I purchased a Blue Sea "Dual Circuit Plus" switch to install this weekend. It appears to be much simpler than the existing switch which has 4 positions ... the typical "Off - 1 - Both - 2". This new switch is just "Off - On - Combined". In the "On" position, the switch energizes and isolates the house battery (or battery bank) and the starter battery circuits. In the "Combined" position, the circuits are combined for whatever reason. Just looking for opinions ... anybody see any downside to this? Our battery needs are very light, and for now, we have 2 group 27 deep cycle batteries rather than a deep cycle for house and a separate starting battery.
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That switch was designed
for large house banks and separate start banks. Sometimes, Scott, I'm forced to laugh over the "marketing" hype. Analyze the switch. What does it do that an old 1-2-B switch did NOT do, assuming the 1-2-B switch was wired properly? If your house bank is #1 and start is #2: 1-2-B switch - #2 starts the engine, #1 runs the house. BOTH is where it gets "funny" because as I've presented previously, so many people have their alternator output run TO the C post of the 1-2-B switch, thus literally forcing them to start on B to get both banks charged. If, however, your alternator output goes directly to the house bank, and you've found a way to charge your start bank with a combiner, echo charger or another manual switch, then the 1-2-B switch is only doing two important thing: taking power OUT of your chosen bank to start the engine and run the distribution panel. In your case, with two equal house banks, the new switch makes even less sense, because that's not what it was designed to do. So, in answer to your question, hang onto it, but don't rush to install it, figure out how your alternator output is wired, and then decide what you want to do depending on how you use your boat. If there's nothing wrong with your existing switch you can keep it. If your existign switch has problems, then compare the cost between this newfangled thingy and a basic 1-2-B switch and whatever wiring changes you may or may not have to make. Hope your review of your "flash" is OK.
for large house banks and separate start banks. Sometimes, Scott, I'm forced to laugh over the "marketing" hype. Analyze the switch. What does it do that an old 1-2-B switch did NOT do, assuming the 1-2-B switch was wired properly? If your house bank is #1 and start is #2: 1-2-B switch - #2 starts the engine, #1 runs the house. BOTH is where it gets "funny" because as I've presented previously, so many people have their alternator output run TO the C post of the 1-2-B switch, thus literally forcing them to start on B to get both banks charged. If, however, your alternator output goes directly to the house bank, and you've found a way to charge your start bank with a combiner, echo charger or another manual switch, then the 1-2-B switch is only doing two important thing: taking power OUT of your chosen bank to start the engine and run the distribution panel. In your case, with two equal house banks, the new switch makes even less sense, because that's not what it was designed to do. So, in answer to your question, hang onto it, but don't rush to install it, figure out how your alternator output is wired, and then decide what you want to do depending on how you use your boat. If there's nothing wrong with your existing switch you can keep it. If your existign switch has problems, then compare the cost between this newfangled thingy and a basic 1-2-B switch and whatever wiring changes you may or may not have to make. Hope your review of your "flash" is OK.
Simplification ...
Basically 2 reasons for buying the switch. The old one must have taken a physical beating in the past since the plastic housing has cracked in a few locations so I want to replace it regardless. But the new switch still seems like a much simpler function to me. I am not sure by your post what you are saying is the proper way to wire the alternator output. If you wire it to the C post then to charge both batteries you have to start on B position. (This is what I do now regardless of which way the alternator is wired). Are you are saying that if the alternator output is wired properly, you have to have an echo charger or a combiner to charge both batteries? I don't have either one. So I must have the alternator wired to the C post. I'll have to look for that. There are 3 posts and I'm not sure they are labelled. There is one to the side and 2 more or less together. But you raise a question in my mind. My assumption is that with this new switch, I could have dedicated banks where I didn't have that before because the old one is switched to either 1 or 2 or Both - but not 1 on and 2 on and isolated. This new switch allows you to have 1 and 2 on and isolated or 1 and 2 on and combined. That seems better. I assumed that would mean that both batteries would charge no matter which position it was set to. What I question now is whether or not I need an echo charger or combiner to charge both batteries when they are isolated or do I need to position the switch to "combined" to charge both batteries (just like the B position on the old switch). The fireworks I had were no more than an amusing story, fortunately!
