I've read the archives in relation to replacing the packing in the rudder stuffing box on my '79 H33. Some very good suggestions indeed. However, my packing nuts are so thoroughly rusted through that even an entire can of Liquid Wrench has proven unhelpful. I fear it is time for more drastic measures. It is a must fix because the "drip rate" is more accurately described as a "stream rate" when the engine is running. I've recently had to use my cordless saw-zaw (sp?) in order to cut out the old brass thru hulls for the galley sink, the head, and the transducer for the knot meter which were all equally seized (The previous owner obviously didn't provide much maintenance.) So I feel I may be up to the task, even in the tight quarters. The question remains IF I succeed in cutting off the packing nuts without harming the rudder shaft, I will have nothing to show the fabricator who will need to make new nuts from scratch? Any insights out there? Am I making this too difficult? - Marvin
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Ed Schenck
Cold chisel?
I am not familiar with the room you have to work but would opt for the chisel if possible. You would then have the nut in two pieces. That should be sufficient for a template for new ones.
I am not familiar with the room you have to work but would opt for the chisel if possible. You would then have the nut in two pieces. That should be sufficient for a template for new ones.
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Daryl
Consider this
Heat frequently helps free up frozen hardware. They make mini torches which may allow you to heat up the nut. If you do resort to cutting try a cutting wheel on a small dremel tool. It's easier to control than a sawall. If you resort to cutting the nut you'll have to remove the coupling from the shaft to install a new one. That can be a very difficult task on older vessels. If it goes that far pay for a short haul, remove the coupling and the entire stuffing box can be slid off the end of the shaft without removing the nut. Put it in a vise with a big pipe wrench and you're done. Folks frequently replace those old stuffing boxes for dripless systems. Frankly I'd never do that but you should be able to locate a nut of used box from a marine salvage place or ebay
Heat frequently helps free up frozen hardware. They make mini torches which may allow you to heat up the nut. If you do resort to cutting try a cutting wheel on a small dremel tool. It's easier to control than a sawall. If you resort to cutting the nut you'll have to remove the coupling from the shaft to install a new one. That can be a very difficult task on older vessels. If it goes that far pay for a short haul, remove the coupling and the entire stuffing box can be slid off the end of the shaft without removing the nut. Put it in a vise with a big pipe wrench and you're done. Folks frequently replace those old stuffing boxes for dripless systems. Frankly I'd never do that but you should be able to locate a nut of used box from a marine salvage place or ebay
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Pat McCartin
Marvin, you're post puzzles me....
You wrote that the rudder stuffing box was siezed. Later in the post you said the drip rate increased with the engine running. There are two seperate stuffing boxes on your boat. One on the rudder shaft the other on the prop shaft. From the responces I'm assuming the prop shaft stuffing is you're problem. So here goes. DON'T use a torch in a plastic boat, accidental carelesnes can kill you. I'd haul the boat and pull the prop off. Now go below and loosen the set screws that hold the shaft into the coupler, next disconect the coupler there sholuld be a large nut you'll need a socket and breaker bar to loosen. To hold the shaft while loosening the big nut put 2 bolts back into the coupler and get a bar to lever between them. If you can't get the nut off, have the yard get to it with an air powered impact gun. Once this is done pull the shaft out past the packing gland. Now you will be able to loosen the 4 hose clamps and walk the gland complete to a West/Defender supplier and buy a new one. These are universal as long as they measure up. Pat
You wrote that the rudder stuffing box was siezed. Later in the post you said the drip rate increased with the engine running. There are two seperate stuffing boxes on your boat. One on the rudder shaft the other on the prop shaft. From the responces I'm assuming the prop shaft stuffing is you're problem. So here goes. DON'T use a torch in a plastic boat, accidental carelesnes can kill you. I'd haul the boat and pull the prop off. Now go below and loosen the set screws that hold the shaft into the coupler, next disconect the coupler there sholuld be a large nut you'll need a socket and breaker bar to loosen. To hold the shaft while loosening the big nut put 2 bolts back into the coupler and get a bar to lever between them. If you can't get the nut off, have the yard get to it with an air powered impact gun. Once this is done pull the shaft out past the packing gland. Now you will be able to loosen the 4 hose clamps and walk the gland complete to a West/Defender supplier and buy a new one. These are universal as long as they measure up. Pat
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Ed Schenck
Different assumption.
