sideband radio antenna for backstayless B
- Thread starter Al - s/v Persephone
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sideband radio antenna for backstayless B&R rig
The downwind limitations of my H36's B&R rig are something I tolerate in order to get the light-air performance of a big-roach mainsail. Obviously, no backstay means no wire strung where a backstay would otherwise be, or my 25% roach will run into it. Since the standard answer to "what kind of antenna do I use for my sideband radio" is an insulated backstay, and since I don't want to mount an ugly 23-foot powerboat whip on my stern pulpit, I wonder what other Hunter owners are using for MF/HF antennas. Is anyone driving an ungrounded main shroud so as to create a sort of folded monopole with a grounded mast? Is anyone driving the ungrounded mast with ungrounded shrouds and stays creating a sort of capacitive top-hat-loaded vertical? If so, does RF from the compression post cause your in-cabin electronics to go crazy when the sideband radio is keyed? Any other configurations that people are using? (Please - no speculation on sideband antenna concepts you aren't actually using.) Thanks for any inputs.
The downwind limitations of my H36's B&R rig are something I tolerate in order to get the light-air performance of a big-roach mainsail. Obviously, no backstay means no wire strung where a backstay would otherwise be, or my 25% roach will run into it. Since the standard answer to "what kind of antenna do I use for my sideband radio" is an insulated backstay, and since I don't want to mount an ugly 23-foot powerboat whip on my stern pulpit, I wonder what other Hunter owners are using for MF/HF antennas. Is anyone driving an ungrounded main shroud so as to create a sort of folded monopole with a grounded mast? Is anyone driving the ungrounded mast with ungrounded shrouds and stays creating a sort of capacitive top-hat-loaded vertical? If so, does RF from the compression post cause your in-cabin electronics to go crazy when the sideband radio is keyed? Any other configurations that people are using? (Please - no speculation on sideband antenna concepts you aren't actually using.) Thanks for any inputs.
Antenna options
Al Hope this doesn't turn into a debate over the pros/cons of an ungrounded mast and lightning. I've compared ungrounded shroud vs. balanced random length windom off of the same tuner - windom won every time with similar geometry but requires a dedicated halyard. I think the ralatively short length of the shroud hinders performance - reactance and high Q even with my 63 ft mast length. Either works so it's largely a question of relative performance. What you describe is essentially a tower mounted radial guy like lots of folks use but the length isn't there. Don Illusion
Al Hope this doesn't turn into a debate over the pros/cons of an ungrounded mast and lightning. I've compared ungrounded shroud vs. balanced random length windom off of the same tuner - windom won every time with similar geometry but requires a dedicated halyard. I think the ralatively short length of the shroud hinders performance - reactance and high Q even with my 63 ft mast length. Either works so it's largely a question of relative performance. What you describe is essentially a tower mounted radial guy like lots of folks use but the length isn't there. Don Illusion
Antenna options
Al Hope this doesn't turn into a debate over the pros/cons of an ungrounded mast and lightning. I've compared ungrounded shroud vs. balanced random length windom off of the same tuner - windom won every time with similar geometry but requires a dedicated halyard. I think the ralatively short length of the shroud hinders performance - reactance and high Q even with my 63 ft mast length. Either works so it's largely a question of relative performance. What you describe is essentially a tower mounted radial guy like lots of folks use but the length isn't there. Don Illusion
Al Hope this doesn't turn into a debate over the pros/cons of an ungrounded mast and lightning. I've compared ungrounded shroud vs. balanced random length windom off of the same tuner - windom won every time with similar geometry but requires a dedicated halyard. I think the ralatively short length of the shroud hinders performance - reactance and high Q even with my 63 ft mast length. Either works so it's largely a question of relative performance. What you describe is essentially a tower mounted radial guy like lots of folks use but the length isn't there. Don Illusion
Same as Al.
I made an inverted 'V' for less than $50. from the AES catalog. But I have only tested it in the backyard. It is on the boat as a sometimes thing. I have no need for a permanent antenna. I can run it up on the spinnaker halyard. It is tuned for 20 meters so each leg is only around sixteen feet. Thus it doesn't have to go up very far. The parts: Two end insulators: $4.95 One Hi-Q center insulator: $6.99 50 feet of RG8X: $20. #14 antenna wire: $15.