I checked all the other wiring and had no other problems. I also finished wiring the stereo and listened to some Allison Krause before going home! I've still got some mystery wiring though. There was an 8 AWG (green insulation) wired from the positive post of one of the batteries directly to a post on my AC current panel. I couldn't figure out any reason for it and since I never use shore power, I disconnected it (mainly because the wire was nearly broken at the lug and I noticed a point where the insulation had worn thru. *yks The more I look into this stuff, the more I want to get a firm handle on it!
Basically 2 reasons for buying the switch. The old one must have taken a physical beating in the past since the plastic housing has cracked in a few locations so I want to replace it regardless. But the new switch still seems like a much simpler function to me. I am not sure by your post what you are saying is the proper way to wire the alternator output. If you wire it to the C post then to charge both batteries you have to start on B position. (This is what I do now regardless of which way the alternator is wired). Are you are saying that if the alternator output is wired properly, you have to have an echo charger or a combiner to charge both batteries? I don't have either one. So I must have the alternator wired to the C post. I'll have to look for that. There are 3 posts and I'm not sure they are labelled. There is one to the side and 2 more or less together. But you raise a question in my mind. My assumption is that with this new switch, I could have dedicated banks where I didn't have that before because the old one is switched to either 1 or 2 or Both - but not 1 on and 2 on and isolated. This new switch allows you to have 1 and 2 on and isolated or 1 and 2 on and combined. That seems better. I assumed that would mean that both batteries would charge no matter which position it was set to. What I question now is whether or not I need an echo charger or combiner to charge both batteries when they are isolated or do I need to position the switch to "combined" to charge both batteries (just like the B position on the old switch). The fireworks I had were no more than an amusing story, fortunately!
I checked all the other wiring and had no other problems. I also finished wiring the stereo and listened to some Allison Krause before going home! I've still got some mystery wiring though. There was an 8 AWG (green insulation) wired from the positive post of one of the batteries directly to a post on my AC current panel. I couldn't figure out any reason for it and since I never use shore power, I disconnected it (mainly because the wire was nearly broken at the lug and I noticed a point where the insulation had worn thru. *yks The more I look into this stuff, the more I want to get a firm handle on it!
I knew it, Scott, it's the good music you're listening to!
Alison Krauss, let me count the ways. Found her live album in a huge set of CDs in the house we stayed in in Cornwall two years ago on a house exchange. Can't stop playing it and the newer ones. Far out - great music. You raise some good points, so here goes: 1. "Are you are saying that if the alternator output is wired properly, you have to have an echo charger or a combiner to charge both batteries? I don't have either one. So I must have the alternator wired to the C post. I'll have to look for that. There are 3 posts and I'm not sure they are labeled. There is one to the side and 2 more or less together." I think "properly" may be a misnomer. The real issue, as you say, is to find out how it is wired. The majority of the boats until just recently were factory wired with the alternator output to the “C” post of the switch. This means that the switch is actually used for two purposes: which battery bank(s) the alternator charge goes to when the engine is running, and which bank is chosen for use for DC power. The OTHER way to do it is to wire the alternator output NOT through the switch but directly to the house bank with a "suitable" means for charging the start bank. This takes the form of a combiner or echo charger or ACR which are automatic relays that close to charge the start bank when charging voltages are present; it could also be done with a manual switch, but that's adding complexity. For a TWO HOUSE BANK arrangement, which is what you seem to have, this concept works just as well. The trick here, Scott, is that wiring through the switch REQUIRES starting on both to get the second bank charged at all from the alternator. If you run the output to one of the house banks with a combiner, then the ONLY function of the switch is to take power OUT of the batteries. Like anything else on a boat, there are a number of ways to do it. *************************************** 2. "But you raise a question in my mind. My assumption is that with this new switch, I could have dedicated banks where I didn't have that before because the old one is switched to either 1 or 2 or Both - but not 1 on and 2 on and isolated. This new switch allows you to have 1 and 2 on and isolated or 1 and 2 on and combined. That seems better. I assumed that would mean that both batteries would charge no matter which position it was set to." Please, don't assume. Please look at the way the wiring is set up with the new switch. It has four connections: input - BANK #1 AND BANK #2 (just like the old switch) and Distribution Panel OUT and Alternator Output IN (just like the old switch, too). All the new switch does is eliminate the one of the two original positions, but it does two other things poorly: 1) It doesn't appear let you select EITHER of the two banks, just one or both (think about it and look at the wiring diagram in the WM catalog); 2) You MAYBE are required to continue to run your alternator