Setting up a third reef

[Vega1447]

A couple of times I have been over canvassed going to windward with two reefs in my newish Dacron main sail with my also newish furling headsail partly furled (with foam luff so works well when partly furled).

So for about Euro 150 I had a third reef added by a well regarded sail maker. Reefing cringle, reef points for laces and reinforcements in sail.

I have "slab" reefing.

So to the point, I plan to use the first reefing line to put in the third reef on the rare occasions when it is needed. Keeping the second reef in place. Unreaving the first reefing line and passing it through the 3rd reefing
outhaul on leech of sail and back to turning block on boom and forward along boom to cleat. Of course the reef ring/cringle on tack of sail is hauled down to a snap hook at the goose neck.

(I've read that this is often done with slab reefing to avoid having a permanent reefing line for the rarely used third reef?)

I tried this today in light airs to check that the lines ran ok. All went fine.

Of course the leech of the sail is outhauled using the turning block (intended for the first reef) at aft end of boom. So the leech cringle is outhauled fine but the reefing line is almost horizontal so leech of sail at third reef isn't pulled down onto boom.

Maybe this doesn't matter? I thought of lashing the reefing line down to the boom just aft of the leech cringle when I use the third reef "in anger".

Easily done with a (say) 5 metre 5mm line with a loop at the end. A few turns around the boom and job done.

I'd be grateful for comments. Am I overcomplicating this? Or have I missed something?

Thanks. John V1447 Breakaway

 

[alaskaflyfish]

As they say John, a picture is worth a thousand words. I would like to see where this thread goes since I was also considering a 3rd reef versus a storm tri-sail.

 

[Vega1447]

Hi Tim.

Yes I should have taken a photo.

(*Slaps own head*)I will do next weekend.In the meantime I suppose I am asking

A) is this a standard setup as my wordy description has it?

and

B) am i doing it right?Thanks,

John --

John A. Kinsella Ph: +353-61-202148 (Direct)

+353-61-333644 x 2148 (Switch)

Mathematics Dept. e-mail: John.Kinsella@...

University of Limerick FAX: +353-61-334927

IRELAND Web:

John Kinsella's Website

jkcray.maths.ul.ie

 

[pelagicasd]

Tim, We had new sails for Lyric built by Neil Pryde. Jim Leech the Neil Pryde sail maker in San Francisco talked us out of a tri-sail and said on a boat as small as a Vega a 3rd reef was all we really needed. That's what we went with and never needed it.
As an aside, Lyric was rigged with jiffy reefing and we used it frequently. They could have made more money by doing the extra sail for us. Mostly they're making wind surfer sails now and I don't know if they're still doing boat sails. We were very pleased
with ours. Walt

From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Tim Malone alaskaflyfish@... [AlbinVega] AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 1:37 PM
To: John.Kinsella@... [AlbinVega]
Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Setting up a third reef


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As they say John, a picture is worth a thousand words. I would like to see where this thread goes since I was also considering a 3rd reef versus a storm tri-sail.

 

[btfag0s]

Hi John,  It all seems fine to me, with one exception:  I installed a Barton slab reefing system (decades ago and still going strong ) with two reefs, but when I tried to use either of the reefs I found that the reef points in the middle of the sail twisted the sail shape and were under undue pressure. Now I just hook the luff cringle on to a snap shackle and haul the luff through the Barton kit. Do haul the reef forward … you can tension it far more easily - I just lean on it a couple of times and cleat it off, and ignore the small cringles for laces.  My setup is pretty much like this: Barton Marine - Tech Info - Sail Handling - Slab Reefing Kit Fitting 8.5m  Alisdair    From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 30 October 2017 21:25To: Tim Malone alaskaflyfish@... [AlbinVega]Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Setting up a third reef  Hi Tim.Yes I should have taken a photo. (*Slaps own head*)I will do next weekend.In the meantime I  suppose I am askingA) is this a standard setup as my wordy description has it?andB) am i doing it right?Thanks,John --John A. Kinsella Ph: +353-61-202148 (Direct)+353-61-333644 x 2148 (Switch)Mathematics Dept. e-mail: John.Kinsella@...University of Limerick FAX: +353-61-334927IRELAND Web: http://jkcray.maths.ul.ieOn 30 Oct 2017, at 8:42 pm, "Tim Malone alaskaflyfish@... [AlbinVega]" <AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   As they say John, a picture is worth a thousand words. I would like to see where this thread goes since I was also considering a 3rd reef versus a storm tri-sail.    On Monday, October 30, 2017, 12:30:19 PM AKDT, John.Kinsella@... [AlbinVega] <AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com> wrote:      A couple of times I have been over canvassed going to windward with two reefs in my newish Dacron main sail with my also newish furling headsail partly furled (with foam luff so works well when partly furled).So for about Euro 150 I had a third reef added by a well regarded sail maker. Reefing cringle, reef points for laces and reinforcements in sail.I have "slab" reefing.So to the point, I plan to use the first reefing line to put in the third reef on the rare occasions when it is needed. Keeping the second reef in place. Unreaving the first reefing line and passing it through the 3rd reefing outhaul on leech of sail and back to turning block on boom and forward along boom to cleat. Of course the reef ring/cringle on tack of sail is hauled down to a snap hook at the goose neck.(I\'ve read that this is often done with slab reefing to avoid having a permanent reefing line for the rarely used third reef?)I tried this today in light airs to check that the lines ran ok. All went fine.Of course the leech of the sail is outhauled using the turning block (intended for the first reef) at aft end of boom. So the leech cringle is outhauled fine but the reefing line is almost horizontal so leech of sail at third reef isn\'t pulled down onto boom.Maybe this doesn\'t matter? I thought of lashing the reefing line down to the boom just aft of the leech cringle when I use the third reef "in anger".Easily done with a (say) 5 metre 5mm line with a loop at the end. A few turns around the boom and job done.I\'d be grateful for comments. Am I overcomplicating this? Or have I missed something?Thanks. John V1447 Breakaway

