Senate bill to stop government weather reports

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Mar 4, 2005
7
- - New Port Richey, FL
Rick Santorum's interest

He's on record for saying that he introduced the bill because several of the private weather companies that would benefit from it are in his district.
 
Feb 15, 2004
735
Hunter 37.5 Balt/Annapolis/New Bern
Landau...I don't understand.

If you don't want to turn this thread and/or forum into a political discussion, why do you insist on debating the politics of it, specifically Santorum's position? You've already diluted any meaning to your posts and inflamed the dicussion here at HOW. I, for one, don't want to hear anyting from or about Santorum or anybody else on Capital Hill on this site. Take it elsewhere. Phil...I think it's time for this one to go, in its entirety.
 
F

Franklin

Chill out

I don't see anything bad about this thread. We are just debating facts and opinions of legislation that affects sailors. I wouldn't say Rick has to go, because if he does, then I would say 70% of the other congressmen have to go too. It's a fact of our government that congressmen represent the people in their district and also need money contributed to their campains. So a congressman in PA may be doing what is best for his people but not the rest of the country and therefor, it should be defeated. However, there is always that chance of big money influencing votes by contributions to campains. With that being said, I also don't think the congressman is going to send out a written document stating that he is working to remove something that is free even if that is his intent. One thing is for sure, they know it's a delicate stance and therefore wouldn't give a verba response. Had to make sure it was a pre-written response that has been analized for weaknesses. That usually isn't a good sign.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
The original post on this subject is WRONG ....

What Sanotorum is trying to do is RETURN the NSW/NOAA BACK to the services (for free) that existed between 1991 and 2004. A careful examination of the facts (if you are able to understand plain english) is found in the following transcript: http://santorum.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=PressOffice.View&ContentRecord_id=1219&Region_id=0&Issue_id=0&CFID=12399164&CFTOKEN=39260958 AND http://src.senate.gov/public/_files/radio/santorumNewsConf6_9_05.mp3 ----------------- Fair Forecasts May 6, 2005 - For Immediate Release May 6, 2005 Contact: Elizabeth Chapman (202) 224-0610 (754 words) Fair Forecasts By Senator Rick Santorum (R-PA) Located on the shores of a Great Lake, Erie, Pennsylvania suffers from unpredictable weather patterns resulting from the “lake effect.” It took years fighting with the National Weather Service (NWS) to get adequate high quality local radar coverage for Erie and northwestern Pennsylvania, in spite of the dangerous changing weather. In my opinion, the Erie radar and other such services that need upgrading around the country should be a priority for NWS. However, instead of spending their resources on priorities like Erie’s unpredictable weather, NWS is seeking to duplicate services currently available. American taxpayers pay for the services of NWS. Therefore, it is prudent to ask the question, “How best can the National Weather Service serve the taxpayers of the United States?” The NWS can best serve the American taxpayers by focusing on its core responsibilities—utilizing its resources to provide the best possible forecasting information—rather than using limited public resources to aggressively compete with existing private sector forecasting services. Back in 1890 when the current NWS statute was enacted, the public received its weather forecasts and warnings almost exclusively from the Weather Bureau, NWS’ predecessor. In the late 1940s, a fledging weather service industry began to develop. From then until December 2004, NWS has had policies sensitive to the importance of fostering the industry’s expansion, and since 1948 has had formal policies discouraging competition with industry. Fourteen years ago NWS took the extra step of carefully delineating the respective roles of NWS and the commercial weather industry, in addition to pledging its intention not to provide products or services that were or could be provided by the commercial weather industry. This long-standing non-competition and non-duplication policy has had the effect of facilitating the growth of the weather industry into a billion dollar sector and of strengthening and extending the national weather enterprise, now the best in the world. It has increased the quality of choices for consumers, resulting in a multitude of popular choices including The Weather Channel. Yet in December 2004, the parent agency of NWS, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), repealed the 1991 non-competition and non-duplication policy with the private sector. This action taken by NOAA affects several companies in Pennsylvania who currently provide weather services as their business and employ close to 400 Pennsylvanians. With the jobs and public safety of Pennsylvanians as my first priority, I introduced the National Weather Service Duties Act to restore NWS’ non-competition policy that was in effect from 1991 to December 2004. My legislation will in no way change the kind of data NWS provided from 1991 to December 2004. As a matter of fact, my bill ensures that information issued by NWS will be done so in real time and simultaneously to all members of the public. Taxpayers pay for accurate and timely severe weather warnings by NWS. Funding for NWS then should be directed toward that core mission and toward fulfilling its duties to taxpayers. If you, as a taxpayer, received information from NWS during the time of the non-competition, non-duplication policy (1991-2004), you will continue to receive that information if my legislation is enacted. In contrast, doing nothing threatens the dissemination of quality weather services now free to most consumers. Another example that highlights NWS’ need to expend their resources on important tools rather than duplicating services and websites is NWS’ inadequacies during the 2004 hurricanes, such as Hurricane Charley. As Hurricane Charley hit southern Florida, the United States’ most sophisticated research aircraft for collecting data on hurricanes, two P-3 Orions, were nowhere near the eye of the storm. Instead they were studying monsoon effects in Mexico and air pollution in New Hampshire. Had the hurricane hunter planes studied the path of the storm, NWS could have helped to prevent the upheaval of many Floridians from their homes, and assisted the millions of Floridians impacted by the uncertainty of the path of a dangerous and deadly hurricane. The National Weather Service Duties Act asks NWS to restore their 14-year policy of non-competition with the private sector and get back to their core responsibilities of providing severe weather forecasts. The cost of receiving weather information will not change, and NWS will not cease dissemination of regular daily forecasts, weather information, and climate data. You will continue to receive weather services, and several hundred Pennsylvanians will keep their jobs. Most importantly, Pennsylvanians can be rest assured that NWS will be concentrating its efforts on public safety. I believe that is reason enough to support the National Weather Service Duties Act.
 
