice tiller and is very cheap ($12) compared to a laminated (weak and expensive $97) one. I don't like laminated as the but end gets worn and water gets into the wood causing the laminate to delaminate. have had several break at the plates.

 

[scotmcpherson]

To be honest I may be missing the mark here, BUT although the question doesn't exactly ask this, he's talking about the tiller being tough to bring back to center after being pushed hard over while moving forward.

This indicates one of two problems

1) the sails are out of balance

2) there is an alignment problem with the pintles (I.e. Something is bent)

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Mike and I hit it on the nailhead. I know this boat all too well as there is a story how it came to inception plus the fact I sold 25% of this line of boats and know a thing or two about it. Expereince is the best teacher when you know a specific boat. Thank you again Mike in Cape Cod.

 

[SFKjeld]

Your Avitar shows that you own a 23.6 Hunter. There are two things that can make it hard to steer this boat. One is sailing with the rudder partially raised from the full down position. This puts tremendous strain on the rudder and it's related hardware and also the person sailing the boat. The second cause of hard steering is sailing upwind with the centerboard partially, or fully up. This causes an imbalance and puts strain on the rudder also. As Crazy Dave Condon replied, excessive sail in a high wind will also cause the boat to heel and put pressure on the rudder.Reducing sail by reefing can cure this condition.

Actually, I didn't think the heaviness in the tiller was abnormal for the boat. My focus was more about the tiller withstanding that load without snapping. Neither of the conditions above happen on my boat. There have just been a few times that I struggled centering the tiller, only after sharp turns Under a pretty good breeze. The first time I put the boat in the water and backed out of the dock. When I went to center the boat while still in reverse, the tiller came around with a vengeance. Nearly pinned me.