We have a 1997 Jabsco manual toilet on board. Lately, it seems to be weakening in terms of the strength it has to pump out the bowl. (Bringing in rinse water seems good and strong). It is probably time for a rebuild/replace. I went to the marine store and found the proper service kit ($45) with all kinds of parts for the pump portion. Then I got home and read my BoatUS flyer and there is the whole head unit on sale for $105. So, my questions are these: Is a slow weakening of the pump strength an indication that its time to replace? Which is easier, doing a rebuild on the pump or replacing the whole unit. (Could replacing the whole thing with new be as easy as a few mounting bolts and two hose attachments)? And finally, if the whole unit is already 5 years old (light use), how much more life can be expected?
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Peggie's Goin' to Kill Me, But..
I always rebuild. I replace the joker valve about two to three times a year. I rebuild the unit once a year. It's about a 45 minute job. IMHO, easier than replacing. I have replaced the pump units themselves after five to eight years on average. Lately, I have reduced the overhaul time and am just disassembling the unit and lubing using a teflon grease a couple of times a year. But, I always keep a spare O/H kit just in case. Once, I had to replace the base since it was cracked. This experience is with four Jabscos over about 15 or more years. Pretty heavy use all year. The key is maintenance. FWIW, I'd bet the joker valve is bad. I would try it first. Take about a gallon of fresh water and pump it through just before disassembly. Reduces the ick factor materially. Now, having said that, I have obviously spent more in a few years than just buying a new unit every few years. But, for ME (and only me), it is less hassle. Good luck. Rick D.
I always rebuild. I replace the joker valve about two to three times a year. I rebuild the unit once a year. It's about a 45 minute job. IMHO, easier than replacing. I have replaced the pump units themselves after five to eight years on average. Lately, I have reduced the overhaul time and am just disassembling the unit and lubing using a teflon grease a couple of times a year. But, I always keep a spare O/H kit just in case. Once, I had to replace the base since it was cracked. This experience is with four Jabscos over about 15 or more years. Pretty heavy use all year. The key is maintenance. FWIW, I'd bet the joker valve is bad. I would try it first. Take about a gallon of fresh water and pump it through just before disassembly. Reduces the ick factor materially. Now, having said that, I have obviously spent more in a few years than just buying a new unit every few years. But, for ME (and only me), it is less hassle. Good luck. Rick D.
No Rick, I'm not gonna kill you...
Only note that you've spent far more on 4 Jabsco toilets over 15 years than it would have cost you to just keep 'em well lubricated and replace 'em every 5 years when they need more than lubrication. It's not necessary to disassemble the pump to lubricate it with teflong grease...just take the top off, put a healthy squirt in it, pump a few times to spread the grease all over the pump cylinder wall...and it's done. Put the top back on. And I don't think anybody knows what a joker valve actually does, 'cuz it seems everybody blames it for any symptom any toilet develops...even holding tanks filling up due to leaving the overboard seacock open. A joker valve has just ONE function: it's just a one-way valve that prevents backflow from flooding the toilet. And the operative word there is "flood"...even a brand new joker valve can't prevent slow seepage. It's not even in the pump, it's in the toilet discharge hose fitting...so it can't possibly have anything to do with pumping efficiency unless there's a clog in it, which rarely happens, and would prevent ANYthing from going down. It shouldn't need replacement more than once a year...not even that often unless the "lips" have stretched open more than a centimeter and/or have become encrusted with minerals. Since Hugh's toilet seems to be working efficiently to bring flush water in, I suspect his problem may not be in the toilet at all, especially if he's feeling any backpressure--in which case, the first place to look is the tank vent thru-hull for a blockage. If there's no backpressure, there's a good chance there's sea water mineral buildup in the head discharge hose, reducing the diameter and restricting flow. I've seen it reduce a 1.5" hose to 1/2" in just a couple of years. Checking for that will require taking the discharge hose off the toilet to see what the inside of it looks like. If the joker has never been replaced in the 5 years he's had the boat, I'd say yes, it does need replacing by now whether it's mineral encrusted or not. But only if it IS encrusted could it be the cause of his problem...and the hose will be too. If that is the problem, white vinegar will dissolve the minerals--although it will take several doses of it over several days to do it. A cupful down the toilet once a week will prevent the problem from recurring. Muriatic acid will do it in one treatment, but needs to be handled VERY carefully. Muriatic acid is NOT a preventative, only a cure for severe cases. Before rebuilding or replacing (with a 5 year old Jabsco, I'd just replace but it's his choice), I'd eliminate those two possibilities. I'd also lubricate the toilet as I described above with SuperLube--the thick teflon grease in a tube, not the spray or liquid.