May 28, 2004
175
Oday Widgeon Beech Bluff, Tn.
Time Saver

OK, I just got through listening to RichH's posted link. If your interested in a press conference of Santorum about what he intends to do for Pennsylvania, listen to the whole thing. If your only interested in information pertinent to this thread, scroll ahead to 15:20 on the time bar. TaTa!!
 
J

Jim

Understand Plain English ?

Well isn't this interesting :) Not to sure if RichH is trying to be insulting or just heated, but most laws are not written in plain english. While Sen Santorum gets contributions from commercial interests, other Senators do too,so thats a non-issue I think, that's just business in Washington. * Mr. Landau, I think I agree with Franklin's reading of the bill, Section 2(f) pretty well defines products or sevices to include weather forecasts, Section 2(b) sez that they can't compete with the private sector unless the private sector is unwilling or unable to offer a product or service, and the bill insures that info they do issue shall be through data portals designed for volumn access by commercial providers (and other methods as the Sec of Commerce considers appropriate). I don't think I have taken anything out of context in my reading of this bill. The only current service that is protected by the bill is severe weather warnings. Every other service that the NWS has is up for commercialization. * Now both the press release and a couple of posters on this thread assure us that all of our free <well paid for by taxes> services will continue, but I see nothing in that bill that protects any of those services, and in plain english, I think that the assumption that it will be business as usual at the NWS after this bill is passed is wishful thinking. * Reading the plain english of Sen Santorum's bill, I see nothing about the issues mentioned in his news release (P3 Orion airplanes or Lake Erie weather forcasts) but it does seem to go far to ensure his district has 400 private sector jobs that depend on free weather data paid for by tax payers.
 
Jun 2, 2004
1,438
Oday 25 pittsburgh
Don, you are missing the point.

I really didn't want to get this deep into it but the original post questioned this information and then ruled on it and in my opinion wrongly. I do the same thing here when someone posts a bogus or dangerous idea when responding to another poster. This is an issue that affects us and I think that is why Phil has let it run and as political as it could have gotten, it has stayed a good debate on the facts and not the politics. My purpose for contacting Santorum was to get his reason why this would be needed. Not for political purposes but so that we as a community would know why this Bill has been drafted. As for written responses, I would perfer them any day to a politians verbal word. This could be a good thing for all of us and it is being questioned with assumptions and without facts. I guess I don't need to post the letter.Thanks RichH for the information. Now we know why the Bill was drafted and that it should not affect the service that has been provided by the NWS and NOAA in the past, it prevents them from branching out in the future unless deemed nessessary by the Secretary. It should improve the service the NWS and NOAA provides if they focus on improving that which they have provided in the past. EDITED: I was not going to include this because this makes it political but it answers a question previously asked, is it not good to save jobs even if it isn't yours?(not to be answered ) Thanks Phil for allowing this fine line debate I personally am done posting on this thread. I think that the facts are out and the thread has taken it's course and can only get ugly and political from here. r.w.landau
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Jim - Your original post listed STOP WEATHER reports ...

and I simply mistook your listing to actually mean that the NWS will stop weather forecasts. So which is it? .... your apparent misleading 'fabrication'; or, Santorum's statement that the federal govement and taxpayers shouldnt be paying for local ski area forecasts, etc. because the NWS should have more important things to do? ... like they did between 1991 and 2004. Seems to me that Santorum wants the NWS to return tp their mission as of before 2005.
 
