Set me straight on this "bluewater" talk

Aug 20, 2010
1,399
Oday 27 Oak Orchard
I am enjoying this discussion among my fellow sailors. Jackdaw with his newer models that are cutting edge like nothing we have seen before. With advances in composite technology these boats are rocketing around the world in such amazing times. Think Vendee Globe and Volvo Ocean. This is allowing sailors to outrun storms that those of us with older boats will have to weather. Crossing times are shortened so matters of comfort and seakindly handling can be trimmed where those like Zeehag enjoy the bulletproof designs that offer a more serene passagemaking that provide greater creature comfort. This offers a full gamut of options. It is important to remember there are no guarantees in life and fewer when venturing offshore. Obviously if the destination is high on the scale of purpose then a faster boat is the choice. If the journey experience with long layover times in exotic ports then the comfortable cruiser is a better choice. It comes down to what gets your life in high gear. Too many are looking for the safe guaranteed life and will never understand our passion for adventure.
 

BobM

.
Jun 10, 2004
3,269
S2 9.2A Winthrop, MA
My friend was rescued off the Almesian, a story told in Overboard, by Tougias. Solid blue water boat...but her experienced Captain still made a series of bad decisions he unfortunately did not live to regret. He ran in front of a storm, didn't ship the dead lights and a forty foot rogue wave and twenty foot seas did the rest.
 
Jan 8, 2020
48
brentswain 31 31 twin keeler Heriot Bay BC
Here is a hatch conversion which can take a rollover without leaking a drop.If it went all the way from a bottom to the top of the original opening, it would be just as big an opening as the original "sliding hatch and drop board" foolishness, which round the world racers have abandoned long ago.
A cupola on top would make it bigger and easier to use than the sliding hatch, by a wide margin.
Somewhere, I have a picture of around the world racers with waist deep , solid water in the cockpit, burying the main hatch. No way would a drop board or doors survive that, or keep water out .
I have read of a 34 footer in the N Atlantic having a wave smash in the drop board, and sinking the boat quickly.
If the lock is inside reached thru the vent ,it would also be extremely resistant to burglers.
 

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Likes: Will Gilmore
Jun 9, 2008
1,771
- -- -Bayfield
There are plenty of boats built in the 70's that would suffice for ocean travel and as mentioned, certainly the Cal 40 is one of them. But, if you truly are going to sail offshore, then you want a boat with that A "ocean" classification as mentioned above. That means the boat is designed for extended voyages where wave lengths of 4m and more can be realized and force 8 Beaufort scale conditions can exist. To accomplish this, the boat is built to better specifications with better hull to deck joints, more substantial windows and hatches, cockpits that are safer with higher bridge decks, robust companionway doors, larger scuppers, etc. Engines are more than adequate for extreme conditions and fuel tanks are larger so you can motor greater distances when the wind isn't blowing. Your water supply is larger as well. Interiors are designed for live-aboard use where you have places to stow needed items that don't collect in the living areas of the boat. Hull and deck construction is well done, with safety in mind such as having stanchions that support lifelines that can withstand the abuse of someone crashing into them. Proper hand holds inside and out so you can make your way around the deck and inside in heavy seaways. The rig and standing rigging are adequate for offshore use as well as the sails and sail handling equipment. Winches and other deck hardware are adequate and you have enough for all the tasks at hand. Many production boats keep the price down with smaller engines, fewer winches to do more things, sometimes even one pump to accomplish many tasks selected by shutting valves and opening others. I have written lots on this before, but people don't like to search old posts. They just keep asking away. Lots of people have contributed lot of good (and bad) information in this forum site. Safety gear is another thing you need to consider for offshore use. Someone mentioned Merlin. Well, that boat was designed for down wind racing, which is what the Trans Pac is all about. The original mast off of Merlin actually ended up in my boat yard and I retro'd it for an Eva Holman 52 (or was it 53?). Then electronics for navigation is to be considered. All of this stuff is based on your budget, but also you have to prepare yourself for such voyaging and passage making. You can get your ass kicked on the open ocean. Not for the feint of heart. If it is coastal cruising you think you will do, then classification A or B and even C works depending on the conditions you will sail in. Coastal cruising usually means, for the most part, but not always, that you can duck in somewhere if things turn bad. Of course watching your weather window is germane, but if you are long off shore, that can change in a heartbeat. So, this is just a beginning - stuff to think about. Somebody also mentioned crossing the ocean in an O'Day 27. Sure it can be done, but not the boat of my choice. My late friend, Gerry Speiss sailed a 10' plywood boat he built across the ocean too. But, he almost went nuts doing it and I like a bit more comfort. I've done some extreme sailing on an Express 27 (which is a very well built boat) and survived (actually had a blast), but I've also done offshore stuff on a 47' ketch (just to name a few). The larger boat was really comfy and fishing off of the back deck behind the mizzen (it was a center cockpit) made for a great place to skin and clean fish without getting all the nasty stuff in the cockpit or living area of the boat. It's all in what you want to do and how comfortable and safe you wish to be. Follow your bliss while you are young and still can do it, but be sensible about it.
 
Jan 8, 2020
48
brentswain 31 31 twin keeler Heriot Bay BC
A friend ,with a lot of sea miles behind him said " I've seen a lot of shoulders wrecked by overhead handrails ,but none from handrails at shoulder height.
 

