Should spreaders be loose?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Nov 9, 2008
1,338
Pearson-O'Day 290 Portland Maine
Nuff said? My spreaders are 1" O.D. set in brackets with a 1 1/8" I.D. No out-of-round thing happening, just too big. Does this sound right? I've seen spreaders that appear to have pivots at the mast so before I replace them, I want to check with the brotherhood.
 

Alan

.
Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
Spreaders are held taught by the shroud tension. The base of the spreader is there just to keep it from moving around. The 1/8" difference means nothing so long as they remain properly tensioned and are set at the correct angle. Leeward shrouds should never go slack.
 
Oct 26, 2005
2,057
- - Satellite Beach, FL.
IIRC, some boats came with loose or "articulating" spreaders that are allowed a small arc of fore and aft swing.
 

Kermit

.
Jul 31, 2010
5,669
AquaCat 12.5 17342 Wateree Lake, SC
Spreaders are held taught by the shroud tension. The base of the spreader is there just to keep it from moving around. The 1/8" difference means nothing so long as they remain properly tensioned and are set at the correct angle. Leeward shrouds should never go slack.
Thanks for posting your "leeward shrouds should never go slack" comment. We were sailing in a pretty heavy wind (heavy for us anyway) and the main was NOT reefed. I noticed the inner leeward shroud not only went slack, it was pretty dang slack. Happened on both tacks. I have often thought my shrouds were too tight. Now I'm thinking they're too loose.

I need to post pictures of my mast so y'all can evaluate the rake. Pretty heavy-duty aft rake to it.

Kermit
 

Tim R.

.
May 27, 2004
3,626
Caliber 40 Long Range Cruiser Portland, Maine
Don, I would not worry about a little play in the spreaders. My Pearson 28 also had spreaders that were a touch smaller than the sockets.

Leeward shrouds can go slack and you will only destroy your rigging trying to over tighten to alleviate this. Some boats are more flexible than others and in a blow will show slack leeward shrouds.

I would say leeward shrouds should not go slack in light to medium winds for some boats.

You should be tightening your shrouds based on maximum specs for the wire size and also according to your manufacturer specs.
 

Alan

.
Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
Absolutely too loose. If your rig is properly set up the leeward shrouds should NEVER go slack no matter how hard it's blowing. First get your mast rake set by adjusting the length of the headstay. One to 2% of mast height is the average but you can dial in whatever feels best for you. After the rake is set don't touch the turnbuckle on the headstay any more. Then tension your rig using a Loos gauge. This will get you the same tension on both sides. The gauge has a device with specs for all shroud sizes. Next take the boat for a sail and see how she feels. Both tacks upwind should feel exactly the same. There are more ways to tweak the rig for best performance but this is the basic setup.
 

RECESS

.
Dec 20, 2003
1,505
Pearson 323 . St. Mary's Georgia
It depends on the design of the boat as to whether the leeward side shrouds go slack. I have my shrouds set at the exact recommendation of the rigging guide for the Oday 25. I have also checked them with the loos gauge I keep on the boat. They are exactly where they should be. When under sail the leeward side always goes slack. More people get into trouble cranking them too tight and then bad things happen. Set them to the rigging guide. I have no idea what the Hunter 23 is supposed to be.

You can see in the first 40 seconds of this video my leeward and windward shrouds. This is pretty tame wind and we are just moving at 4 knots.

 

Kermit

.
Jul 31, 2010
5,669
AquaCat 12.5 17342 Wateree Lake, SC
You can see in the first 40 seconds of this video my leeward and windward shrouds. This is pretty tame wind and we are just moving at 4 knots.
Watched the first minute. My leeward shrouds didn't get near that slack. I've been trying to look up the specs for my shrouds. Might take a call to Hunter.

Really great hearing your Georgia Peach speaking, y'all!