I made an inverted 'V' for less than $50. from the AES catalog. But I have only tested it in the backyard. It is on the boat as a sometimes thing. I have no need for a permanent antenna. I can run it up on the spinnaker halyard. It is tuned for 20 meters so each leg is only around sixteen feet. Thus it doesn't have to go up very far. The parts: Two end insulators: $4.95 One Hi-Q center insulator: $6.99 50 feet of RG8X: $20. #14 antenna wire: $15.
Same as Al.
I made an inverted 'V' for less than $50. from the AES catalog. But I have only tested it in the backyard. It is on the boat as a sometimes thing. I have no need for a permanent antenna. I can run it up on the spinnaker halyard. It is tuned for 20 meters so each leg is only around sixteen feet. Thus it doesn't have to go up very far. The parts: Two end insulators: $4.95 One Hi-Q center insulator: $6.99 50 feet of RG8X: $20. #14 antenna wire: $15.
I made an inverted 'V' for less than $50. from the AES catalog. But I have only tested it in the backyard. It is on the boat as a sometimes thing. I have no need for a permanent antenna. I can run it up on the spinnaker halyard. It is tuned for 20 meters so each leg is only around sixteen feet. Thus it doesn't have to go up very far. The parts: Two end insulators: $4.95 One Hi-Q center insulator: $6.99 50 feet of RG8X: $20. #14 antenna wire: $15.
Ed, question.
Are you saying it's OK to use shielded coax from the 'finals' to the tuned antenna? Henk said only unshielded wire should be used because an automatic tuner will 'see' the coax and think it's part of the antenna. I probably have the answer in my downloaded SGC book, but haven't read it yet. Don't bother with a 'technical' reply. I know nothing.
Are you saying it's OK to use shielded coax from the 'finals' to the tuned antenna? Henk said only unshielded wire should be used because an automatic tuner will 'see' the coax and think it's part of the antenna. I probably have the answer in my downloaded SGC book, but haven't read it yet. Don't bother with a 'technical' reply. I know nothing.
Ed, question.
Are you saying it's OK to use shielded coax from the 'finals' to the tuned antenna? Henk said only unshielded wire should be used because an automatic tuner will 'see' the coax and think it's part of the antenna. I probably have the answer in my downloaded SGC book, but haven't read it yet. Don't bother with a 'technical' reply. I know nothing.
Are you saying it's OK to use shielded coax from the 'finals' to the tuned antenna? Henk said only unshielded wire should be used because an automatic tuner will 'see' the coax and think it's part of the antenna. I probably have the answer in my downloaded SGC book, but haven't read it yet. Don't bother with a 'technical' reply. I know nothing.
Fred, it is not only OK
it is essential that you run the coax all the way to the center of the two elements which is the highest point in an inverted vee and it is then that your radio will "see" the correct impedance that it needs for efficient transfer of power into the antenna. If you do not do this, the antenna is no longer an inverted vee. It is a "spaghetti special" and that is what will happen to your signal. You will be speaking English and someone listening will think you are Italian speaking French with an unusual accent. Using coax also will reduce or prevent feedback of the rf into your other electronics aboard ie: autopilot, nav gear, stereo, computer, etc. The rigging - shrouds, etc will carry the rf energy back into your boat not only wasting it but wreaking havoc with your other systems. Using coax will reduce or eliminate that problem. You can light a florescent bulb by holding it next to a driven antenna element when transmitting. The electronics aboard (especially inverters and chargers) will likewise interfere with your reception unless you take steps to reduce that source. Putting the antenna as far away as you can from that source and feeding it with coax is a good solution for that problem. For a more advanced education, read about TOROIDS or TOROIDAL FILTERS.
it is essential that you run the coax all the way to the center of the two elements which is the highest point in an inverted vee and it is then that your radio will "see" the correct impedance that it needs for efficient transfer of power into the antenna. If you do not do this, the antenna is no longer an inverted vee. It is a "spaghetti special" and that is what will happen to your signal. You will be speaking English and someone listening will think you are Italian speaking French with an unusual accent. Using coax also will reduce or prevent feedback of the rf into your other electronics aboard ie: autopilot, nav gear, stereo, computer, etc. The rigging - shrouds, etc will carry the rf energy back into your boat not only wasting it but wreaking havoc with your other systems. Using coax will reduce or eliminate that problem. You can light a florescent bulb by holding it next to a driven antenna element when transmitting. The electronics aboard (especially inverters and chargers) will likewise interfere with your reception unless you take steps to reduce that source. Putting the antenna as far away as you can from that source and feeding it with coax is a good solution for that problem. For a more advanced education, read about TOROIDS or TOROIDAL FILTERS.