Pat and Daryl, I believe Marvin really does mean the rudder post stuffing box. My assumption about the engine was that the stern squats under power which compounds his leak problem. I still think a couple of whacks with a sledge against a cold chisel will snap that nut. Another assumption is that there is room to swing. Another tool would be a pneumatic chisel.
Pat and Daryl, I believe Marvin really does mean the rudder post stuffing box. My assumption about the engine was that the stern squats under power which compounds his leak problem. I still think a couple of whacks with a sledge against a cold chisel will snap that nut. Another assumption is that there is room to swing. Another tool would be a pneumatic chisel.
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Pat McCartin
If it is the rudder..
You could try to get 2 pipe wrenches down there and posibily a pipe on one wrench to add to the lever. Pat
You could try to get 2 pipe wrenches down there and posibily a pipe on one wrench to add to the lever. Pat
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Marvin
Allow me to revise & extend my remarks....
Thanks for the assistance gentlemen. Interestingly enough, I'm not quite certain where the leak originated. I am almost positive that it is not the propeller shaft packing gland that is leaking. With the engine off, I could see a line of dampness coming somewhere a bit further aft than where the prop shaft exits the hull. With the engine on, there was a steady stream. In fact, I was concerned about the prop shaft because it didn't drip from the packing nut (where I heard that it should). I was even more confused when I investigated further aft. I could not clearly locate where the rudder stuffing box was leaking. It was not leaking from the packing nut there either. I fear it may have leaked below that (is that possible?). The boat is dry docked for the entire winter so that I can accomplish a long list of repairs. As I am a new owner (since may '03) I figure it wouldn't hurt to repack both the rudder stuffing box and the prop shaft packing gland. Keep the questions coming. I sincerely appreciate the help.
Thanks for the assistance gentlemen. Interestingly enough, I'm not quite certain where the leak originated. I am almost positive that it is not the propeller shaft packing gland that is leaking. With the engine off, I could see a line of dampness coming somewhere a bit further aft than where the prop shaft exits the hull. With the engine on, there was a steady stream. In fact, I was concerned about the prop shaft because it didn't drip from the packing nut (where I heard that it should). I was even more confused when I investigated further aft. I could not clearly locate where the rudder stuffing box was leaking. It was not leaking from the packing nut there either. I fear it may have leaked below that (is that possible?). The boat is dry docked for the entire winter so that I can accomplish a long list of repairs. As I am a new owner (since may '03) I figure it wouldn't hurt to repack both the rudder stuffing box and the prop shaft packing gland. Keep the questions coming. I sincerely appreciate the help.
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Ernie T
Just to confuse the issue more...
I hate to add to your confusion, but last Spring I ran across a similar problem with my 79 H33. After re-stuffing the prop shaft box (with the boat on the hard)I noticed a strong stream of water entering from the vicinity of the stuffing box upon splashing the boat. Thinking I didn't tighten the gland nut enough, I tightened it some more. As I did, I noticed the entire stuffing box assembly rotating as I tightened. As it turns out the "rubber hose" that connects the stuffing box assembly to the shaft log was loose. Rather the hose clamps were loose. It was a real pain to tighten these and maintain a "grip" on the shaft log. The repair lasted lasted for all of last season, but this year I intend to replace the stuffing box with a dripless system. If it's any consolation, I too am faced with repacking the rudder box this Spring as well. I am hoping (but not counting on) the job going smoother than most posts have been for this procedure. Good Luck!!