 

[Vega1447]

Thanks Alasdair, that is exactly the system that I have!
My question is just re using the reefing (outhaul) line for the
first reef to outhaul the cringle for the third reef.
When I do this using the turning block at aft end of "reefing
bar" (that is usually used for the first reef line), the reefing
(outhaul) line is almost horizontal and doesn't pull the 3rd reef
cringle down onto the boom.
My idea is to use a quick lashing of the 3rd reef (outhaul) line
down to the boom after the 3rd reef is in. Maybe not necessary?

All the best,
John


On 30/10/17 22:46, 'Alisdair'
yahoo@... [AlbinVega] wrote:

 

[lachicavega]

While we're on the topic; I am considering adding a third as well... For those of you with a third reef, how often do you use it? At what wind speed(s) do you feel it necessary to put in your first and second reefs?Thanks!Adam

 

[btfag0s]

Hi John,  As long as you can get some decent leverage on the outhaul it probably doesn’t really matter.If you’re on reef 3 then aesthetics isn’t an issue – the intention will be to control the sail and reduce its area, and make it flat, not make it look pretty. From your description, the extra lashing should be fine, but if you need that amount of reef then I assume the wind is >30kts and you’ll have other priorities. The lashing should make it flatter, but I suspect not by not a lot [ you’re the mathematician – you should be able to work out the effect of a relatively small change on the hypotenuse J ]  The problem I had with deep reefs and strong wind is that the cringles in the middle of the sail changed the shape and looked as though they would tear it.  Alisdair  From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 31 October 2017 20:05To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [AlbinVega] Setting up a third reef  Thanks Alasdair, that is exactly the system that I have!My question is just re using the reefing (outhaul) line for the first reef to outhaul the cringle for the third reef.When I do this using the turning block at aft end of "reefing bar" (that is usually used for the first reef line), the reefing (outhaul) line is almost horizontal and doesn\'t pull the 3rd reef cringle down onto the boom.My idea is to use a quick lashing of the 3rd reef (outhaul) line down to the boom after the  3rd reef is in. Maybe not necessary?All the best,John  On 30/10/17 22:46, \'Alisdair\' yahoo@... [AlbinVega] wrote:

 

[tim_klynn]

I would suspect that if you try to use the first reefing line for the 3rd reef and try to lash the line down to the boom to get the correct tension on the leech, the lashing will want to slip towards the aft end of the boom. You could try lashing through the 3rd reefing cringle to keep the lashing from slipping back, but if you already have a track, why not just buy another block for it and mount it in the correct 3rd reef position? I know if I ever needed a third reef, I would be happy the block was already set up there.If you are thinking of using the 1st reef just as an outhaul to tension the foot and the lashing as what holds the third reef cringle to the boom, that might work.I have also seen sails use webbing with velcro fastening passed through the leech cringle to take the strain off the outhaul.You should check with your sailmaker, but I think on most sails, the mid sail cringles are designed just to bundle up the loose sail, and should not have any strain on them or they might rip out.Tim From: "\'Alisdair\' yahoo@... [AlbinVega]" <AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com> To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 5:21 PM Subject: RE: [AlbinVega] Setting up a third reef
 









Hi John,  As long as you can get some decent leverage on the outhaul it probably doesn’t really matter.If you’re on reef 3 then aesthetics isn’t an issue – the intention will be to control the sail and reduce its area, and make it flat, not make it look pretty. From your description, the extra lashing should be fine, but if you need that amount of reef then I assume the wind is >30kts and you’ll have other priorities. The lashing should make it flatter, but I suspect not by not a lot [ you’re the mathematician – you should be able to work out the effect of a relatively small change on the hypotenuse J ]  The problem I had with deep reefs and strong wind is that the cringles in the middle of the sail changed the shape and looked as though they would tear it.  Alisdair  From: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com] Sent: 31 October 2017 20:05To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [AlbinVega] Setting up a third reef  Thanks Alasdair, that is exactly the system that I have!My question is just re using the reefing (outhaul) line for the first reef to outhaul the cringle for the third reef.When I do this using the turning block at aft end of "reefing bar" (that is usually used for the first reef line), the reefing (outhaul) line is almost horizontal and doesn\'t pull the 3rd reef cringle down onto the boom.My idea is to use a quick lashing of the 3rd reef (outhaul) line down to the boom after the  3rd reef is in. Maybe not necessary?All the best,John  On 30/10/17 22:46, \'Alisdair\' yahoo@... [AlbinVega] wrote:

 

[alaskaflyfish]

I put in my first reef at 15kts. I furl the Genoa 1/3 in at the same time. I never had to use the second reef yet.