output through the switch (which I think is nuts) because the picture in the catalog shows a distribution panel and an engine - it is unclear to me whether this engine is for using the separated banks on the "1" position of the switch to start the engine OR to "accept" output from the engine alternator, since the engine is an outboard. Personally, I just don't see the "advantage" of this switch, because if one is too limited to understand BOTH, then "combine" is an even bigger word! One of the reasons I think it's nuts is that if you significantly up size your alternator, the wiring size of the wires between the switch and batteries could get "undersized" since they're usually only #4 which are good for up to 30 amps. Depending on the DISTANCE, since wire sizing is based on amp load AND distance, with a larger alternator these wires could be considered to be too small. That's why I deliberately got my alternator output off the switch. 3. "This new switch allows you to have 1 and 2 on and isolated or 1 and 2 on and combined. That seems better. I assumed that would mean that both batteries would charge no matter which position it was set to. What I question now is whether or not I need an echo charger or combiner to charge both batteries when they are isolated or do I need to position the switch to "combined" to charge both batteries (just like the B position on the old switch)." You need to check the wiring and how it works for both switches. You don't need a combiner if you put the new switch to combine, because that's what it does. It's the SAME as BOTH on a 1-2-B switch. ******************** So, please think about what you want to do and understand how the new switch works compared to the old ones. Spend a bit of time sketching out how your boat is wired, how the old switch works, and what the new one can and can't do. If it was my boat, with your goals, I'd simply use a new replacement 1-2-B switch. The next step "up" would be to remove your alternator output from the switch. In your case with a two house bank setup, a combiner is a better relay. The echo charge is just like a combiner, but limits current to about 15 amps, and is best employed with a large house bank and a small start bank. The "final step" would be to combine your two house banks into one larger bank, and add a small start bank, but if your boat use and batteries work for you now, that's not necessary.
Alison Krauss, let me count the ways. Found her live album in a huge set of CDs in the house we stayed in in Cornwall two years ago on a house exchange. Can't stop playing it and the newer ones. Far out - great music. You raise some good points, so here goes: 1. "Are you are saying that if the alternator output is wired properly, you have to have an echo charger or a combiner to charge both batteries? I don't have either one. So I must have the alternator wired to the C post. I'll have to look for that. There are 3 posts and I'm not sure they are labeled. There is one to the side and 2 more or less together." I think "properly" may be a misnomer. The real issue, as you say, is to find out how it is wired. The majority of the boats until just recently were factory wired with the alternator output to the “C” post of the switch. This means that the switch is actually used for two purposes: which battery bank(s) the alternator charge goes to when the engine is running, and which bank is chosen for use for DC power. The OTHER way to do it is to wire the alternator output NOT through the switch but directly to the house bank with a "suitable" means for charging the start bank. This takes the form of a combiner or echo charger or ACR which are automatic relays that close to charge the start bank when charging voltages are present; it could also be done with a manual switch, but that's adding complexity. For a TWO HOUSE BANK arrangement, which is what you seem to have, this concept works just as well. The trick here, Scott, is that wiring through the switch REQUIRES starting on both to get the second bank charged at all from the alternator. If you run the output to one of the house banks with a combiner, then the ONLY function of the switch is to take power OUT of the batteries. Like anything else on a boat, there are a number of ways to do it. *************************************** 2. "But you raise a question in my mind. My assumption is that with this new switch, I could have dedicated banks where I didn't have that before because the old one is switched to either 1 or 2 or Both - but not 1 on and 2 on and isolated. This new switch allows you to have 1 and 2 on and isolated or 1 and 2 on and combined. That seems better. I assumed that would mean that both batteries would charge no matter which position it was set to." Please, don't assume. Please look at the way the wiring is set up with the new switch. It has four connections: input - BANK #1 AND BANK #2 (just like the old switch) and Distribution Panel OUT and Alternator Output IN (just like the old switch, too). All the new switch does is eliminate the one of the two original positions, but it does two other things poorly: 1) It doesn't appear let you select EITHER of the two banks, just one or both (think about it and look at the wiring diagram in the WM catalog); 2) You MAYBE are required to continue to run your alternator output through the switch (which I think is nuts) because the picture in the catalog shows a distribution panel and an engine - it is unclear to me whether this engine is for using the separated banks on the "1" position of the switch to start the engine OR to "accept" output from the engine alternator, since the engine is an outboard. Personally, I just don't see the "advantage" of this switch, because if one is too limited to understand BOTH, then "combine" is an even bigger word!