Fred, it is not only OK
it is essential that you run the coax all the way to the center of the two elements which is the highest point in an inverted vee and it is then that your radio will "see" the correct impedance that it needs for efficient transfer of power into the antenna. If you do not do this, the antenna is no longer an inverted vee. It is a "spaghetti special" and that is what will happen to your signal. You will be speaking English and someone listening will think you are Italian speaking French with an unusual accent. Using coax also will reduce or prevent feedback of the rf into your other electronics aboard ie: autopilot, nav gear, stereo, computer, etc. The rigging - shrouds, etc will carry the rf energy back into your boat not only wasting it but wreaking havoc with your other systems. Using coax will reduce or eliminate that problem. You can light a florescent bulb by holding it next to a driven antenna element when transmitting. The electronics aboard (especially inverters and chargers) will likewise interfere with your reception unless you take steps to reduce that source. Putting the antenna as far away as you can from that source and feeding it with coax is a good solution for that problem. For a more advanced education, read about TOROIDS or TOROIDAL FILTERS.
it is essential that you run the coax all the way to the center of the two elements which is the highest point in an inverted vee and it is then that your radio will "see" the correct impedance that it needs for efficient transfer of power into the antenna. If you do not do this, the antenna is no longer an inverted vee. It is a "spaghetti special" and that is what will happen to your signal. You will be speaking English and someone listening will think you are Italian speaking French with an unusual accent. Using coax also will reduce or prevent feedback of the rf into your other electronics aboard ie: autopilot, nav gear, stereo, computer, etc. The rigging - shrouds, etc will carry the rf energy back into your boat not only wasting it but wreaking havoc with your other systems. Using coax will reduce or eliminate that problem. You can light a florescent bulb by holding it next to a driven antenna element when transmitting. The electronics aboard (especially inverters and chargers) will likewise interfere with your reception unless you take steps to reduce that source. Putting the antenna as far away as you can from that source and feeding it with coax is a good solution for that problem. For a more advanced education, read about TOROIDS or TOROIDAL FILTERS.
Thanks Patrick, got it.
I plan to use my old insulated backstay. It's still in good shape. Does your advice still apply? I'm not worried about the inverter, it's a ProSine and type B approved. But I am worried about sounding Italian because I am. What's the cure for that?
I plan to use my old insulated backstay. It's still in good shape. Does your advice still apply? I'm not worried about the inverter, it's a ProSine and type B approved. But I am worried about sounding Italian because I am. What's the cure for that?
Thanks Patrick, got it.
I plan to use my old insulated backstay. It's still in good shape. Does your advice still apply? I'm not worried about the inverter, it's a ProSine and type B approved. But I am worried about sounding Italian because I am. What's the cure for that?
I plan to use my old insulated backstay. It's still in good shape. Does your advice still apply? I'm not worried about the inverter, it's a ProSine and type B approved. But I am worried about sounding Italian because I am. What's the cure for that?
Fred, I do not understand your question
The backstay is good. I am guessing that you are using an automatic tuner. Put the tuner as close as possible to the feedline to the backstay and ground it with the flat copper strap fed as directly as possible to the RF ground. The tuner is fed with coax. Please use a good quality wire Be careful not to mix up grounds with bonding systems. Use a well insulated wire (not coax) to feed the output of the tuner to the backstay. Do not leave any bare wire or loaded part of the backstay exposed where someone can touch it when transmitting. I do not know if your inverter is electrically noisy or not. I strongly suspect that it is. Most of them that I have seen are poorly designed from the standpoint of interference to AM radios. My advice is to put the radio gear as far away as possible from sources of interference which is most everything computerized or electronic. Ground everything to excess and use toroids and filters whenever and wherever possible. Buy a bucketful. Use a detuned AM broadcast radio to test for sources of noise. The other option is to turn off interfering devices when using the radio. As to your Italian concerns, your name has only three vowels so you are probably ok. If it was something like Chioromonte or something ending in elli or ini, I would suggest that you sell some vowels to someone named Ng. That would help balance out the vowel inequities in the world and make it much easier on us deaf Irish folks. We would all be much better off.