Only note that you've spent far more on 4 Jabsco toilets over 15 years than it would have cost you to just keep 'em well lubricated and replace 'em every 5 years when they need more than lubrication. It's not necessary to disassemble the pump to lubricate it with teflong grease...just take the top off, put a healthy squirt in it, pump a few times to spread the grease all over the pump cylinder wall...and it's done. Put the top back on. And I don't think anybody knows what a joker valve actually does, 'cuz it seems everybody blames it for any symptom any toilet develops...even holding tanks filling up due to leaving the overboard seacock open. A joker valve has just ONE function: it's just a one-way valve that prevents backflow from flooding the toilet. And the operative word there is "flood"...even a brand new joker valve can't prevent slow seepage. It's not even in the pump, it's in the toilet discharge hose fitting...so it can't possibly have anything to do with pumping efficiency unless there's a clog in it, which rarely happens, and would prevent ANYthing from going down. It shouldn't need replacement more than once a year...not even that often unless the "lips" have stretched open more than a centimeter and/or have become encrusted with minerals. Since Hugh's toilet seems to be working efficiently to bring flush water in, I suspect his problem may not be in the toilet at all, especially if he's feeling any backpressure--in which case, the first place to look is the tank vent thru-hull for a blockage. If there's no backpressure, there's a good chance there's sea water mineral buildup in the head discharge hose, reducing the diameter and restricting flow. I've seen it reduce a 1.5" hose to 1/2" in just a couple of years. Checking for that will require taking the discharge hose off the toilet to see what the inside of it looks like. If the joker has never been replaced in the 5 years he's had the boat, I'd say yes, it does need replacing by now whether it's mineral encrusted or not. But only if it IS encrusted could it be the cause of his problem...and the hose will be too. If that is the problem, white vinegar will dissolve the minerals--although it will take several doses of it over several days to do it. A cupful down the toilet once a week will prevent the problem from recurring. Muriatic acid will do it in one treatment, but needs to be handled VERY carefully. Muriatic acid is NOT a preventative, only a cure for severe cases. Before rebuilding or replacing (with a 5 year old Jabsco, I'd just replace but it's his choice), I'd eliminate those two possibilities. I'd also lubricate the toilet as I described above with SuperLube--the thick teflon grease in a tube, not the spray or liquid.
Speaking of Jokers, Peg..
.. the Jabsco units are triple-billed and seem a bit anemic. I have had them reverse twice when pumping against (I suppose) a small obstruction, and after no more than a half-year of use, seem to weaken enough to let some back flow on the intake stroke, requiring more action and dry-bowl strokes to clear. Not huge, but annoying, even if only a couple of minutes to replace. I don't remember a WC having the same reaction. Point is, do you have an opinion on this piece? There seem to be other manufacturer's valves that would fit and may try one. BTW, my overboard side from the y-valve was totally crystaled and unuseable. Muriatic acid did the job opening it up again. I now use vinegar every few months and flush a few quarts of fresh water through both systems when I leave. BTW, the reason I take the pump apart to grease it is twofold. First, I clean and coat all the gaskets and inspect them. Second, I have had several bad replacement gaskets, so if its working and not cracking, I let the old one stay in. When I do replace it, I keep a cleaned old set in addition to a new OH kit just in case. Jeesh, maybe I give these things a lot more attention than they deserve! Maybe the joker is me! But, I rarely have a problem due to mechanical failures. Rick D.
.. the Jabsco units are triple-billed and seem a bit anemic. I have had them reverse twice when pumping against (I suppose) a small obstruction, and after no more than a half-year of use, seem to weaken enough to let some back flow on the intake stroke, requiring more action and dry-bowl strokes to clear. Not huge, but annoying, even if only a couple of minutes to replace. I don't remember a WC having the same reaction. Point is, do you have an opinion on this piece? There seem to be other manufacturer's valves that would fit and may try one. BTW, my overboard side from the y-valve was totally crystaled and unuseable. Muriatic acid did the job opening it up again. I now use vinegar every few months and flush a few quarts of fresh water through both systems when I leave. BTW, the reason I take the pump apart to grease it is twofold. First, I clean and coat all the gaskets and inspect them. Second, I have had several bad replacement gaskets, so if its working and not cracking, I let the old one stay in. When I do replace it, I keep a cleaned old set in addition to a new OH kit just in case. Jeesh, maybe I give these things a lot more attention than they deserve! Maybe the joker is me! But, I rarely have a problem due to mechanical failures. Rick D.
Joker valves are one size fits all
Try another brand--the style has a single slit, not the cross. Vinegar only ever few months? That may dissolve some of the minderal build-up, but it doesn't do much to prevent it. Try a cupful once a week, after the fresh water.
Try another brand--the style has a single slit, not the cross. Vinegar only ever few months? That may dissolve some of the minderal build-up, but it doesn't do much to prevent it. Try a cupful once a week, after the fresh water.
Not the vent...
Peggy- thanks for the reply. Its not the vent, checked that. Its really still operating fine, just a little slugish on the pump out, seems I get the call more often lately with "Hugh, come here". I usually can clear it by switching back and forth between wet and dry strokes until things get moving. I do know what the joker valve is, as its sitting on the desk in front of me. (But I didn't know three days ago
What you said about restricted flow due to mineral buildup makes sense. I left a quart of vinegar in there for a couple hours; I'll try the cup full a few more times, and a good shot of grease, and see if things improve.
