Significant weatherhelm on a beneteau 343

[Davefromoregon]

I was sailing today on the river in 10-20kt wind. Both main and headsail were reefed while sailing close hauled. A gust of wind would come up and the boat would turn hard into the wind.

The boat is new to me and this is not something I have seen on any boat. User error or is this just part of this boat.

That said it was a glorious day sailing.

 

[Captn TJ]

Generally on all of our Beneteaus if we were reefing we would drop the traveller anywhere from 6" to all the way. This traveller provides the biggest change to weather helm and overall boat control.

 

[DougM]

I have a 323, and it too is susceptible to significant weather helm. Part of it is due to mast rake that is not totally adjustable because there is no turnbuckle in the forestay. To control the amount of helm encountered in breezy conditions, the traveller is crucial. It's not uncommon to drop it almost all the way. With the main fully up, outhaul tension also helps to flatten the main. All that being said, the boat likes to be sailed with minimal heel, so we always reef sooner rather than later. My wife is never bashful about letting me know when she thinks we should reef usually when heel exceeds 15 degrees or sooner. The boat will still drive very well even with a double reef in the main.

Learning to watch the wind patterns on the water helps one to anticipate the puffs and head up somewhat. Heeling over causes the rudder to lose its grip.

Another issue to consider is the age of the sails. If they get baggy, that can also contribute to the inability to trim as well as one would like.

 

[Captn TJ]

I assume out haul was used as well to flatten out the sail

 

[Davefromoregon]

We did use the vang to flatten the main.

 

[Compromise]

My Benny has the same problem. My mainsail overpowers my job. All I do is ease my main sheet until the weather helm eases. It will actually sail faster this way and reduces heel. Not sure if this will work for you but give it a try. Balancing sails is an art. You should be able to steer the boat with the sails (it's a lot of work though).

 

[bob_pattison]

Reefing/weatherhelm

Dave,
In those conditions...the gust heels the boat more and the hull shape then compounds the weatherhelm...Our tuning guide, attached here recommends reefing as you did (both sails initially) but if you still have too much helm or as in your case have puffy conditions, then you need to reef the main deeper. This will move the center of effort forward and reduce you weather helm. In 20plus knots, you'll have all the power you need, even with the more aggressively reefed main.

Bob Pattison

I was sailing today on the river in 10-20kt wind. Both main and headsail were reefed while sailing close hauled. A gust of wind would come up and the boat would turn hard into the wind.

The boat is new to me and this is not something I have seen on any boat. User error or is this just part of this boat.

That said it was a glorious day sailing.

 

[Davefromoregon]

Dave,
In those conditions...the gust heels the boat more and the hull shape then compounds the weatherhelm...Our tuning guide, attached here recommends reefing as you did (both sails initially) but if you still have too much helm or as in your case have puffy conditions, then you need to reef the main deeper. This will move the center of effort forward and reduce you weather helm. In 20plus knots, you'll have all the power you need, even with the more aggressively reefed main.

Bob Pattison

Thanks. Several good points that I'll put into practice.

 

[antero373]

Hi,

Some experiences based on Beneteau 373:
- Play with the traveller as mentioned (and keep it down) unless close-hauling
- Reef slightly also genoa. If you have 140% genoa fully deployed, the closed leech comes behind the mast level and acts like main sail incresing heel. 110-120% keeps up good speed
- Consider folding/feathering prop. Gives more acceleration and therefore less heel in puffs compared to fixed blade. Also the grip of the rudder is totally different, you can really push the boat to wind. It is not a racer but gives nice feeling when the puff puts you to top-speed with some sporty heeling...

Br,
Ale

 

[Grouperhound]

I'm new too and struggle. I value every comment added here. Much appreciated. I am a bit confused though.

I have an Oceanis 45 with in mast furler, large main, and a small genoa(106%?). I reef early and often since I'm still a bit timid, but it usually rounds up quickly before I get into too much trouble. I don't have a traveller per say but do have a vang and of course the boom sheet. I thought easing up on the vang would dump air at the top of the sail from the twist, thereby de-powering the main . So I'm confused with flattening the sail. I have to confess I don't ease out the sheet as early as I should though. I'm usually by myself and stay too glued to the helm.