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,772
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
There are plenty of boats built in the 70's that would suffice for ocean travel and as mentioned, certainly the Cal 40 is one of them. But, if you truly are going to sail offshore, then you want a boat with that A "ocean" classification as mentioned above. That means the boat is designed for extended voyages where wave lengths of 4m and more can be realized and force 8 Beaufort scale conditions can exist. To accomplish this, the boat is built to better specifications with better hull to deck joints, more substantial windows and hatches, cockpits that are safer with higher bridge decks, robust companionway doors, larger scuppers, etc. Engines are more than adequate for extreme conditions and fuel tanks are larger so you can motor greater distances when the wind isn't blowing. Your water supply is larger as well. Interiors are designed for live-aboard use where you have places to stow needed items that don't collect in the living areas of the boat. Hull and deck construction is well done, with safety in mind such as having stanchions that support lifelines that can withstand the abuse of someone crashing into them. Proper hand holds inside and out so you can make your way around the deck and inside in heavy seaways. The rig and standing rigging are adequate for offshore use as well as the sails and sail handling equipment. Winches and other deck hardware are adequate and you have enough for all the tasks at hand. Many production boats keep the price down with smaller engines, fewer winches to do more things, sometimes even one pump to accomplish many tasks selected by shutting valves and opening others. I have written lots on this before, but people don't like to search old posts. They just keep asking away. Lots of people have contributed lot of good (and bad) information in this forum site. Safety gear is another thing you need to consider for offshore use. Someone mentioned Merlin. Well, that boat was designed for down wind racing, which is what the Trans Pac is all about. The original mast off of Merlin actually ended up in my boat yard and I retro'd it for an Eva Holman 52 (or was it 53?). Then electronics for navigation is to be considered. All of this stuff is based on your budget, but also you have to prepare yourself for such voyaging and passage making. You can get your ass kicked on the open ocean. Not for the feint of heart. If it is coastal cruising you think you will do, then classification A or B and even C works depending on the conditions you will sail in. Coastal cruising usually means, for the most part, but not always, that you can duck in somewhere if things turn bad. Of course watching your weather window is germane, but if you are long off shore, that can change in a heartbeat. So, this is just a beginning - stuff to think about. Somebody also mentioned crossing the ocean in an O'Day 27. Sure it can be done, but not the boat of my choice. My late friend, Gerry Speiss sailed a 10' plywood boat he built across the ocean too. But, he almost went nuts doing it and I like a bit more comfort. I've done some extreme sailing on an Express 27 (which is a very well built boat) and survived (actually had a blast), but I've also done offshore stuff on a 47' ketch (just to name a few). The larger boat was really comfy and fishing off of the back deck behind the mizzen (it was a center cockpit) made for a great place to skin and clean fish without getting all the nasty stuff in the cockpit or living area of the boat. It's all in what you want to do and how comfortable and safe you wish to be. Follow your bliss while you are young and still can do it, but be sensible about it.
I found this post to be very interesting. When speaking of boats designed to 'sail the seas' safely, I can't help thinking that the boat is only a part of the formula.
For instance, James Wharram designed a series of catamarans expressly for ocean cruising. They could easily be home built by a complete amateur with materials pretty much available at any lumber yard. Some were even held together with lashings. I think it safe to say that hundreds of Wharram's cats, in a variety of forms, have safely crossed oceans and most before "weather windows" and weather routers.
Since I don't want to cause a riot, suffice it to say there are a goodly number of boats theoretically designed to do ocean passages that are commonly 'bashed' as being of inferior construction, that have also successfully circumnavigated.
Then you have the Oyster that sank off Spain from a loss of hull integrity. An Oyster for crying out loud! The dream yacht of so many and one of the highest quality ocean crossing yachts being built, or rather were being built.
So, you do your research and choose the boat that makes you feel secure, but if you don't understand the environment you are heading off into, it doesn't matter two hoots what your boat is 'designed' for.
 
Last edited:
Jul 1, 1998
3,062
Hunter Legend 35 Poulsbo/Semiahmoo WA
This is a six year old thread.
Zzzzzz..... (Judy tells it like it is)

The original poster never came back.
This happens every once in a while when someone posts a question about a "blue water boat". In this case the poster never returned, but left everybody talking to each other.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,744
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
The original poster never came back.

That's what sailing away is all about , isn't it?
Gary
Ah! But did the OP not come back because he sailed away and is having the time of his life? Or, did he choose the wrong boat to sail away in?
:what:
Let's hope he's just out there having fun and making us all jealous.

-Will (Dragonfly)
 
Jul 19, 2013
384
Pearson 31-2 Boston
Apr 8, 2010
1,949
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
Thanks for posting this. All the details about what worked and what did not are very helpful.
:(
Regarding (just) one facet of the story: the boat itself -- Catalina 36 -especially the mk1 - are known know for being rather flexible in a seaway. Not to imply that they do not stay together, but this 'flexibility' has a consequence. Over a decade ago I helped the owner deliver an early Cat-42 up the Washington coast on a rough day. We were headed for the Straits and Neah Bay, and then East to Pt Angeles.
After spending all day motoring north with a bit of main unrolled for stabilizing the motion we decided that it was best to stop at Grays Harbor, for a total day's run of only about 50 miles. Wind was continuously over 20 and seas were short and about 5 feet, on the nose. Green water over the housetop about every 7 seconds. Sunny day and we were dry in our foulies, and nothing broke. However..... that hull and deck were flexing a lot and water was seeping in around the sealant on nearly every single hatch and port. All were well dogged. Not a *lot* of water, but still rather eye opening to see all the constant drips.
My opinion, and I am unanimous in that, is that the design and engineering in the high end boats like Ericson's are worth a lot more if going off shore at all .:waycool: