Set-Up for a CDI FF2 ??

[Cruiser1]

Well, you know how you have all those jobs that need doing on the boat and how some seem such a can af worms that you figure, if you leave them long enough, they will go away? Well they don't.:cry:

I have been trying to take the standard jib off my CDI furler and replace it with the 150% genoa. However a few things don't seem to be adding up.

Sliding Luff up Forestay to adjust turnbuckle
Most people say you have to take out the cotter pin in the side of the extension on top of the black plastic furling drum in order to slide the drum up the luff extrusion. I have about 160mm of 'spare' forestay between the top of the luff cap (offically refered to as the Halyard Top Fitting or HTF) - see photo. I can slide the drum & luff up the forestay enough 'as is', to adjust the turnbuckle, without have to take out any pins. This concens me because, although I have had no problems to date with the furler moving up the forestay whilst under way it appear to be only a matter of time. Am I missing some mechansim that locks the plastic furling drum into the S/S outer cup?

Turnbuckle Type & Pinning it
The CDI site talks about pinning the bolts (threaded rods) in the turnbuckle but mine don't appear to be pinned. The CDI site talks about using "cotter pins", what we down under refer to as "split pins" <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split_pin> . Am I talking the correct language here?

They would have to be mighty small pins as one rod has a 5/64" hole and the other is a fraction less 5/16" but bigger than 1/16"?? - strange as that does not eveen correspond with any standard metric size?? - I suspect about 1.9mm??

The CDI site say "you may NOT use a 3-piece Navtec turnbuckle" but mine is branded Navtec - see photo. I cannot see why the current turnbuckle does not suit as the top threaded rod is roller swaged to the forestay and the bottom threaded rod is a T-rod and is fasted onto the S/S drum with a saddle arrangement. Having done a web search mine appears to be Navtec part no. 673-1/4-3 on the Navtec website as follows: http://www.americanriggingsupply.com/Navtec_Turnbuckles.pdf . The barrel is stamp on the middle bar with 'Navtec' on one side and the letter 'A' on the other side - no other ID markings.

I am unsure weather CDI mean 'don't use a Navtec turnbuckle' or 'don't use a 3-piece turnbuckle' and in either case I cannot undestand why?

 

[Doug J]

http://www.sailcdi.com/sailpdf/FF2 manual 4.04.pdf


I have a CDI FF2, bought it new, and installed it myself. The furling drum just sits inside the metal cup.

You can change your sail with the mast up, no need to disassemble. There is an opening in the sail feed slot, just like on your mast. Just slide the bolt rope in/out. You’ll need to attach a messenger line to the internal halyard when you remove the sail, so you can reach it.

There is a clevis pin, with cotter ring, that locks the furling drum to the luff extrusion. If you need to access the turnbuckle, and you don’t have enough room at the top of the forestay to slide the luff with drum up the forestay, you would have to remove the clevis pin to slide the drum up the extrusion.

Use cotter rings in those holes of the threaded parts of the turnbuckle, to prevent the turnbuckle from accidentally unscrewing. I’d say the turnbuckle you have is okay. It’s been on the boat working for quite a while right? When they say "you may NOT use a 3-piece Navtec turnbuckle", they probably mean a different model type, which probably wouldn’t fit inside the drum.

 

[justsomeguy]

Yep, I think the turnbuckle is okay too, but there may be a problem at the other end of the headstay. CDI wants toggles at both ends for their furlers.
Definitely, cotter the turnbuckle. The rings should also go around one of the turnbuckle's sides, and still must not interfere with furler rotation.

 

[Doug J]

Yep, I think the turnbuckle is okay too, but there may be a problem at the other end of the headstay. CDI wants toggles at both ends for their furlers.
Definitely, cotter the turnbuckle. The rings should also go around one of the turnbuckle's sides, and still must not interfere with furler rotation.

Good point! I'm not sure I like the top arrangement. Refer to the diagram on page 5 of the CDI FF2 manual.

Here's how mine is on top, used a swage eye, which the halyard top fitting rotates on instead of the cable.

 

[justsomeguy]

Here's my top fitting, not quite what CDI wants, I know.

 

[Doug J]

Here's my top fitting, not quite what CDI wants, I know.

You can add a D shackle to it, (that's the way mine is) and you'll then allow for movement in all directions. I think the idea is to reduce stress on the cable and attachment points, while stepping the mast.

