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Seidelmann 37 Rudder grinding

Nov 4, 2013
19
Seidelmann 37 West Palm Beach
Hi folks, we have a 1980 Seidelmann 37. A few days ago the rudder started making a grinding noise. The cables on the steering quadrant are secure and in good shape. The rudder has not dropped and turns fine to both sides.

Does the rudder have bearings or bushes that could have failed and if this is the problem who can we turn to for help? If it isn't the bearings is here anyone here who has had the same problem and solved it?

We are on a mooring ball in the ICW in West Palm Beach.

Appreciate any help we can get, thanks.

:confused:
 
Sep 15, 2009
6,241
S2 9.2a Fairhope Al
Last edited:
Nov 4, 2013
19
Seidelmann 37 West Palm Beach
do a search on rudder repair for the seidelmann by Nice&Easy he did this a few years back not sure what all he did but i remember reading something about it

his new screen name is sailaway he had to change his name due to being hacked on another forum i think
Thanks for the suggestion, will do. :)
 
Aug 26, 2014
12
Seidelmann 295 Barnegat Bay
Edson pedestal? Check the cables are all still running where they should be... Might have jumped a sheave. Any play in the rudder blade when wobbled?
 
Nov 4, 2013
19
Seidelmann 37 West Palm Beach
Edson pedestal? Check the cables are all still running where they should be... Might have jumped a sheave. Any play in the rudder blade when wobbled?
Yes, it is an Edson pedestal. I still need to dive and check for the amount of play in the water, will maybe do so later on the high tide when full. I will go back down in that cramped space too and have another careful look at the cables. I really hope it is just a matter of cables having jumped a sheave but our luck has not been on our side the last year or two lol.

I will let you know what I find, thanks for your assistance.

Len & Lisa
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Seidelman Rudder

blue water, I sent you a message earlier, and trying to remember more. There are two bearings on the rudder post. The upper one is also what holds the assembly up. It has a flange on top, and the quadrant rides on this flange to support the entire assembly. When I did mine, had to replace the shaft, which as I said earlier, was either 2 or 2 & 1/4 inch, Please excuse my poor memory. On my boat it was impossible to get the quadrant off the shaft. After two days of heat and a 1/2 inch impact to no avail, I cut the floor out of the cockpit and took the post and quadrant out the top. But my rudder was damaged and the post bent, so it all had to come out. There are 5 bolts holding the quadrant to the shaft. Two pinch bolts on each side, and one through the center and through the post. I would still look at the mounting plate under the pedestal first. Mine was pretty far gone. Water seeps through the pedestal mounting bolts and apparently basically sits on that plate. I will look for pics and send you what I can find. Good luck with the repair.
 
Aug 26, 2014
12
Seidelmann 295 Barnegat Bay
here's a thought. the grinding noise is hard to specifically locate but... try an automotive mechanics stethoscope. I use this for all kinds of things. try it applied to the rudder post, pedestal base, any sheaves you can reach, anything you can access while someone operates the steering. That might prevent you running down the wrong rabbit hole, so to speak. :)
 
Nov 4, 2013
19
Seidelmann 37 West Palm Beach
here's a thought. the grinding noise is hard to specifically locate but... try an automotive mechanics stethoscope. I use this for all kinds of things. try it applied to the rudder post, pedestal base, any sheaves you can reach, anything you can access while someone operates the steering. That might prevent you running down the wrong rabbit hole, so to speak. :)
Thanks for the suggestion, maybe I have described it incorrectly, it is probably more of a knocking noise than a grinding noise. I have found more movement than I would think there should be (when I dived and pulled at the bottom of the rudder). Everything else seems to be in good shape.

The knocking noise coincides with movement at the top of the rudder post (where it moves side to side slightly in the area where the emergency tiller fits).

I tightened the adjusting cable nut and bolt, which had come loose but this has merely ensured the cable doesn't jump the pulley wheel. The knocking noise is there when wakes hit us and the boat rocks, making the rudder post move in the shaft.

I wish I knew where exactly the bearings are and what they look like. Phil (Sailaway) has told me there are two). I may be proven wrong but my suspicion still lies with the bearing/s. Perhaps the top bearing because the movement appears to more at the top of the rudder post in the area where the emergency tiller slots in. Difficult to say though.

I appreciate the advice and time, thanks. I don't have a stethoscope but maybe I can find one somewhere :D.
 
Nov 4, 2013
19
Seidelmann 37 West Palm Beach
blue water, I sent you a message earlier, and trying to remember more. There are two bearings on the rudder post. The upper one is also what holds the assembly up. It has a flange on top, and the quadrant rides on this flange to support the entire assembly. When I did mine, had to replace the shaft, which as I said earlier, was either 2 or 2 & 1/4 inch, Please excuse my poor memory. On my boat it was impossible to get the quadrant off the shaft. After two days of heat and a 1/2 inch impact to no avail, I cut the floor out of the cockpit and took the post and quadrant out the top. But my rudder was damaged and the post bent, so it all had to come out. There are 5 bolts holding the quadrant to the shaft. Two pinch bolts on each side, and one through the center and through the post. I would still look at the mounting plate under the pedestal first. Mine was pretty far gone. Water seeps through the pedestal mounting bolts and apparently basically sits on that plate. I will look for pics and send you what I can find. Good luck with the repair.
Just seen your post now after replying to your email, thank you for your time and advice Phil. I find those 5 bolts and they are all relatively new so I suspect they were replaced by the previous owner, who I know did substantial work on the boat to make her more of a live aboard than a day sailor.

