shower system confussion

justsomeguy · Feb 20, 2015

Uh, keep pulling up sole (flooring)?

ALNims · Feb 20, 2015

Dufour Manual

I found this copy of an owners manual on line. Please see attached.

mitiempo · Feb 21, 2015

There is typically a pump with float inside the shower sump tank, or there could be one installed remotely. The shower sump does not pump to the holding tank but overboard.

Jackdaw · Feb 21, 2015

mitiempo said:
There is typically a pump with float inside the shower sump tank, or there could be one installed remotely. The shower sump does not pump to the holding tank but overboard.

Could be... but it all depends on the local gray-water regs that were bothering the owner who had the mod done.

Some areas you can't dump in marinas, harbors, and anchorages.

Some say you can't dump it at all; treat it like black.

Others say do what you want.

Only thing for sure is you don't want it loose in the bilge.

mitiempo · Feb 21, 2015

Jackdaw said:
Could be... but it all depends on the local gray-water regs that were bothering the owner who had the mod done.

Some areas you can't dump in marinas, harbors, and anchorages.

Some say you can't dump it at all; treat it like black.

I guess some lakes may be no dump areas and a few harbors possibly but in the rest of the world dumping grey is totally acceptable.

Jess is referring to his showers. His sinks I am sure drain overboard without a sump tank/pump arrangement.

Jackdaw · Feb 21, 2015

mitiempo said:
I guess some lakes may be no dump areas and a few harbors possibly but in the rest of the world dumping grey is totally acceptable.

That's simply incorrect.

woodster · Feb 21, 2015

here is a post from wikipedia......

Graywater[edit]
Under current federal law, graywater is not defined as a pollutant, nor is it generally considered to be sewage. By regulation, EPA exempts discharges incidental to the normal operation of a vessel, including graywater, from NPDES permit requirements;[4] however, a federal court has ordered EPA to set aside this rule (see discussion of ballast water). There are no separate federal effluent standards for graywater discharges. The Clean Water Act only includes graywater in its definition of sewage for the express purpose of regulating commercial vessels in the Great Lakes, under the Section 312 MSD requirements. Thus, currently graywater can be discharged by vessels anywhere — except in the Great Lakes, where the Section 312 MSD rules apply, but those rules prescribe limits only for bacterial contaminant content and total suspended solids in graywater. Pursuant to a state law in Alaska, graywater must be treated prior to discharge into that state’s waters (see discussion below).

CloudDiver · Feb 21, 2015

I can only say, from experience as recent as my last cruise on active duty in 2010, that US Navy ships typically treat grey water the same as black, meaning we don't pump over the side inside of 12 NM. Once we are close to shore we hold it onboard, so every time sea and anchor detail is called securing showers is part of the routine. On the other side of that coin, speaking about 'the rest of the world'; Yes, they absolutely do pump grey water over the side just about anywhere they feel like it!

mitiempo · Feb 21, 2015

CloudDiver said:
I can only say, from experience as recent as my last cruise on active duty in 2010, that US Navy ships typically treat grey water the same as black, meaning we don't pump over the side inside of 12 NM. Once we are close to shore we hold it onboard, so every time sea and anchor detail is called securing showers is part of the routine. On the other side of that coin, speaking about 'the rest of the world'; Yes, they absolutely do pump grey water over the side just about anywhere they feel like it!

And pleasure boats are not under the same restrictions as commercial shipping is.

How many boats do you know of that have collection tanks for grey water?

There are no restrictions on Canada's salt water coastlines for pleasure boats pumping grey water.

CloudDiver · Feb 21, 2015

mitiempo said:
And pleasure boats are not under the same restrictions as commercial shipping is.

How many boats do you know of that have collection tanks for grey water?

There are no restrictions on Canada's salt water coastlines for pleasure boats pumping grey water.

Yeah, you kinda just reenforced my point. I made the post because US Navy standards typically 'exceed the minimum', because a US Navy Commander does not fear anything... except the EPA! Did you know a Captain of a US Navy ship can actually be fined individually by the EPA? This is the only case where civilian law can bypass the UCMJ.
Anyway, more to the point, my observations about the 'rest of the world' is mostly in the Eastern Hemisphere where US Navy ships operate, and personally witnessing commercial and pleasure craft pump grey AND black over the side wherever they please.