The backstay is good. I am guessing that you are using an automatic tuner. Put the tuner as close as possible to the feedline to the backstay and ground it with the flat copper strap fed as directly as possible to the RF ground. The tuner is fed with coax. Please use a good quality wire Be careful not to mix up grounds with bonding systems. Use a well insulated wire (not coax) to feed the output of the tuner to the backstay. Do not leave any bare wire or loaded part of the backstay exposed where someone can touch it when transmitting. I do not know if your inverter is electrically noisy or not. I strongly suspect that it is. Most of them that I have seen are poorly designed from the standpoint of interference to AM radios. My advice is to put the radio gear as far away as possible from sources of interference which is most everything computerized or electronic. Ground everything to excess and use toroids and filters whenever and wherever possible. Buy a bucketful. Use a detuned AM broadcast radio to test for sources of noise. The other option is to turn off interfering devices when using the radio. As to your Italian concerns, your name has only three vowels so you are probably ok. If it was something like Chioromonte or something ending in elli or ini, I would suggest that you sell some vowels to someone named Ng. That would help balance out the vowel inequities in the world and make it much easier on us deaf Irish folks. We would all be much better off.
Fred, I do not understand your question
The backstay is good. I am guessing that you are using an automatic tuner. Put the tuner as close as possible to the feedline to the backstay and ground it with the flat copper strap fed as directly as possible to the RF ground. The tuner is fed with coax. Please use a good quality wire Be careful not to mix up grounds with bonding systems. Use a well insulated wire (not coax) to feed the output of the tuner to the backstay. Do not leave any bare wire or loaded part of the backstay exposed where someone can touch it when transmitting. I do not know if your inverter is electrically noisy or not. I strongly suspect that it is. Most of them that I have seen are poorly designed from the standpoint of interference to AM radios. My advice is to put the radio gear as far away as possible from sources of interference which is most everything computerized or electronic. Ground everything to excess and use toroids and filters whenever and wherever possible. Buy a bucketful. Use a detuned AM broadcast radio to test for sources of noise. The other option is to turn off interfering devices when using the radio. As to your Italian concerns, your name has only three vowels so you are probably ok. If it was something like Chioromonte or something ending in elli or ini, I would suggest that you sell some vowels to someone named Ng. That would help balance out the vowel inequities in the world and make it much easier on us deaf Irish folks. We would all be much better off.
The backstay is good. I am guessing that you are using an automatic tuner. Put the tuner as close as possible to the feedline to the backstay and ground it with the flat copper strap fed as directly as possible to the RF ground. The tuner is fed with coax. Please use a good quality wire Be careful not to mix up grounds with bonding systems. Use a well insulated wire (not coax) to feed the output of the tuner to the backstay. Do not leave any bare wire or loaded part of the backstay exposed where someone can touch it when transmitting. I do not know if your inverter is electrically noisy or not. I strongly suspect that it is. Most of them that I have seen are poorly designed from the standpoint of interference to AM radios. My advice is to put the radio gear as far away as possible from sources of interference which is most everything computerized or electronic. Ground everything to excess and use toroids and filters whenever and wherever possible. Buy a bucketful. Use a detuned AM broadcast radio to test for sources of noise. The other option is to turn off interfering devices when using the radio. As to your Italian concerns, your name has only three vowels so you are probably ok. If it was something like Chioromonte or something ending in elli or ini, I would suggest that you sell some vowels to someone named Ng. That would help balance out the vowel inequities in the world and make it much easier on us deaf Irish folks. We would all be much better off.
Patrick
Remember, I know little. My radio was originally setup as you describe in your last post. But the remote tuner was fried (literally) after our lightening strike. I installed an internal tuner but didn't use the radio much afterward. It is still not high on my list of priorities. So you're saying that an inverted V antenna gets/needs coax but a insulated backstay antenna must have only insulated wire? That's OK but it makes the autopilot go on strike. Lastly, our inverter carries a FCC class B rating, meaning 'no interference. And it doesn't. Works good.