I hate to add to your confusion, but last Spring I ran across a similar problem with my 79 H33. After re-stuffing the prop shaft box (with the boat on the hard)I noticed a strong stream of water entering from the vicinity of the stuffing box upon splashing the boat. Thinking I didn't tighten the gland nut enough, I tightened it some more. As I did, I noticed the entire stuffing box assembly rotating as I tightened. As it turns out the "rubber hose" that connects the stuffing box assembly to the shaft log was loose. Rather the hose clamps were loose. It was a real pain to tighten these and maintain a "grip" on the shaft log. The repair lasted lasted for all of last season, but this year I intend to replace the stuffing box with a dripless system. If it's any consolation, I too am faced with repacking the rudder box this Spring as well. I am hoping (but not counting on) the job going smoother than most posts have been for this procedure. Good Luck!!
Replace it with a nylon box.
Consider replacing the box with a nylon box rather than bronze. They can be done by hand in a pinch!
Consider replacing the box with a nylon box rather than bronze. They can be done by hand in a pinch!
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Pat McCartin
Marvin,
Also look at you're strut. Mine was so loose it sank the boat on the previous owner. I'm not shure on the 33 bot the 27 and 30 have struts that mount to the outside and thru bolt to plwood backing plates inside. You should be able to test it by trying to grab and move the strut from the outside, might need to remove the shaft. Pat
Also look at you're strut. Mine was so loose it sank the boat on the previous owner. I'm not shure on the 33 bot the 27 and 30 have struts that mount to the outside and thru bolt to plwood backing plates inside. You should be able to test it by trying to grab and move the strut from the outside, might need to remove the shaft. Pat
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Terry Arnold
H33 rudder post stuffing box
Marvin, the top of the H33 rudder tube is above the waterline under normal loading conditions, so even a leaky packing normally wouldn't leak with the boat moored. On the other hand with the boat underway and/or the propeller in forward, a high pressure stream impinges against the rudder and the tube, forcing water up and over the top of the packing if it is defective. Took me a long time to figure this leak that occurs only when underway out on my own 79 H33. Also, there evidently were different quality packing nuts used on the H33. My own packing nut is in perfect condition even though it has been in salt water all its life. Sam Lust with a late model H33 had to fabricate a new nut for his boat as it was thoroughly rusted out Searching the archives for rudder and Sam Lust will bring up his experience. also, the link is to a Ken Palmer article on servicing his own H33 rudder tube stuffing box.
Marvin, the top of the H33 rudder tube is above the waterline under normal loading conditions, so even a leaky packing normally wouldn't leak with the boat moored. On the other hand with the boat underway and/or the propeller in forward, a high pressure stream impinges against the rudder and the tube, forcing water up and over the top of the packing if it is defective. Took me a long time to figure this leak that occurs only when underway out on my own 79 H33. Also, there evidently were different quality packing nuts used on the H33. My own packing nut is in perfect condition even though it has been in salt water all its life. Sam Lust with a late model H33 had to fabricate a new nut for his boat as it was thoroughly rusted out Searching the archives for rudder and Sam Lust will bring up his experience. also, the link is to a Ken Palmer article on servicing his own H33 rudder tube stuffing box.
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Jim Logan
Ditto check the strut and the stuffing box
Had both of the previously mentioned problems - rebedding the strut and had to get a new rudder packing nut made. cost around $400 for one in stainless. No problems since. Had the same problem with water only coming in when under way.
Had both of the previously mentioned problems - rebedding the strut and had to get a new rudder packing nut made. cost around $400 for one in stainless. No problems since. Had the same problem with water only coming in when under way.
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Marvin Muller
Follow-up Question
Terry, thanks for your insights. Your theory makes good sense. My follow-up question/fear is whether it is possible for the leak to be located not through the rudder's stuffing box, but where the rudder shaft coupling assembly exits the hull? I wish I could better describe it. The reason for my question is that when I last put my autopilot (my wife) at the helm and inspected the assembly while the prop was spinning I noticed no leakage from the rudder stuffing box. Crazy, I know. Any thought much appreciated.