When I trailer mine I keep the furler straight along the mast, laying flat. But while stepping, the furler falls to the side, and can potentially put stress on the top connection. If that happens over and over, you could start to break cable strands, or bend hardware.

Some people trailer theirs with the furler laying on the deck, and the weight of it pulls the top connection to the side. I think that's why they say to use a toggle.

 

[justsomeguy]

I just keep a close eye on the condition of the wire. I do allow the furler to fall alongside when stepping, but I don't think that causes any real stresses needing worry. The angle of pull isn't bad at all at the top. We probaby ought to ask CDI "why", I guess.

 

[Paul Brinkley]

Definitely take some steps to keep the turnbuckle from accidentally unscrewing itself. My S had the furler on it when I got it, and it always worked just fine.
Then on a trip in my third summer, we had just raised the main when everything came crashing down- the turnbuckle had unscrewed. We were fortunate- my wife was holding the furler line at the time and put enough drag on it that the mast came down slowly enough not to damage anything. We lost the thrust washer out of the furler (had to order a new one) and we sheared the pop rivets holding the gooseneck to the mast. Once back home, I ordered the washer, and when it came in, I reassembled the furler (wired the turnbuckle this time) and put new pop rivets in the gooseneck, and we were back in business. We were lucky that 1) no one was hurt, and 2) there was no significent damage to anything. So, yes, secure that turnbuckle! -Paul

 

[jjsbiggs]

CDI toggle

You need a toggle at the top and bottom to prevent stress on the cable at the swage. The cable can have broken strands inside that you will not see until it fails. Do a search on this site and you will see where people have had their cables fail. I just talked with the sail loft this week about this and they said the cable needs to be able to move in both directions.

 

[justsomeguy]

Definitely take some steps to keep the turnbuckle from accidentally unscrewing itself. My S had the furler on it when I got it, and it always worked just fine.
Then on a trip in my third summer, we had just raised the main when everything came crashing down- the turnbuckle had unscrewed. We were fortunate- my wife was holding the furler line at the time and put enough drag on it that the mast came down slowly enough not to damage anything. We lost the thrust washer out of the furler (had to order a new one) and we sheared the pop rivets holding the gooseneck to the mast. Once back home, I ordered the washer, and when it came in, I reassembled the furler (wired the turnbuckle this time) and put new pop rivets in the gooseneck, and we were back in business. We were lucky that 1) no one was hurt, and 2) there was no significent damage to anything. So, yes, secure that turnbuckle! -Paul

Pop rivets? POP RIVETS? Now that's scary!

 

[justsomeguy]

You need a toggle at the top and bottom to prevent stress on the cable at the swage. The cable can have broken strands inside that you will not see until it fails. Do a search on this site and you will see where people have had their cables fail. I just talked with the sail loft this week about this and they said the cable needs to be able to move in both directions.

"The cable need to be able to move in both directions".

Can you clarify that?

 

[justsomeguy]

You need a toggle at the top and bottom to prevent stress on the cable at the swage. The cable can have broken strands inside that you will not see until it fails. Do a search on this site and you will see where people have had their cables fail. I just talked with the sail loft this week about this and they said the cable needs to be able to move in both directions.

Not that I don't believe you, but "top of headstay" failures? "Top swage"? Is that the term I should use in my search?

 

[Doug J]

You said;

Here's my top fitting, not quite what CDI wants, I know.

Why not just add a D shackle? Effectively you'd have the movement of a toggle, for about $5.

 

[justsomeguy]

Why not just add a D shackle? Effectively you'd have the movement of a toggle, for about $5.[/quote]

Because I don't see any real difference in applied stress?

 

[justsomeguy]

Besides calling my insurance agent, I guess I'll try to clear this up with CDI tomorrow. Get ready for a new forestay!

 

[Cruiser1]

Thanks very much everyone for all your very useful information - takes a bit of stress out of the situation. Sorry I haven't replied earlier today but Easter Sunday morning, eldest daughter over visiting, hot cross buns and all that - plus of course reading, measuring and digesting all this stuff.

Thank you all for confirming the need for ring dings on the threaded shafts inside the turnbuckle - glad I took it apart as it was probably only a matter of time before the whole thing unscrewed with lots of resultant damage to boat and crew. I was a bit horrified when I saw there was nothing to stop those threads screwing right out of the turnbuckle.