Remember, I know little. My radio was originally setup as you describe in your last post. But the remote tuner was fried (literally) after our lightening strike. I installed an internal tuner but didn't use the radio much afterward. It is still not high on my list of priorities. So you're saying that an inverted V antenna gets/needs coax but a insulated backstay antenna must have only insulated wire? That's OK but it makes the autopilot go on strike. Lastly, our inverter carries a FCC class B rating, meaning 'no interference. And it doesn't. Works good.
Patrick
Remember, I know little. My radio was originally setup as you describe in your last post. But the remote tuner was fried (literally) after our lightening strike. I installed an internal tuner but didn't use the radio much afterward. It is still not high on my list of priorities. So you're saying that an inverted V antenna gets/needs coax but a insulated backstay antenna must have only insulated wire? That's OK but it makes the autopilot go on strike. Lastly, our inverter carries a FCC class B rating, meaning 'no interference. And it doesn't. Works good.
Remember, I know little. My radio was originally setup as you describe in your last post. But the remote tuner was fried (literally) after our lightening strike. I installed an internal tuner but didn't use the radio much afterward. It is still not high on my list of priorities. So you're saying that an inverted V antenna gets/needs coax but a insulated backstay antenna must have only insulated wire? That's OK but it makes the autopilot go on strike. Lastly, our inverter carries a FCC class B rating, meaning 'no interference. And it doesn't. Works good.
Al, just reread your question
Thought I might add that my friend has a ketch rig with an insulated triatic stay fed by an unshielded wire passed up through his wooden mizzen mast. I think that it has caused a lot of feedback into the other gear on the boat. I think the other shrouds carry the RF back into the boat. His radio and tuner are mounted near the aft end of the engine compartment just below the mizzen. The control panel for the radio is in his main salon - 20 feet forward of that and his packet controller and laptop are in the nav station to the far side of the boat. Lots of cables connecting all of this and lots of troubles with communications reliability. There was a problem with his autopilot changing course when he transmitted. He should buy stock in the toroid manufacturing companies. Have you considered using an insulated topping lift? I am not sure where you would put the tuner but they aren't so big that you couldn't put it on the base of the mast or boom or are they?
Thought I might add that my friend has a ketch rig with an insulated triatic stay fed by an unshielded wire passed up through his wooden mizzen mast. I think that it has caused a lot of feedback into the other gear on the boat. I think the other shrouds carry the RF back into the boat. His radio and tuner are mounted near the aft end of the engine compartment just below the mizzen. The control panel for the radio is in his main salon - 20 feet forward of that and his packet controller and laptop are in the nav station to the far side of the boat. Lots of cables connecting all of this and lots of troubles with communications reliability. There was a problem with his autopilot changing course when he transmitted. He should buy stock in the toroid manufacturing companies. Have you considered using an insulated topping lift? I am not sure where you would put the tuner but they aren't so big that you couldn't put it on the base of the mast or boom or are they?
Al, just reread your question
Thought I might add that my friend has a ketch rig with an insulated triatic stay fed by an unshielded wire passed up through his wooden mizzen mast. I think that it has caused a lot of feedback into the other gear on the boat. I think the other shrouds carry the RF back into the boat. His radio and tuner are mounted near the aft end of the engine compartment just below the mizzen. The control panel for the radio is in his main salon - 20 feet forward of that and his packet controller and laptop are in the nav station to the far side of the boat. Lots of cables connecting all of this and lots of troubles with communications reliability. There was a problem with his autopilot changing course when he transmitted. He should buy stock in the toroid manufacturing companies. Have you considered using an insulated topping lift? I am not sure where you would put the tuner but they aren't so big that you couldn't put it on the base of the mast or boom or are they?
Thought I might add that my friend has a ketch rig with an insulated triatic stay fed by an unshielded wire passed up through his wooden mizzen mast. I think that it has caused a lot of feedback into the other gear on the boat. I think the other shrouds carry the RF back into the boat. His radio and tuner are mounted near the aft end of the engine compartment just below the mizzen. The control panel for the radio is in his main salon - 20 feet forward of that and his packet controller and laptop are in the nav station to the far side of the boat. Lots of cables connecting all of this and lots of troubles with communications reliability. There was a problem with his autopilot changing course when he transmitted. He should buy stock in the toroid manufacturing companies. Have you considered using an insulated topping lift? I am not sure where you would put the tuner but they aren't so big that you couldn't put it on the base of the mast or boom or are they?
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