Side Stay Tension

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ColumbiaRiverDoug

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Dec 5, 2016
15
Hunter 140 Scappoose, Or
Hi Everyone,

I wondered for quite a while about how much tension should be on the side stays of my Hunter 140. So, it's time to ask those with experience: When underway and healed in about 15 Knots of wind (small white caps), the leeward side stay is pretty floppy. Is that OK? What do you look for when tuning tension your side stays?

Many thanks,

Columbia River Doug
 
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Calif. Ted

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Jun 8, 2004
2,860
Catalina 320 Dana Point
Doug, We like to call those side stays "shrouds" and reserve "stay" for fore and aft, we know what you mean but you'll sound more nautical.;)
 
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ColumbiaRiverDoug

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Dec 5, 2016
15
Hunter 140 Scappoose, Or
Thanks to rgranger and Calif. Ted for comments. I did not have the owner's manual, so I really appreciate the link. Lots of usefule info there! But the description of "Tight but not too tight" to describe the shroud tension is pretty vague. Should the lee shroud be loose and floppy when the boat is healed? I hesitate to put too much tension on the shroud considering how delicate the hull material is.
 
DayDreamer41

DayDreamer41

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Oct 29, 2016
1,915
Hunter 41 DS Port Huron
If too floppy and you end up with an accidental jibe you could be without rigging all together. Being a H14 I would imagine that this is a trailer sailor and not knowing a whole lot about your particular boat, I would at least tension the stays to at least minimize the amount of slack on the leeward side.
 
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ColumbiaRiverDoug

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Dec 5, 2016
15
Hunter 140 Scappoose, Or
Thank you DayDreamer41! I live on the water in a floating home, so the boat is ready to go when there is enough wind (and I have the time). But you are right, I am no expert on rigging and that's why I posted my question. 'Sounds like I have too little tension in the stays, so I'll put a little more tension in the Spring when I rig it again. Floppy leeward tension didn't seem right to me either...

Thanks for your advice!
 
J

JBP-PA

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Apr 29, 2022
401
Jeanneau Tonic 23 Erie, PA
In my opinion, your shrouds should never be floppy loose, there should always be some tension. If your mast is moving and pumping, that causes work hardening and early failure.
You can tighten the shrouds very tight before you damage the boat. On a 14ft boat, you can probably hand tighten them enough to keep them tight. Now some people say that the leeward shrouds should be just barely floppy when sailing in the strongest winds you expect, but I think that is still too loose.
 
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ColumbiaRiverDoug

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Dec 5, 2016
15
Hunter 140 Scappoose, Or
Thank you JBP-PA! There is certainly a consensus to tighten the shrouds more than I have. I tend to sail with the opposite gunnel just above the surface as I am happy with the excitement (I've capsized once in the last 4 years and don't care for a repeat). I probably stress the rigging more than most would. Still, I'll head your advice and significantly tighten the shrouds...and not worry about damaging the boat.

Thank you for your advice!
 
Joe

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,007
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
There are two phases of rig tuning. At the dock first, the main purpose is to get the mast straight. Then on the water, where you can observe the sag on each side under load. You make your adjustment to the lee side and match that to the windward side to keep the mast straight, i.e. count the number of turns you make to remove the sag, and make the same number to the opposite side.

If you are trailering your boat and you must disconnect the turnbuckles to take down the mast, you should consider replacing them with quick release, pin stop adjusters. These devices allow you to set your shroud tension easily, since you use the same hole each time. There will be a lever that allows you to releive tension on the shrouds for taking the mast down.....or.... as some racers do... take the bend out mast for downwind sailing... but that's another subject, sorry if it may seem confusing.

 
Will Gilmore

Will Gilmore

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Oct 19, 2017
7,747
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
JBP-PA said:
In my opinion, your shrouds should never be floppy loose, there should always be some tension. If your mast is moving and pumping, that causes work hardening and early failure.
You can tighten the shrouds very tight before you damage the boat. On a 14ft boat, you can probably hand tighten them enough to keep them tight. Now some people say that the leeward shrouds should be just barely floppy when sailing in the strongest winds you expect, but I think that is still too loose.
Click to expand
Joe said:
There are two phases of rig tuning. At the dock first, the main purpose is to get the mast straight. Then on the water, where you can observe the sag on each side under load. You make your adjustment to the lee side and match that to the windward side to keep the mast straight, i.e. count the number of turns you make to remove the sag, and make the same number to the opposite side.
Click to expand
:plus:
Always, the goal is to keep everything where you want it, and where you want it is centered port and starboard. Keep bows out, unless you intend to have a pre-bend load. Don't tighten the floppy shrouds fully while under sail like that, do it about half way, then change tack and make the other side equal. You don't want to tighten the first side enough that you have trouble tightening the other side. Then you're in danger of over tightening.

I like to see the leeward shrouds relax but not deflect from inline.