I have so much to learn. I agree it's like an art. Every once in awhile when things seem right and I'm healed over and pushing 9kts it all seems worth it. I just wish it happened more often.

 

[Compromise]

I'm new too and struggle. I value every comment added here. Much appreciated. I am a bit confused though. I have an Oceanis 45 with in mast furler, large main, and a small genoa(106%?). I reef early and often since I'm still a bit timid, but it usually rounds up quickly before I get into too much trouble. I don't have a traveller per say but do have a vang and of course the boom sheet. I thought easing up on the vang would dump air at the top of the sail from the twist, thereby de-powering the main . So I'm confused with flattening the sail. I have to confess I don't ease out the sheet as early as I should though. I'm usually by myself and stay too glued to the helm. I have so much to learn. I agree it's like an art. Every once in awhile when things seem right and I'm healed over and pushing 9kts it all seems worth it. I just wish it happened more often.

I agree. It's a wonderful feeling. You are right about dumping wind from your main. On the new Oceanis models, the mast is back further than standard sailboats. This allows the main to have its center of force further back. This in turn pushes the boat to windward by overpowering the jib which is only slightly larger than the main. I ease the main and keep it flat to keep my speed up. My commodore is into racing so I have to be able to go fast. Unless I have guests, it is rare for me to reef in less than 20 knots. I will balance my sails first. The boat will handle it. It's all in what you are used to. In Clear Lake most people reef in 15. In Corpus the wind is rarely less than 20 so you get used to it. In South Africa, my friends were sailing Optimus in 40 knots. Go slow, play with the sails. Note how the telltales move when you ease or haul in sheets. Use your autopilot if you sail single handed. Above all, have fun and stay inside your comfort level. I have been sailing 5 decades and I have never went sailing when I did not learn something new. 2 things I know about sailing. 1: I can teach someone to sail in two hours but it takes a lifetime to master. 2: you get on a power boat to get from point A to point B. When you get on a sailboat, you are already there.

 

[Gunni]

Grouperhound and others; FYSA, Mr. Bob Pattison is the design lead at Neil Pryde Sails - our Beneteau OEM sailmaker. He knows how your boat behaves under sail. Is this a great forum or what! Thanks for stopping by Bob.

 

[Grouperhound]

Neil Pryde Sails

Grouperhound and others; FYSA, Mr. Bob Pattison is the design lead at Neil Pryde Sails - our Beneteau OEM sailmaker. He knows how your boat behaves under sail. Is this a great forum or what! Thanks for stopping by Bob.

Awesome! That is very fortunate for us. I did read the sailing guide for the 343. I am now searching their site for others and wondering which would most closely apply to an OC45. My boat goes hard today, boo hoo. My introduction to sailboat ownership has only been 3 short months. It's been a whirlwind of learning, I can't wait for spring. I may now invest in some adjustable genoa lead cars for next year. I now realize that I have been driving around in a cornfield on this one.

Maybe I could persuade the folks up in Connecticut to drive down to the Chesapeake next spring and borrow my boat for an OC45 Sailing Guide. I do have a three cabin and I'm willing to sleep in the truck.

 

[bob_pattison]

B45 guide and others

Invite accepted!
pm with contact info and we can set it up.
Welcome to sailing BTW...one of the great things about our sport is that every time I go sailing there is a good chance I can learn something new. And that keeps it interesting and fun.

Here's an unofficial guide to the tuning guides I've written thus far:
311
323
331
343
361
373
393
411
423
461
473
473-2 (modified)
473-3
b34
b37
b40
b43
b46
b50

bp

Awesome! That is very fortunate for us. I did read the sailing guide for the 343. I am now searching their site for others and wondering which would most closely apply to an OC45. My boat goes hard today, boo hoo. My introduction to sailboat ownership has only been 3 short months. It's been a whirlwind of learning, I can't wait for spring. I may now invest in some adjustable genoa lead cars for next year. I now realize that I have been driving around in a cornfield on this one.