Just below the pinch bolts I see the flange that the quadrant rides on. There is a small seepage of water from time to time as the boat rocks back on the pitching motion. The seepage is through a hairline gap below the flange. The flange looks in good shape and doesn't appear to move, or at least doesn't move excessively. Is the top bearing located anywhere near here or is this where the bottom bearing is located?

I really do appreciate the help, thank you. :)

Len & Lisa
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
I think

If my memory hasn't failed me, I believe that flange the quadrant rides on, is also the upper bearing. The bearing has a lip on it which is the flange. It seems possible that you could change that bearing without removing the rudder, IF you could figure out some way to keep the rudder from dropping. I don't remember there being any kind of stuffing box or seal in there, as the top of that assembly is above the water line. This would explain the water coming in when the boat moves around. And a worn bearing would certainly let more water pass and enter the boat. If you could rig some kind of sling under the rudder to hold it up, you could probably manage to change this top bearing pretty easily, if you can remove the quadrant. If the bottom one is bad, then an entirely different story.
 
Nov 4, 2013
19
Seidelmann 37 West Palm Beach
If my memory hasn't failed me, I believe that flange the quadrant rides on, is also the upper bearing. The bearing has a lip on it which is the flange. It seems possible that you could change that bearing without removing the rudder, IF you could figure out some way to keep the rudder from dropping. I don't remember there being any kind of stuffing box or seal in there, as the top of that assembly is above the water line. This would explain the water coming in when the boat moves around. And a worn bearing would certainly let more water pass and enter the boat. If you could rig some kind of sling under the rudder to hold it up, you could probably manage to change this top bearing pretty easily, if you can remove the quadrant. If the bottom one is bad, then an entirely different story.
Thanks Phil. that makes sense. I am in the water and rudders float quite well. Perhaps if I tied a line on the pin that the emergency tiller slots onto and secured it, that will keep the rudder up in the shaft. My biggest concern then would be the forces that will be exerted on the rudder and with the top bearing removed I would be worried that the rudder post might swing hard and damage the rudder shaft? What do you think?

Of course my thinking is that if the top bearing is replaced perhaps it would be wise to do the bottom bearing at the same time? I wish there was a way to do this without the expense of the haulout and yard fees ... we are a bit cash-strapped after our ordeal but of course safety has always been my number 1 priority.

I guess the bottom bearing is in the shaft lower down and cannot be seen whilst the rudder is in place?

Regards.

Len:)
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Lower rudder bearing.

I found a pic of the lower rudder bearing after some looking. Sorry for the delay, but have been in Dallas visiting with family. Here is the only bearing pic I have. Hopefully this will help.
 

Attachments

Nov 4, 2013
19
Seidelmann 37 West Palm Beach
I found a pic of the lower rudder bearing after some looking. Sorry for the delay, but have been in Dallas visiting with family. Here is the only bearing pic I have. Hopefully this will help.

Thanks for the pic. I will be going down into that cramped space tomorrow and not looking forward to it. Will have to take out the 6 house batteries I have there to make space for me to drawl in deeper. :cussing:
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Good Luck

Hope things work out for you. I am thinking that the noise has to be from the upper bearing. It sounds more to me like it has dropped down, as opposed to a side load. The upper bearing is above the water line, but you will have to either pull the boat, or support the rudder when you remove the quadrant. Should not be a major problem to rig a sling of some kind under the rudder and use the jib winches to keep it up in place.
 
Nov 4, 2013
19
Seidelmann 37 West Palm Beach
Hope things work out for you. I am thinking that the noise has to be from the upper bearing. It sounds more to me like it has dropped down, as opposed to a side load. The upper bearing is above the water line, but you will have to either pull the boat, or support the rudder when you remove the quadrant. Should not be a major problem to rig a sling of some kind under the rudder and use the jib winches to keep it up in place.
Thanks for your continued input, appreciate it. We went out 2 days ago to sea and a bad swage inside the Edson pedestal failed. Had to use the emergency tiller to get back. Now I am working on fixing that. We haven't heard that noise for quite a while. Will keep you posted thanks. :)
 
Nov 4, 2013
19
Seidelmann 37 West Palm Beach
Hi Sailaway, I took a pic of what I believe is the top rudder bearing (below the 5 bolts under the quadrant). Not sure how to post pics on the forum?? Have I got it right?



Cheers.
 
Aug 18, 2013
8
Siedelmann S37 Toledo - HVYC
Captjim1
37 Seidelmann

I have a 1980 S37 and I installed a rudder with a 3 1/2" dia. I had this installed back in 1990 it has been working better than the old one. I have put 9000 NM without any rudder problems.
I did have problems when the Helm Wheel chain slipped off of the gear. This happened during teaching a newby how to steer a 37' sailboat Risque'. Never allow someone to turn the wheel hard so the chain jumps off the helm steering shaft.