Terry, thanks for your insights. Your theory makes good sense. My follow-up question/fear is whether it is possible for the leak to be located not through the rudder's stuffing box, but where the rudder shaft coupling assembly exits the hull? I wish I could better describe it. The reason for my question is that when I last put my autopilot (my wife) at the helm and inspected the assembly while the prop was spinning I noticed no leakage from the rudder stuffing box. Crazy, I know. Any thought much appreciated.
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Marvin Muller
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D. Prior
Maybe not the packing nut?
I would like to add another option to this leak problem. I have a 1984 37C and have been through all the leaks mentioned and still had a leak that came from behind the prop shaft stuffing box. After a year of checking and regularly pumping out the bilges I found that the external, flexible flange between the hull and rudder is held on by three stainless self threading screws on each side. These screws go right through the hull into the area behind the stuffing box and behind the strut bolts but forward of the rudder shaft tube. In my case one of the screws was missing so there was a #6 screw hole right through the hull!! Easy to fix once you know where to look. Fair winds
I would like to add another option to this leak problem. I have a 1984 37C and have been through all the leaks mentioned and still had a leak that came from behind the prop shaft stuffing box. After a year of checking and regularly pumping out the bilges I found that the external, flexible flange between the hull and rudder is held on by three stainless self threading screws on each side. These screws go right through the hull into the area behind the stuffing box and behind the strut bolts but forward of the rudder shaft tube. In my case one of the screws was missing so there was a #6 screw hole right through the hull!! Easy to fix once you know where to look. Fair winds
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Ed Schenck
The strut is. . .
the appendage that contains the cutlass bearing that your prop shaft goes through, right in front of the prop and bolted to the hull. Not sure how yours looks. Some have a 'Y' mounting, the strut brackets each side of the hull. Mine is a flush mount on a flat section of the hull. I once unbolted it while on the hard, resealed it with 5200, and used a much larger backing plate inside and new stainless locknuts. Check the Related Link.
the appendage that contains the cutlass bearing that your prop shaft goes through, right in front of the prop and bolted to the hull. Not sure how yours looks. Some have a 'Y' mounting, the strut brackets each side of the hull. Mine is a flush mount on a flat section of the hull. I once unbolted it while on the hard, resealed it with 5200, and used a much larger backing plate inside and new stainless locknuts. Check the Related Link.
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Bob C
Same boat same problem(s)
I have the same boat, a '78, and have been chasing the problem of water intrusion off and on since I've owned her (17 years now). Some water will come in through the rudder stuffing box when the boat squats under power or is lifted by following seas. The nuts on mine were also frozen when I first tried to remove them. Liquid Wrench is not a very good penetrating oil. Try AeroKroil from Kano Labs (www.kanolabs.com) this is industrial stuff used in most power plants and industrial applications. It has worked on every seized metal to metal joint on my boat, including keels boats that have been submerged in salt water because of all the leaks and the prop shaft coupling. Apply it and wait a few minutes, reapply and tap with any soild metal object (I used a cold chisel) several times, repeat as often as necessary. Next, access is tough but I'm assuming that you've already pulled the panel out of the back of the quarter berth, it's easier from there, especially if you or a friend is left handed. Another thing to check that no one else has mentioned (this was the source of the majority of my sea water ingress) check the large hose that couples the cockpit floor drain to the molded in through hull. The bottom hose clamps on mine were rotted through on the back side where you couldn't see them and every time the stern squatted water came gushing in, yet with the boat at rest there was barely a drop. It's a great boat enjoy her. p.s. You know that the icebox drains into the bilge, right?