One of the reasons I think it's nuts is that if you significantly up size your alternator, the wiring size of the wires between the switch and batteries could get "undersized" since they're usually only #4 which are good for up to 30 amps. Depending on the DISTANCE, since wire sizing is based on amp load AND distance, with a larger alternator these wires could be considered to be too small. That's why I deliberately got my alternator output off the switch. 3. "This new switch allows you to have 1 and 2 on and isolated or 1 and 2 on and combined. That seems better. I assumed that would mean that both batteries would charge no matter which position it was set to. What I question now is whether or not I need an echo charger or combiner to charge both batteries when they are isolated or do I need to position the switch to "combined" to charge both batteries (just like the B position on the old switch)." You need to check the wiring and how it works for both switches. You don't need a combiner if you put the new switch to combine, because that's what it does. It's the SAME as BOTH on a 1-2-B switch. ******************** So, please think about what you want to do and understand how the new switch works compared to the old ones. Spend a bit of time sketching out how your boat is wired, how the old switch works, and what the new one can and can't do. If it was my boat, with your goals, I'd simply use a new replacement 1-2-B switch. The next step "up" would be to remove your alternator output from the switch. In your case with a two house bank setup, a combiner is a better relay. The echo charge is just like a combiner, but limits current to about 15 amps, and is best employed with a large house bank and a small start bank. The "final step" would be to combine your two house banks into one larger bank, and add a small start bank, but if your boat use and batteries work for you now, that's not necessary.
Hey Stu..
If you are enjoying the bluegrass send me a hard drive and I'll load my entire bluegrass collection on there and ship it back to you. It includes every single Alison Krauss album..!
If you are enjoying the bluegrass send me a hard drive and I'll load my entire bluegrass collection on there and ship it back to you. It includes every single Alison Krauss album..!
Thanks for your input!
You gave me some things to think about. Probably the reason I didn't install it right away (I bought it some time last year) was because I was uncertain about a lot of these details. I'm still going to use it ... you're right, there is no clear diagram about the alternator wiring. I have to think that the alternator can be wired as you recommend - getting the output off the switch. I am going to look into that. I have no objection to getting a combiner or echo charger. In fact, I have even thought about upgrading the alternator. There is something satisfying about noodling out these issues - even if it is just an excuse to spend some money! ;D I like all her music with Union Station. Bluegrass is fun! I used to love all the Andy Griffith episodes when they had those good ole boys playing music! Do you like Dixie Chicks? Don't laugh! I really like their 3rd (I think) album - the one with "Landslide". Some really good songs like "White Trash Wedding" and "Long Time Gone" and a few others that I really like. "Today's country ain't got the same soul ... They sound tired but they don't sound Haggard They got money but they don't got Cash ... They got Junior but they don't got Hank ... I thank, I thank!! "
You gave me some things to think about. Probably the reason I didn't install it right away (I bought it some time last year) was because I was uncertain about a lot of these details. I'm still going to use it ... you're right, there is no clear diagram about the alternator wiring. I have to think that the alternator can be wired as you recommend - getting the output off the switch. I am going to look into that. I have no objection to getting a combiner or echo charger. In fact, I have even thought about upgrading the alternator. There is something satisfying about noodling out these issues - even if it is just an excuse to spend some money! ;D I like all her music with Union Station. Bluegrass is fun! I used to love all the Andy Griffith episodes when they had those good ole boys playing music! Do you like Dixie Chicks? Don't laugh! I really like their 3rd (I think) album - the one with "Landslide". Some really good songs like "White Trash Wedding" and "Long Time Gone" and a few others that I really like. "Today's country ain't got the same soul ... They sound tired but they don't sound Haggard They got money but they don't got Cash ... They got Junior but they don't got Hank ... I thank, I thank!! "
Interestingly enough, if you go to the next page
in the 2008 catalog, Page 416, they show the wiring diagram with the ACRs which are essentially "better" combiners. It's more confusing than their older wiring diagrams, because it now shows an outboard engine instead of the original engine, starter, alternator, switch, panel, etc. For years I've had issues with their wiring diagrams, as good as they've been. The concepts and the text is just fine, but they keep wiring the alternator output to the bloody switch!!! I've been working on an article about this, but can't get to it as much as I'd like. maybe I oughta get a laptop and work on it on the boat... Good thinkin' about thinkin' about it. I'd be interested in what you come up with. Dixie Chicks sound great, I must admit to not hearing much about them until they bashed Mr. B, but then we'd have to move this to the Sails Call Lounge. Have a great weekend.