Feb 12, 2005
143
- - Lake Worth, FL
I called my FL senators about this

and the general idea I got was that (pro or con) it would stop data from the weather network being distributed to the citizens free of charge. This means all weather satellites, ocean sensors, land based weather stations, etc. We would need to purchase the data from a service such as weather.com We already pay for the data, and this bill may possibly violate the provisions under the Freedom of Information Act. BTW, one senator here in Florida is republican and one is democrat. I didn’t talk with the senators themselves, I talked with a staffer. Both are still putting together a public statement about their positions on it.
 
Jun 9, 2005
2
Macgregor 26D portsmouth nh
privatization cool!

I think it's great that the private sector assumes this market. Why on earth should the average folk who never need these services pay (taxes).
 
K

Kevin

What?

Putting aside the politics (which are clearly driving this thread) and all of the clutter, do any of you seriously think that you will have to start personally paying for weather forecasts?! Chill out guys, I promise you that you will be able to continue getting up to date weather forcasts free of charge. Read, disect, and argue the meaning of this bill to death if you will. I promise you, that when all is said and done, you will not have to pay for weather forecasts. Now, if you have some politically motivated response, please identify it as such, so that those of us so inclined, do not have to bother reading it. Thanks.
 
May 6, 2004
916
Hunter 37C Seattle
My take on the Bill

and I read, interpret (and twist a little) law for a living, is that it will protect and promote private investment in weather services that the NWS does not provide at present by avoiding the risk that the GOv will step in to markets already privatly developed. The "or could be" language is troubling because it leaves this gray area where there is no product or service provided, but it could be provided, so NWS sits on its hands. Its a policy decision whether the Bill is good for us taxpayers. It would promote private sector investment and jobs in the weather business, but broaden the products you have to pay for (after you have paid your taxes). Law are hard to write, but some are clear in their meaning, such as the linked race rules.
 
C

Clyde

For or Against Bill S786

Senate bill 786 has generated a lot of public discussion. The people against the bill range from surfers, skiers, backpackers, boaters, sailors, commercial fishermen, small farmers, small ranchers, scientist, geologist, and people with physical disability. The range include people who are outdoors' type and people, who unfortunately are unable to spend much time outdoors, but who depend on NOAA for weather information. Each of these organization has come out against the bill. You can do a simple Internet search and find bulletin boards filled with people against this bill. You can also find people who are for the bill. We live in a democracy, everyone has a voice and a right to his/her opinion. Being for or against the bill doesn't mean its right or wrong, only that you disagree with it. I am against this bill. Fair Winds, Clyde AGIANST BILL 786 American Geological Institute (AGI) United Fisherman of Alaska (UFA) American Fisheries Society (AFS) Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) Boat US American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) National Organization On Disability (NOD) National Weather Service Employees Organization (NWSEO) Chamber of Shipping of America (CSA) FOR BILL 786 Commercial Weather Service Association (CWSA) Boat US http://www.boatus.com/gov/sb786.htm New York Times http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/04/opinion/04sat2.html?ex=1118635200&en=679eb6c93a7ef6a7&ei=5070&emc=eta1
 
K

Kevin

Thanks Clyde

for proving that this is all about politics, as I said. You could not have made it more clear. Thanks again.
 
J

Jim

Fabrication?

RichH asked "So which is it? .... your apparent misleading 'fabrication'; or, Santorum's statement that the federal govement and taxpayers shouldnt be paying for local ski area forecasts, etc. because the NWS should have more important things to do? ." * I'm not sure what his (RichH's) question is there...I guess when you can't talk from fact you j'accuse, but I will ask he and Mr Landau quote any section of the bill that says the NWS shall maintain any services to the general public except severe weather warnings. * Just as a weather report about a ski area is a report for a "special interest" so are the agricultural forecast, the wind and wave reports, Gulf stream position reports, etc. * Once upon a time the USCG would give you a tow or some gas, now that is in the hands of SeaTow and others. Once you could get a Marine radio license through the FCC at a reasonable cost, now that has been commercialized. I'm sure there are other examples. But in fairness I will also say that making the geographic database available for commercial purposes has given us a new range of map and navigation products, without imposing extra costs on me when I need a paper chart. I'm sure that if Accu-weather comes up with something new that makes my sailing safer, then I will buy it. And if it is new, they should copyright or patent it, and they won't have any competition from the NWS. * I do not have faith that the government will continue to provide me all the non-fee services that they do today, simply because past history has shown that they don't. The only thing I have seen or read that says that the NWS will continue to provide those services are statements from Sen. Santorum. Mr. Landau may have good reason to trust his Senator's word and intentions, but I will stick with my original contention. I'm against this bill. :(
 
K

Kevin Dufresne

Thanks Jim,

we could tell from your original post that you are against the bill, and I assure you that no one expected you to change your mind.
 