-Will
 
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Joe

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,007
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Will Gilmore said:
:plus:
Always, the goal is to keep everything where you want it, and where you want it is centered port and starboard. Keep bows out, unless you intend to have a pre-bend load. Don't tighten the floppy shrouds fully while under sail like that, do it about half way, then change tack and make the other side equal. You don't want to tighten the first side enough that you have trouble tightening the other side. Then you're in danger of over tightening.

I like to see the leeward shrouds relax but not deflect from inline.

-Will
Click to expand
Thanks for clarifying the process, Will. As you pointed out, you'll not want to max the leeward shroud. certainly no more than half. You'll want to remove the slack by adjusting both sides in increments, going back and forth to each side with the same number of turns on the turnbuckle will insure that the rig tension remains balanced. It's easier to do this on one tack. Then when you're happy with it, tack over and see how the other side looks, then you can tweak it again if you deem it desireable.
 
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ColumbiaRiverDoug

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Dec 5, 2016
15
Hunter 140 Scappoose, Or
Thank you everyone for all the useful tips regarding shroud tension. I'll look forward to making those adjustments next time I am on the water. Now, just one more thing: Joe mentioned "At the dock first, the main purpose is to get the mast straight...then adjust the shroud tension on the water". So, with regard to the mast being straight, how much rake should there be? Currently the mast is tilted back toward the stern...I'm guessing 5 degrees or so (I can take a precise measurement). As a high-wind windsurfer, I rake the mast way back when powered up. Can anyone make a suggestion on how much mast rake should be on the 140?
 
Joe

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,007
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
ColumbiaRiverDoug said:
So, with regard to the mast being straight, how much rake should there be?
Click to expand
Set your rake first, then adjust your shrouds. The boat is a 14 foot, center board dinghy. No backstay, no spreaders. If you add rake (by lengthening the forestay) the shrouds will become looser, because of the rig's geometry. Reducing rake, you'll need to lengthen the shrouds. That's why you'll want to set the rake first. On my Nacra beach cat, and old Lido 14, I usually set the rake when I rigged up on the trailer in the parking lot, for the prevailing wind and pretty much left it the same all day. Too much rake will put too much pressure on the rudder and slow the boat down or exaggerate heeling, so go easy at first. Like wind surfing, use your body position, fore and aft, inboard or outboard, to balance the boat with your rig and the underwater foils. That's the fun of dinghy sailing. Hiking straps are cool, too. Make sure you have tell tales on you jib's luff, and the leech of you mainsail.

I would use the owner's manual as a starting point for setting the rake... but it always comes down to preference. Having pin hole adjusters, rather than turnbuckles, makes it a lot easier to set up or make changes rather than counting turns.


 
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shemandr

shemandr

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Jan 1, 2006
7,077
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
Rake relates to the feel of the helm. As a windsurfer you already know how rake affects going upwind vs. downwind. It's the same on a dingy except less so. So if the rake is too far forward the boat will have "Lee helm." That means if the helm is left untouched the boat will turn downwind. We don't want this. If the rake is too far aft the "Weather helm" will tend to turn into the wind. We don't want this because you will have to use too much rudder (Brake) to keep the boat from heading up too much and that is slow. You'll see the number of about 3 degrees of weather helm as being the correct amount. Dingys are different in that weight distribution affects helm balance to a large degree. Nevertheless, the 3 degree is a good starting place.
 
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Will Gilmore

Will Gilmore

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Oct 19, 2017
7,747
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
Joe said:
Too much rake will put too much pressure on the rudder and slow the boat down or exaggerate heeling,
Click to expand
I had not heard this before. Very interesting. Is the pressure on the rudder from the weather helm and why does it exaggerate heeling?

-Will
 
rgranger

rgranger

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Jan 19, 2010
12,377
Hobie 16 & Rhodes 22 Skeeter Charleston
Joe said:
Too much rake will put too much pressure on the rudder and slow the boat down or exaggerate heeling, so go easy at first.
Click to expand
I'm with @Will Gilmore on this statement. Rake will move the center of effort aft... and this will increase weather helm but only if you pass the point of a balanced helm. Rake is one way to improve lee helm. As far as powering up goes, that only makes sense if rake increases the bag in the pocket. If you pull down on the vang, this will not happen.
 
Joe

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,007
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Will Gilmore said:
I had not heard this before. Very interesting. Is the pressure on the rudder from the weather helm and why does it exaggerate heeling?

-Will
Click to expand
More rake = more weather helm
Too much weather helm = boat wants to round up excessively
Threat of rounding up = skipper pulls tiller to windward, increasing rudder angle
Increasing rudder angle to keep boat on course = boat speed slows because rudder is now dragging
Slowing boats peed = apparent wind angle moves aft.
AWA moving aft = unblanced pressure on windward side of sail
UNBALANCED windward pressure on sail= HEELING
 
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