in the 2008 catalog, Page 416, they show the wiring diagram with the ACRs which are essentially "better" combiners. It's more confusing than their older wiring diagrams, because it now shows an outboard engine instead of the original engine, starter, alternator, switch, panel, etc. For years I've had issues with their wiring diagrams, as good as they've been. The concepts and the text is just fine, but they keep wiring the alternator output to the bloody switch!!! I've been working on an article about this, but can't get to it as much as I'd like. maybe I oughta get a laptop and work on it on the boat... Good thinkin' about thinkin' about it. I'd be interested in what you come up with. Dixie Chicks sound great, I must admit to not hearing much about them until they bashed Mr. B, but then we'd have to move this to the Sails Call Lounge.
Have a great weekend.
There is no "right" way to wire it
There are some really dumb ways however. If you are going to get into the production, storage, and consumption of electrical power on your boat then you need to understand basic electricity. Any way you wire it so that you can charge what you want, when you want and discharge what you want, when you want is "correct" I personally do not like the fancy "automatic" switches as they consume volts that require you to adjust your non-adjustable regulator. This results in your batteries not being fully charged. WM is in the business of selling stuff. Buyer beware! The standard battery switch (1-2-both-off) (called a 3-way for some reason) will provide you with all the options you need. You will have to (gasp) manually set it to make it work however. But it is bullet proof and cheap. The automatic switches are great once you get them set up and buy lots of extra stuff and futz with new wiring........ and spend a lot of $$$$$. Save your $$$ and do it manually. Spend that $$$ on something for the wife and claim that you saved some money cause your smart and thought you'd spend it on her.
There are some really dumb ways however. If you are going to get into the production, storage, and consumption of electrical power on your boat then you need to understand basic electricity. Any way you wire it so that you can charge what you want, when you want and discharge what you want, when you want is "correct" I personally do not like the fancy "automatic" switches as they consume volts that require you to adjust your non-adjustable regulator. This results in your batteries not being fully charged. WM is in the business of selling stuff. Buyer beware! The standard battery switch (1-2-both-off) (called a 3-way for some reason) will provide you with all the options you need. You will have to (gasp) manually set it to make it work however. But it is bullet proof and cheap. The automatic switches are great once you get them set up and buy lots of extra stuff and futz with new wiring........ and spend a lot of $$$$$. Save your $$$ and do it manually. Spend that $$$ on something for the wife and claim that you saved some money cause your smart and thought you'd spend it on her.
By golly, I think I got it!
Scott, I read the fine print. Sometimes that's the only way. If you have the WM 2008 catalog (or their advisors online) go to pages 415 and 416. At the bottom of 415 in the blurb for the switch, under Advantages, item 1, it says: "Simple On/Off...(WITH AN ACR OR ISOLATOR INSTALLED). [caps mine] Page 416 extols the virtues of the switch but appears to requires an ACR or the other more expensive paralleling relays. WHAT THIS MEANS IS that regardless of where you land your alternator output or charger outputs, the new switch operates this way: 1. the house bank is connected to one side of the switch (let's say left - like in the pictures) 2. the engine bank (power output FROM the start bank TO the starter - the outboard engine seems now to mean th starter on your inboard diesel engine - why they did that is BEYOND me) on the right side 3. when the switch is in the ON position the left and right side are isolated. The only advantage of this compared to a 1-2-B arrangement is that it's one less step to have to "think" about when starting up the boat. Another popular option to this is to use the 1-2-B switch to ONLY combine banks for emergencies and use a separate second switch for the start bank, which in 2006 was one of their ways of doing it in this same Adviser. 4. when the switch is on the COMBINE the two banks serve both loads (distribution panel and engine) essentially the BOTH on a regular switch The ONLY way you can charge both banks with this switch IF YOUR ALTERNATOR OUTPUT GOES TO THE SWITCH, is to start the engine in the combine position UNLESS you've installed a combiner, echo charger, or one of the now three different versions of the ACR. If, however, you install a C, EC or ACR, you can run the alternator output to the switch OR to a PDP for the house bank, which I prefer. What this all means is that this switch, as I suspected, is no great shakes compared to a simple 1-2-B switch. It requires pretty much the same operational thought process. I found that once I drew out and then wired my system, I knew exactly how it worked. I've found the 1-2-B switch with the alternator output to the house back PDP and the use of the 1-2-B switch to choose the source of the power far easier to understand than separating and combining. Your boat, your choice. Your approach to think it out for you and your boat is the right thing to do. Thanks again for getting me to investigate this further, it's been on my plate but not at the forefront.