May 28, 2004
175
Oday Widgeon Beech Bluff, Tn.
What Now?

*box Ok! Now that everybody with an opinion has gotten it off their chests, what are you going to do about it? Don't work off a good mad on this site and then forget it. Every Senator has a web site and contact information. It takes about 5 minutes to write to your local guy put him to work. Incourage your friends to do the same thing, I did. If Frist starts getting enough complaint letters, he'll be taking Santorum to the wood shed. I lit Santorum up also but he hasn't returned any information. Imagine that! If there are any two things that get's a politicians attention, it's "Campaign Contributions" and votes, or the lack of votes if they don't act right.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Santorum's bill doesnt have a necessary co-sponser

I spoke with several of Santorum's offices and questioned the intent of the bill as would affect outdoorsmen, sailors and general aviation pilots, etc. After posing several direct no/yes questions to several of his staffers ... all I can say/post at this point is to absolutely contact your senator and express your disapproval for this senate bill. Letting your own senator know your opposition *will* influence the outcome. I also called the office of Senator Arlen Spector (also of Penna.) and had a long discussion with staffers there ... and it seems that this bill is such a 'hot potato' that NO other senator is currently offering the necessary 'co-sponsorship'. It is also believed that this bill is so highly unpopular that it probably will not be approved/recommended by the senate commerce committee. Politics to me is supremely distasteful; but, Please call or write or email your senator ... and **actively** oppose this bill - S.786 The commerce committees leadership is Senator Ted Stevens Chairman and Senator Daniel K. Inouye Co-Chairman and I suggest that also contact those senators and express your disapproval. ;-)
 
M

MArk

Encouragement

Thanks for reminding me J.B. I'll be writing both Frist and Satorum to encourage them to continue reducing government waste and insure that NOAA continues to do the job they were created for rather than becoming a corrupt special interest enterprise (like what happened with the CORPORATION for Public Broadcasting). I have no problem paying to see The Weather Channel on my cable TV ("free" on the internet) or sitting through commercials on "free" TV or "free" radio if I want someone's interpretation of NOAA's raw data and pretty graphics. (I say "free" in quotes because the sponsoring corporations are actually doing the paying which is reflected in the price of products I choose to buy.) I don't want another PBS type setup that constantly runs commercials that the claim are not commercials then have incessant fund raisers plus hundreds of millions in government subsidies.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,320
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Apply Analytical Boating Skills

This has been so refreshing that I printed it all out last night and read through it again. Remember, this message is coming to you from someone who "has been taken to the woodshed" on this board for asking people to do some research and read books! *o What I find interesting is that when the subject has to do with a topic that may be somewhat divergent from ONLY boating (i.e., what hardware, etc., to use or to recommend) that the heat goes up, without the associated light. Seems to me that politics can't be avoided when it is a politician that has begun the debate. So, that said, why are we drawing knives here on this topic when we don't do the same to each other when we disagree over which is a better lubricant? C'mon guys, we all work together so well here. Let's keep up the GOOD work. That also doesn't mean we can't disagree, and we know we can do that "professionally." Personally, I have not yet read the the bill, and will do so soon. The only basic question (rhetorical - and food for thought for all of us) is to ask: WHY is the bill being introduced in the first place? and What is it changing? Given the discussion above, it seems that different people are reading the same thing and coming up with different answers. So, just because this particular Senator is either: - a dirt sucking beanbag from the Paleolithic era who's out to double the costs to us sailors and taxpayers or - the greatest thing thing sliced bread and wants to free the private sector from government abuse and slavery ....we should and can still act civilly toward each other. I agree that charting is a very good example of how "privatization" has improved things for us, because we are paying the same or less for better information. I am NOT yet convinced that IF the allegations are correct that having to depend on and pay a private source for what is NOW free is the right way to go. Please note that I said IF. If that is the case, then I would only expect my taxes to go DOWN to balance that out. Think that's ever gonna happen? (Another rhetorical question!) Phil, thanks for keeping this thread going. Guys, thanks for contributing. Fair winds, Stu
 
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