I have the same boat, a '78, and have been chasing the problem of water intrusion off and on since I've owned her (17 years now). Some water will come in through the rudder stuffing box when the boat squats under power or is lifted by following seas. The nuts on mine were also frozen when I first tried to remove them. Liquid Wrench is not a very good penetrating oil. Try AeroKroil from Kano Labs (www.kanolabs.com) this is industrial stuff used in most power plants and industrial applications. It has worked on every seized metal to metal joint on my boat, including keels boats that have been submerged in salt water because of all the leaks and the prop shaft coupling. Apply it and wait a few minutes, reapply and tap with any soild metal object (I used a cold chisel) several times, repeat as often as necessary. Next, access is tough but I'm assuming that you've already pulled the panel out of the back of the quarter berth, it's easier from there, especially if you or a friend is left handed. Another thing to check that no one else has mentioned (this was the source of the majority of my sea water ingress) check the large hose that couples the cockpit floor drain to the molded in through hull. The bottom hose clamps on mine were rotted through on the back side where you couldn't see them and every time the stern squatted water came gushing in, yet with the boat at rest there was barely a drop. It's a great boat enjoy her. p.s. You know that the icebox drains into the bilge, right?
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Marvin Muller
Hey Bob C
Thanks for the insights. I'll be certain to check the aft cockpit drain. I don't know why I didn't look there earlier. While we are on the subject of drains, does your forward cockpit drain share a thru-hull with your head intake? Mine does and I question this design. I will most likely dedicate that thru-hull to my head intake and redirect the forward cockpit drain to join it with the aft drain. On a separate note, I had discovered that the icebox drains to the bildge on the same day I found that a few of my portside windows and nearly half of the rub-rail bolts leak into the bildge as well. As you can tell, it was a fixer-upper. Worth every penny. -Marvin
Thanks for the insights. I'll be certain to check the aft cockpit drain. I don't know why I didn't look there earlier. While we are on the subject of drains, does your forward cockpit drain share a thru-hull with your head intake? Mine does and I question this design. I will most likely dedicate that thru-hull to my head intake and redirect the forward cockpit drain to join it with the aft drain. On a separate note, I had discovered that the icebox drains to the bildge on the same day I found that a few of my portside windows and nearly half of the rub-rail bolts leak into the bildge as well. As you can tell, it was a fixer-upper. Worth every penny. -Marvin
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J. Tesoriero
Another possible cause
I am having a little problem following the thread in this post but would like offer my two cents. On my 1980 H30 the prop shaft log, the thru hull fitting to which the prop stuffing box is attached, is a bronze tube & flange device that is bolted to the hull. Last spring, I had a very bad leak (stream) from behind the new dripless stuffing box. It turned out that the old bronze shaft-log thru hull fitting had corroded and fractured. You can tell if you have a similar set-up if you can see a series of bolt heads on the inside of the hull around the prop shaft and behind the stuffing box. There is also a metal flange around the outside of the prop shaft as it exits the hull. Hunter does not carry these anymore and I had to have one made-up at a local shop.
I am having a little problem following the thread in this post but would like offer my two cents. On my 1980 H30 the prop shaft log, the thru hull fitting to which the prop stuffing box is attached, is a bronze tube & flange device that is bolted to the hull. Last spring, I had a very bad leak (stream) from behind the new dripless stuffing box. It turned out that the old bronze shaft-log thru hull fitting had corroded and fractured. You can tell if you have a similar set-up if you can see a series of bolt heads on the inside of the hull around the prop shaft and behind the stuffing box. There is also a metal flange around the outside of the prop shaft as it exits the hull. Hunter does not carry these anymore and I had to have one made-up at a local shop.
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tom c
water lift muffler.
Marvin, i think you may find you have a leak in the water muffler. that is the only thing i can think of that would cause a stream of water only when the engine is running. Strut, packing glanes, ect. will leak all the time.
Marvin, i think you may find you have a leak in the water muffler. that is the only thing i can think of that would cause a stream of water only when the engine is running. Strut, packing glanes, ect. will leak all the time.
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