Peggy- thanks for the reply. Its not the vent, checked that. Its really still operating fine, just a little slugish on the pump out, seems I get the call more often lately with "Hugh, come here". I usually can clear it by switching back and forth between wet and dry strokes until things get moving. I do know what the joker valve is, as its sitting on the desk in front of me. (But I didn't know three days ago
What you said about restricted flow due to mineral buildup makes sense. I left a quart of vinegar in there for a couple hours; I'll try the cup full a few more times, and a good shot of grease, and see if things improve.
The Dead Speaks..
..you need to leave the vinegar in for a longer period, like overnight, for it to work, and if its bad, possibly a couple of applications. Assume you replaced the joker. There are two other possibilities, although not too likely from the discussion. There is a weighted flapper valve on the bottom of the pump. They changed the design a few years ago, from a bonded brass weight to an encapsulated one. The bonded weight would sometimes come loose, but I think that was a go/no-go deal and not what you describe. However, I did have the gasket that controls the valving at the top of the pump get a slight tear in the flappers that would not fully control the switch from wet to dry. Again, that too is unlikely, but it can contribute to sloppy operation. I wouldn't check either of these unless the course you are on runs out of water. The Dead.
..you need to leave the vinegar in for a longer period, like overnight, for it to work, and if its bad, possibly a couple of applications. Assume you replaced the joker. There are two other possibilities, although not too likely from the discussion. There is a weighted flapper valve on the bottom of the pump. They changed the design a few years ago, from a bonded brass weight to an encapsulated one. The bonded weight would sometimes come loose, but I think that was a go/no-go deal and not what you describe. However, I did have the gasket that controls the valving at the top of the pump get a slight tear in the flappers that would not fully control the switch from wet to dry. Again, that too is unlikely, but it can contribute to sloppy operation. I wouldn't check either of these unless the course you are on runs out of water. The Dead.
If this keeps up,
we'll have to renamethe Head Mistress forum "the Dead Zone." Meanwhile... Arise, Rick...you ain't dead yet...not even on life support...yet. In fact, you may be the only person in the history of boating--including me!--who ever OVER-maintained a toilet (it's only cost you at least twice as much money as you needed to spend, but that's beside the point). If you tell me you also read directions BEFORE all else fails, I'll recommend to the Pope that you be canonized (that's "canonized" with one "n"...it has nothing to do with cannons).
we'll have to renamethe Head Mistress forum "the Dead Zone." Meanwhile... Arise, Rick...you ain't dead yet...not even on life support...yet. In fact, you may be the only person in the history of boating--including me!--who ever OVER-maintained a toilet (it's only cost you at least twice as much money as you needed to spend, but that's beside the point). If you tell me you also read directions BEFORE all else fails, I'll recommend to the Pope that you be canonized (that's "canonized" with one "n"...it has nothing to do with cannons).
Service kit has old style brass thing
The service kit I got has the replacement with the old style brass weight on the flapper. That, too, still in the bag. The other symptoms I have (which I didn't think were related) is that I get a drop or two of spray out the top of the pump once in a while. The gasket there is failing. And, the wet/dry switch seems to be getting harder to move all the way to DRY, and then pops out of DRY position on occasion. I just push it back into DRY and it works. All these things together make me think that rebuilding the pump will help, but perhaps the other seals and gaskets will be failing shortly. The other thought I had was that if the gasket at the top of the pump is failing, perhaps the piston motion is no longer exactly straight in the cylinder, and I may be slowly scoring grooves in it, which I assume is eventually a fatal condition for the unit.
The service kit I got has the replacement with the old style brass weight on the flapper. That, too, still in the bag. The other symptoms I have (which I didn't think were related) is that I get a drop or two of spray out the top of the pump once in a while. The gasket there is failing. And, the wet/dry switch seems to be getting harder to move all the way to DRY, and then pops out of DRY position on occasion. I just push it back into DRY and it works. All these things together make me think that rebuilding the pump will help, but perhaps the other seals and gaskets will be failing shortly. The other thought I had was that if the gasket at the top of the pump is failing, perhaps the piston motion is no longer exactly straight in the cylinder, and I may be slowly scoring grooves in it, which I assume is eventually a fatal condition for the unit.
Hugh, replace the toilet.
Rebuilding won't fix the failed dry/flush valve...by the time you buy that plus a rebuild kit, you'll spend at least 75% of the cost of a whole new toilet...with no guarantee that it'll work any better or that something else won't break. The average lifespan of a Jabsco manual toilet is about 5 years...you're there.
Rebuilding won't fix the failed dry/flush valve...by the time you buy that plus a rebuild kit, you'll spend at least 75% of the cost of a whole new toilet...with no guarantee that it'll work any better or that something else won't break. The average lifespan of a Jabsco manual toilet is about 5 years...you're there.
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