Kermit
 
Oct 6, 2008
857
Hunter, Island Packet, Catalina, San Juan 26,38,22,23 Kettle Falls, Washington
About 10 years ago we owned a 95 H26 with the B&R rig. That meant that there was no backstay. The spreaders were swept back at a greater angle that a standard rig. Because of this Hunter recommended that the shrouds be tensioned at 20% of their breaking strength rather than the standard 10%.
We adjusted the rig with a Loos gauge but I chickened out and set the shrouds to 15% rather than 20% It was previously set at less than 5% max. It sailed like a new boat. There was a very noticeable improvement and it pointed way better. Since that time I have adjusted every boat we owned (5 from 14' to 38') to 10% at the first of the year and at mid season. Even with this program using the Loos gauge the leeward shroud goes slack in a big blow. Above about 15 to 18 knots with the 150 on. With the 100 it is not noticably loose. The gauge will tell you the wire size and the setting required to reach 10% which is what most boats require.
Hope this helps.
Ray
 

RichH

.
Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Hold on guys and girls there's 2 things going on simultaneously with rig tension:
1. its a structural platform which determines the shape of the sails ... chiefly the headsail
2. When 300 series stainless due to dynamic sailing conditions goes above 30000 psi (about 30% of ultimate breaking strength of ~90,000psi) its service life becomes increasingly lessened due to 'fatigue' (also known as embrittlement or 'cold working'). Simple speak: take 300 series stainless above 30% tension, load it cyclically ..... expect the rig to fail prematurely.

First, The basic shroud or stay tension on most 'normal boats' (not includeing B&R rigs) is 15% (of breaking strength of the wire) .... even the cap shrouds (main "side stay") typically should be 15% because it ultimately 'reacts' with the headstay, especially when the boat is heeled over - it helps support the tension in the headstay (and backstay). Your sailmaker 'expects' that the headstay will be operating at near 15% for sailing in winds/waves at up to 15 kts. .... and the combo of backstay/sidestay/forestay tension will define a *Predictable* sag in the headstay/sidestay wire --- and the sailmaker 'depends' and 'expects' that basic tension and CUTS the leading edge / luff of the headsail to *match* that predicted sag. If the basic rig tension is less than 15%, then the sail will no longer 'match' the now *increased* sag ('catenary' shape) of the stay that supports the jib. The result is god-awful draft-aft jib sail shape and lousy boat performance, cant point worth a damn, the boat aggressively heels over and is slow as hell and is 'cranky', etc.

If the rig is adjusted (and left at) over 15% (static adjustment), and the boat heels over that shroud (side stay, forestay/headstay etc.) tension can easily exceed 30% tension during 'dynamic' load conditions ..... and going over that 30% exceeds whats known as the "fatigue endurance limit" (see note below) - the amount of stress that causes fatigue (failure) to begin in earnest and the rigging is 'accelerated' towards failure.
In the original design of most boats the designer will theoretically pull the boat over to about a 45° heel angle, calculate the possible loading that the wire has to support, selects the wire size so that the maximum stress applied to do this theoretical heeling is about or slightly less than 30% of the ultimate tensile strength of the wire (ref.: endurance limit). This keeps the 'normal' sailing loads under that 'endurance limit' below 30000 psi (including inbuilt designer's normal 'safety factors') ... there's much more to it than this but this explanation should suffice for the sake of this discussion.
So if you for some reason set the side stay wire at 30%, heel the boat to beyond 45 degrees, the endurance limit of the wire will be exceeded every time you pass 45° .... and the rigging wont last very long before it 'fatigues', etc.
Set the rig at 5%, and you may experience 'impacts' of the rigging as the mast 'slops' back and forth.
Basic 'plain vanilla' rig tune should be ~15% .... and if your mast isnt 'bendy', you probably will notice very little 'leeward shroud slop'.

So, besides keeping the mast somewhat up in the air and somewhat pointing in the right direction, the rigging ALSO has a *lot* to do with how the sails take their shape. 15% (static load) is the 'basic' value that the sailmaker is looking for ... for average performance, for average safety, etc.

15% is the basic rig tension --- most boat designers and most sailmakers DEPEND on it.

Racers overly stress rigging to accomplish different desired sail shape, etc. .... and then need to replace the rigging more often because they very often exceed the 'endurance limit' and the rigging simply will fail 'earlier' than a 'normal' sailboater.

-----------------
note: Fatigue Endurance Limit for 300 series stainless is approx. 30000 psi. When cyclical or repetitive loads are applied that exceed the 'approximate' Fatigue Endurance Limit @ 30% tension (about 30000 psi) typical, FAILURE will occur at approx. ~1 million load cycles. Fatigue Endurance limit in 'critical' structures is usually precisely defined as a result of extensive destructive testing, as geometries/shapes, etc. also affect this failure mode. For sailboats the economical way to design for *fatigue* is simply to 'accept' a 'rule of thumb' of 30000 psi as the common accepted fatigue endurance limit for 300 series stainless ... without 'testing'. The ultimate tensile value for 300 series stainless is ~90,000 psi .... thats the 'ductile' breaking strength. Fatigue failure is NOT a ductile failure mode; fatigue is an 'embrittlement' failure ... very very very different than ductile failure.
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
8,169
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
It depends on the design of the boat as to whether the leeward side shrouds go slack. ........................ When under sail the leeward side always goes slack. More people get into trouble cranking them too tight and then bad things happen. Set them to the rigging guide. I have no idea what the Hunter 23 is supposed to be.

You can see in the first 40 seconds of this video my leeward and windward shrouds. This is pretty tame wind and we are just moving at 4 knots.
Sorry Recess........ do not agree with you. Try to find any sail tuning guide that says the leeward shrouds should be slacking under such benign conditions.... No matter what the specs say on your Loos tool...... you shouldn't have that kind of flapping. NOT good... if it's only for the same reason as letting your sails flog... lots of unnecessary wear and tear.

I suggest you try tuning your sails WITHOUT the guage. Start with this guide: http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/masttuning/tuning.htm

I promise your boat will perform much better and not make so much noise.
 
Jul 1, 2004
567
Hunter 40 St. Petersburg
Wow! That's LOOSE!

You can see in the first 40 seconds of this video my leeward and windward shrouds. This is pretty tame wind and we are just moving at 4 knots.
If you're setting any kind of tension on your shrouds while at rest (sails down) and then getting that much leeward slacking under a light load then you've got some pretty major flexing going on somewhere.
 
Nov 9, 2008
1,338
Pearson-O'Day 290 Portland Maine
My shrouds go a little loose, but not slack, when we get into 10-15 knot winds. We can still make 6 1/2 knots so I'm guessing the sail shape is acceptable for the old girl. But, pointing alludes us. I've heard that it's the nature of Lancers. One of my problems, from one of the many volumes, is that I have nothing to compare it to. I think my boat is fairly stiff because on the bay others will be heeled over and we're not. But maybe we're doing it wrong. I don't know. That's why I ask. Better to be thought an idiot than be identified by next-of-kin!
 

RECESS

.
Dec 20, 2003
1,505
Pearson 323 . St. Mary's Georgia
To be honest, I have been procrastinating checking them. They do need to be backed all the way out and tightened again. They are always a little slacked on the leeward side, but that might be excessive.
 
Mar 8, 2011
296
Ranger 33 Norfolk
I thought my spearders were loose because they were worn, but I found out they are designed to have a few degrees of swing fore and aft. . .which is great, because that means one less thing for me to have to fix :dance:

As for loose shrouds. . .the uppers seem to be tight no matter the tack, the lowers do loosen a bit on the leeward side though. I was told it was supposed to be like this though. . .but nothing as loose as in that video :doh:
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,606
Frers 33 41426 Westport, CT
RECESS said:
You can see in the first 40 seconds of this video my leeward and windward shrouds. This is pretty tame wind and we are just moving at 4 knots.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Edb2SDS1yJ4">YouTube Link</a>
You really need to tighten up your life lines!
 
Jun 8, 2004
853
Pearson 26W Marblehead
shroud tension

Listen to Alan & Joe No flopping around on lee shrouds period. If you have iffy spreaders I would get them fixed
 
Status
Not open for further replies.