 

[Vega1447]

Hi Tim.
Maybe buying a third block is the solution.
But then the question arises; do I install a third "permanent"
reefing line?
If not, fitting one when it is needed would be a bit of an
unnecessary distraction if the weather was turning to ****?
Do Vega sailors keep 3 reefing lines permanently installed?
Thanks,
John V1447 Breakaway


On 31/10/17 23:59, Tim Klynn
tim_klynn@... [AlbinVega] wrote:

 

[Vega1447]

Hello Vega 27'ers,Any reef is quite similar and most boats that rely on a mounted block on the side of the boom creates a vulnerability diminished strength and limited adaptability. Most all racing sailboats rely on tying the reef line to the boom and all the reef line sheaves are at the aft end of the boom. The downward and aft component loads are balanced in that above setup and any vulnerable fastener mounted sheave and padeye is eliminated. Here is a link to the Naval Academy Offshore Sailing training NAVY 44 Boat Information Book (BIB). The procedure is the same for every boat.https://www.usna.edu/Sailing/documents/lectures/navy44/guides/reefing.htmAnd for information on how to tie in a reef line see Figure 3-4 How to Tie a Reef Line 3-8, Page 64https://www.usna.edu/Sailing/documents/lectures/navy44/44MKII/Navy%2044%20MK%20II%20BIB%202017%20Ed%202%20Rev%202.pdf#44 MKII BIB 2017Have a great day!PeteBeat Army !!!

 

[Vega1447]

Thanks Pete - very interesting.
Albin Vega 27's (AFAIK) were manufactured with furling main sail
(boom rotated round its own axis, thus shortening sail.)

So no outhaul and no vang/kicker once partly furled. Which isn't
ideal for sail shape.

A previous owner of my Vega installed "slab" reefing - I think
this is very common on Vegas and other boats of similar size &
date of manufacture.
I've not heard of the setup failing under load - the "reefing
block" mounting screws attaching it to the boom would be the
likeliest failure I suppose?
Have you (or any Vega sailors) encountered this kind of failure?
Thanks,
John V1447 Breakaway


On 03/11/17 20:00, Pete Carrico
carrico@... [AlbinVega] wrote:

 

[petecarrico]

Hello John V1447 Breakaway and all.The first reef line should be used as the 3rd reef line.All reef lines should have messenger eyes in both ends.A good setup for running the 3rd reef is to add a messenger grommet line that runs between the 2nd reef cringle and the 3rd reef cringle. This line is a loop with a tail that you can tie into the messenger eye of the 1st reef line.The 1st /3rd reef line should be long enough to be in the 3rd reef position with the mainsail fully hoisted.The sequence for setting the 3rd reef would start with a full main with the 1st and 2nd reef lines set normally.Once the 2nd reef is set then the 1st reef line is unreeved and tied to that messenger grommet line which is rotated up through the 3rd reef and back down to the boom and tied with the running bowline around the boom.Hopefully this explanation is clear enough.Pete

 

[Vega1447]

Finally took some photos.
See

ThirdReef

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

My sailmaker says (and I think he is right) that I should move
the slider with anchor point and turning block forward on the boom
so that the gap between the third reef clew and the turning block
is about 100 mm/4inches.


I did add a third slider (see
Barton Slab Reefing Kit
for pick of track and sliders).

Unfortunately the track on which the sliders run is too short to
do as the sailmaker recommends - and a new one is expensive.
Is it worth buying a second short track to accommodate the third
slider?

Is the setup in the pics (taken when on home berth on a calm day)
OK?
Thanks
John V1447 Breakaway


On 30/10/17 21:24, John.Kinsella
John.Kinsella@... [AlbinVega] wrote:

 

[Vega1447]

I should have said that:

the sailmaker wants the third reef clew of the mainsail pulled
down more onto the boom - it would certainly look better
I have used the system a few timesin strong-ish (F5-6 &
gusty) winds and made 5-6 knots to windward with a few rolls in
furling headsail.



I suppose I am asking does it matter that 3rd reef clew is not
fully pulled down onto boom?


John V1447 Breakaway


On 21/03/18 08:46, John
John.Kinsella@... [AlbinVega] wrote:

 

[alaskaflyfish]

Nice set-up. I couldn't comment on the addition of a third slider. Play with it for awhile and see what best suits your needs. I also see that you have water that is not frozen, je suis jealous.

 

[tim_klynn]

If it were my boat I would add a third block or find some other way ( a velcro band or loose lashing?) to prevent the clew from lifting. If the clew lifts, the top of the main will twist off and spill, depowering, which might be ok on the third reef.I was on a large boat the had much too much twist on the main, so much so that when we tried to gybe, the boom was upwind of centerline before it crashed over. Luckily, we had a boom brake on, so nothing was damaged. Tim