Scott, I read the fine print. Sometimes that's the only way. If you have the WM 2008 catalog (or their advisors online) go to pages 415 and 416. At the bottom of 415 in the blurb for the switch, under Advantages, item 1, it says: "Simple On/Off...(WITH AN ACR OR ISOLATOR INSTALLED). [caps mine] Page 416 extols the virtues of the switch but appears to requires an ACR or the other more expensive paralleling relays. WHAT THIS MEANS IS that regardless of where you land your alternator output or charger outputs, the new switch operates this way: 1. the house bank is connected to one side of the switch (let's say left - like in the pictures) 2. the engine bank (power output FROM the start bank TO the starter - the outboard engine seems now to mean th starter on your inboard diesel engine - why they did that is BEYOND me) on the right side 3. when the switch is in the ON position the left and right side are isolated. The only advantage of this compared to a 1-2-B arrangement is that it's one less step to have to "think" about when starting up the boat. Another popular option to this is to use the 1-2-B switch to ONLY combine banks for emergencies and use a separate second switch for the start bank, which in 2006 was one of their ways of doing it in this same Adviser. 4. when the switch is on the COMBINE the two banks serve both loads (distribution panel and engine) essentially the BOTH on a regular switch The ONLY way you can charge both banks with this switch IF YOUR ALTERNATOR OUTPUT GOES TO THE SWITCH, is to start the engine in the combine position UNLESS you've installed a combiner, echo charger, or one of the now three different versions of the ACR. If, however, you install a C, EC or ACR, you can run the alternator output to the switch OR to a PDP for the house bank, which I prefer. What this all means is that this switch, as I suspected, is no great shakes compared to a simple 1-2-B switch. It requires pretty much the same operational thought process. I found that once I drew out and then wired my system, I knew exactly how it worked. I've found the 1-2-B switch with the alternator output to the house back PDP and the use of the 1-2-B switch to choose the source of the power far easier to understand than separating and combining. Your boat, your choice. Your approach to think it out for you and your boat is the right thing to do. Thanks again for getting me to investigate this further, it's been on my plate but not at the forefront.
Bill's right
And another OPTION is to, assuming your wiring is sized right between your alternator, switch and banks) is to use the 1-2-B switch to do the combining, without a combiner. Simpler, when you're charging, regardless of where your alternator output goes, use B. When you start the engine use B and turn it to your house bank when the engine stops - only downside is you have to think about! If the AO goes to the switch, it's better to leave it there when the engine's running. I prefer the combiner approach simply because when motoring I can turn the combiner off, and never have to worry about the ramifications of frying the diodes if I turn the switch with the engine running, since the AO doesn't go through the switch. KISS makes good sense. But, still, lotsa ways to wire it. BTW, welcome back Bill, love your input.
And another OPTION is to, assuming your wiring is sized right between your alternator, switch and banks) is to use the 1-2-B switch to do the combining, without a combiner. Simpler, when you're charging, regardless of where your alternator output goes, use B. When you start the engine use B and turn it to your house bank when the engine stops - only downside is you have to think about! If the AO goes to the switch, it's better to leave it there when the engine's running. I prefer the combiner approach simply because when motoring I can turn the combiner off, and never have to worry about the ramifications of frying the diodes if I turn the switch with the engine running, since the AO doesn't go through the switch. KISS makes good sense. But, still, lotsa ways to wire it. BTW, welcome back Bill, love your input.
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