.........There is a clevis pin, with cotter ring, that locks the furling drum to the luff extrusion..........

Yes, thanks Doug, mine is fitted with a Split Cotter (Split Pin to us guys) and I can see it taking a lump out of a sail or worse still a leg. Will replace with a clevis and ring ding.

......I’d say the turnbuckle you have is okay. It’s been on the boat working for quite a while right? When they say "you may NOT use a 3-piece Navtec turnbuckle", they probably mean a different model type, which probably wouldn’t fit inside the drum.........

Yes that is my take on it also, but I will email CDI just to confirm it and ask about their reasoning for the toggles whilst at it. From the records I have I think the CDI was put on my boat in about 2001 - definitely a post 1999 model FF2 from CDI identification info - and yes, its been working very well to date. If I have identified the Navtec turnbuckle correctly then it is designed for a breaking load 50% greater than that of the 1/8" forestay wire.

.....Definitely, cotter the turnbuckle. The rings should also go around one of the turnbuckle's sides, and still must not interfere with furler rotation.

Thanks for the idea of the ring dings. This was a real dilema for me as the only split cotters I could get in 5/65" dia. where far too short in length to be able to wrap around the turnbuckle body and in any case would not last long with all the bending back and forth. Problem solved.

Pop rivets? POP RIVETS? Now that's scary!

Yes apparently that is/was stock from the factory - "all aluminium" pop rivets. I remember Sumner taking his apart once and finding most the the rivets where about ready to let go!!

 

[justsomeguy]

That's crazy-talk, pop rivets. Please trust me. Not on a hound. Can't it be through-bolted?

Aluminium.

 

[Cruiser1]

Here's how mine is on top, used a swage eye, which the halyard top fitting rotates on instead of the cable.

Couple of questions Doug. Is that the old headsail halyard on the pulley attached to the bail above the hounds on your boat?

Also, whilst I am at it. from memory you have a lever fitted to the bottom of your headstay - picture below - not sure if that is your boat in the first photo or someone elses Doug - if so hope you don't mind me using it. I trust also that the author of the other diagram does not mind me using it for explanation. What is the name/brand/model of that lever?. It looks like a good idea I can quickly adapt to my rig.

The other way is to go the whole way like Sumner and use a longer Johnson type lever and move the hounds up the mast. A lot more $$ but may perhaps do that one day when replacing rigging. However, for now, your lever looks like a good practical idea to make rigging and unrigging much easier. Always a time balance/limitation between working on the boat and sailing it. Desperate to get the boat back on the water and starting using it whilst the kids are still interested and Dad has enough energy left to actually organise it!!

 

[Cruiser1]

That's crazy-talk, pop rivets. Please trust me. Not on a hound. Can't it be through-bolted?

Aluminium.

I think Paul was probably refering to the boom goosneck on the mast getting broken when the mast came down - that's the one that hand the aluminium rivets - reminds me I must check mine sometime and at least put in some S/S or monel rivets. Yes, definitely a bolt through the hounds!!

 

[Doug J]

Couple of questions Doug. Is that the old headsail halyard on the pulley attached to the bail above the hounds on your boat?

Also, whilst I am at it. from memory you have a lever fitted to the bottom of your headstay - picture below - not sure if that is your boat in the first photo or someone elses Doug - if so hope you don't mind me using it. I trust also that the author of the other diagram does not mind me using it for explanation. What is the name/brand/model of that lever?. It looks like a good idea I can quickly adapt to my rig.

The other way is to go the whole way like Sumner and use a longer Johnson type lever and move the hounds up the mast. A lot more $$ but may perhaps do that one day when replacing rigging. However, for now, your lever looks like a good practical idea to make rigging and unrigging much easier. Always a time balance/limitation between working on the boat and sailing it. Desperate to get the boat back on the water and starting using it whilst the kids are still interested and Dad has enough energy left to actually organise it!!

Yes, the black line is the headsail halyard, which is unused for that, since I have the CDI furler, but it's available for the Spinnaker. I always attach it to the bow pulpit, for added safety. I added that bail above the hounds. The other white line I use to pull up the Genoa sock.

That head stay lever is not mine, but it looks to me like part of a shroud adjuster. My boat has those for the shrouds, and the backstay. I was thinking of trying that myself, less costly than a Johnson Lever.

I sure hope people don’t mind the use of their pictures, if so I’m in trouble; I do it all the time.