Jackdaw · Feb 22, 2015

You guys have clearly never sailed in the med.

gettinthere · Feb 22, 2015

There have been threats of banning grey water discharge in the Great Lakes but not followed thru.

About 5 years ago the epa proposed regulations so stringent that washing your boat would have been considered an illegal discharge along with engine cooling water. It took a while but congress finally acted to stop that.

bawlmer · Feb 22, 2015

I heard you can't dump grey water in the mediterranean and they fine you heavily for doing so. Given the size of the boat maybe the PO was entertaining the idea of going over there.

CloudDiver · Feb 23, 2015

Jackdaw said:
You guys have clearly never sailed in the med.

I guess I should have been more specific, as in dead center target... I was referring to Asia, South East Asia, Middle East etc.; mostly 3rd World regions where they don't have enough maritime law enforcement to cover everything and the people in general have a noted distaste for following any gov't regulation, just don't care, or are totally ignorant of environmental stewardship... i.e. they dump whatever they want, wherever they want.

And yes, for more than a year I sailed in and out of the Med, up to the Baltic, and back down again. Any more assumptions?

Jackdaw · Feb 23, 2015

CloudDiver said:
I guess I should have been more specific, as in dead center target... I was referring to Asia, South East Asia, Middle East etc.; mostly 3rd World regions where they don't have enough maritime law enforcement to cover everything and the people in general have a noted distaste for following any gov't regulation, just don't care, or are totally ignorant of environmental stewardship... i.e. they dump whatever they want, wherever they want.

And yes, for more than a year I sailed in and out of the Med, up to the Baltic, and back down again. Any more assumptions?

No, not more specific. Less general.

Regarding the assumption.. with all due respect to your service, for the purposes of our discussion I personally would not consider your role on a 600 foot long grayship 'sailing in the med'.

CloudDiver · Feb 23, 2015

Jackdaw said:
No, not more specific. Less general.

Regarding the assumption.. with all due respect to your service, for the purposes of our discussion I personally would not consider your role on a 600 foot long grayship 'sailing in the med'.

Again, you assume too much. That particular assignment was not on a 'grayship', and if you feel like you need to try your hand at Navy Lingo at least get it right, they are 'Grey Hulls'. Also, we used to call it 'Steaming', some old salts still do; but today it doesn't matter if it's Nuclear, Gas Turbine, or our newest Diesel-Electric Hybrids, the US Navy calls it 'Sailing'...

Further, for the purposes of this discussion (and I'll be less general so you don't get befuddled) about overboard discharge of Grey Water waste, you know diddly squat about what my role on that ship was and to what degree of responsibility I had... I'm sure your knowledge of line and canvas 'sailing' exceeds mine by far, but stop making assumptions about the experience of others.

Try being a little less passive aggressive, you'd probably have more friends that way.

VF84Sluggo · Feb 24, 2015

CloudDiver said:
...but today it doesn't matter if it's Nuclear, Gas Turbine, or our newest Diesel-Electric Hybrids, the US Navy calls it 'Sailing'...

True statement, shipmate! Even referred to getting/being underway on a boat the size of Nimitz that way (the 'black shoes' are grinding their teeth now over me calling a ship a 'boat'...they'll get over it.) Even us aviators would ask about when we "sail."

...sorry for the brief hijack, now back to the thread topic

Jackdaw · Feb 24, 2015

CloudDiver said:
Again, you assume too much. That particular assignment was not on a 'grayship', and if you feel like you need to try your hand at Navy Lingo at least get it right, they are 'Grey Hulls'. Also, we used to call it 'Steaming', some old salts still do; but today it doesn't matter if it's Nuclear, Gas Turbine, or our newest Diesel-Electric Hybrids, the US Navy calls it 'Sailing'...

Further, for the purposes of this discussion (and I'll be less general so you don't get befuddled) about overboard discharge of Grey Water waste, you know diddly squat about what my role on that ship was and to what degree of responsibility I had... I'm sure your knowledge of line and canvas 'sailing' exceeds mine by far, but stop making assumptions about the experience of others.

Try being a little less passive aggressive, you'd probably have more friends that way.

Huh. All this bluster does not change the fact that there are places in the med where it is ILLEGAL to discharge graywater. When you actually want to discuss that and not your illustrious naval career, let me know and I'll reengage with you not this matter. Until then, this is my final word.

shower system confussion

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