Maybe I could persuade the folks up in Connecticut to drive down to the Chesapeake next spring and borrow my boat for an OC45 Sailing Guide. I do have a three cabin and I'm willing to sleep in the truck.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

There's a few things that can be done to make a boat sail more comfortably in heavy air. Some of it is gear and some of it is owner operator. First of all, in very heavy winds you want to flatten out your sails. That means a lot of backstay adjusting, a lot of vang tension (and I mean a lot), increased halyard tension (but not so it has a luff curl), lots of outhaul adjustment and also, like someone mentioned, the traveler should be let off to leeward more. You can vang sheet when a gust hits by dumping the vang and then pull it in again when the gust passes, which sometimes is a lot quicker and easier than dumping the mainsheet and muscling it back in (maybe not depending on your set up). Also, the lead on the headsail can go aft some so that the top of the headsail breaks first, which helps depower the rig up high (spills wind in the gusts). Then, since the Oregon sailor said he was sailing close-hauled, there is a technique called "feathering" where you stick the bow into the wind closer than you normally would do so that the inside telltales are pointing straight up and the outside are pointing straight back (rather than trying to achieve both pointing straight back in most conditions). If the helms person achieves the knack of feathering the boat properly and sticking with the wind shifts, the crew won't have to dump things as often and you will be surprised at how well the boat will sail to weather in extreme conditions.

 

[joyof10]

I also have a 343 and have had the same experience, especially the first few times I sailed it after purchase. I agree with the above advice about traveler, vang, outhaul, furling, etc. One of the most important things I have found so far for brief gusts, is weight distribution. Move the crew, and you, to the high side. This light boat is very responsive to weight distribution.
Where I sail (San Diego), there are a couple of places coming back in from the ocean to the bay next to Point Loma where canyons create a venturi effect and multiply the wind strength significantly. I have been rounded up and actually had to do 360s because of this effect. Even with a crew of two, if everyone is up, it makes a difference.
In my case, I know that the high wind area is temporary (less than two minutes), so it doesn't necessarily make sense to make all of the previously mentioned sail changes for that brief period, especially if short handed. Weight matters.

 

[Joe2954]

I sail a 343 on the Columbia also. If wind reads 10+ at the houseor marina next door, I furl the main to just forward of the top vertical batten. I set the genoa lead with 3 holes showing and furl to second stripe.
If the wind kicks up from there I furl the genoa in another turn or two and move the leads forward a hole per turn.
Along Sauvie Island the wind will swirl and swing to windward 40 degrees in puffs. Just keep everything stowed and hang on.
I put cam cleats on back of cabin top for traveler leads which allows you to dump the traveler in puffs if necessary.
With the sails balanced per above the rudder is pretty much centered.
A little slower when the wind calms but easieron the nerves.
When it gets too crazy I furl and head home. Not a fanatic.
Joe

 

[Davefromoregon]

What is the most wind people are comfortable with their mid 30' boats? I have been out a couple times on my 343 in 20+iKTS and it is a bit sporty even with deeply reefed sails.

Also, how close to a run do you get with the swept back spreaders?

 

[Davefromoregon]

Since the original post, I have been out a couple times I followed the recommendations above especially the use of the traveler along with reefing made all the difference.
The wind was about 10-20 knots.

 

[kkamrad]

Dave,
In those conditions...the gust heels the boat more and the hull shape then compounds the weatherhelm...Our tuning guide, attached here recommends reefing as you did (both sails initially) but if you still have too much helm or as in your case have puffy conditions, then you need to reef the main deeper. This will move the center of effort forward and reduce you weather helm. In 20plus knots, you'll have all the power you need, even with the more aggressively reefed main.

Bob Pattison

Bob,
Thanks for the tuning guide. My 343 has a 120 genoa. Since your guide is based on a 140 genoa, what adjustments would you recommend to your suggested lead positions?

Kurt Kamrad