See! You read and get info and now I got setup problems!

[joes new addiction]

I've been reading, "The Sail Trim User Guide" by Don Gillette.
Great book, it's like sail tuning for dummys.
You read a section and hit yourself in the head, "That makes sooo much sense".
Yesterday was my "evening sail", but I had made notes, (prehaps first mistake?) on what to look at , reset, try.
"I'm just gonna work on the MIAN sail, let the jib to later"................
It was good the lake was weird, good stiff breeze sections, dead calm, mild sections, ususaly I curse when it's like that, but this is great, I can try a lot more stuff I just learned.
First of all MY present set up................
This boat was a racing boat built in the 70's, so I'm guessing IF things are the way it rolled outta Texas when she was built, it WAS state of the art 42 years ago..........
I have a traveler and main sheet just about the center of my boom.
It has 2 hooks that grab where the sail used to slide on the boom, so it is adjustable back and forth. Right now I have it set @ the middle of the boom.
No Boom vang, no cunningham.
I THOUGHT she sailed well, figured the tell tales were telling me that it was pilot error, not set up, at times Icould even get them to behave the way they are supposed to.
I head out, get closed hauled, look at my twist as she is set up now, not too bad, top batten pretty close to parrell to boom, the draft pretty good, but looks more to the boom (foreward) than center.
I try tighting the out haul, better sail shape, "Hey looka me, I know what I'm doing"!
tighten the mainsheet line and the entire boom comes down????
OK, I BELIEVE only only the leech shoud tighten with this.
head into the wind, loosen the mainsheet, slide it back 1'.
back to close hauled, same thing????
Hmmmm the mainsheet acts like a boom vang? Could be, this didn't come with one.......
So the questons I have............................
I have @ 3' from the end of my boom to the transom, (well there is a small deck, but to the start of that). can I install my traveler and main sheet there and have it angled to my boom?
Then, install a boom vang?
I have to figure out a cunningham set up also.
or
Should I leave my main sheet as my boom vang, use the traveler to adjust the main sail?
Joe
See, this is how it starts, read something, figure I'll "make it better", take everything apart to "re engineer", only to totally screw it up!

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Joe, there are always many trade-offs ...

First of all, it appears you are keeping your boat and not trading up? Secondly, you should learn a few terms so that your questions are more clear ... I have a hard time following with some of your posts but I try!

It seems that you have mid-boom sheeting. That means that the attachment point for your mainsheet block(s) is about half-way along the boom. It sounds like you are thinking about changing to end boom sheeting. That may have a few advantages but you need to think it through. What would you gain with end-boom sheeting?

Keep in mind that your traveler and your mainsheet work in conjunction, essentially to eliminate the need for a vang, but only within the range of the traveler. I'll get back to that later because let's talk about the traveler.

Obviously, the traveler has a range that is limited by its width. The mid-boom sheeting allows the traveler to be forward where the angle from the centerline increases as the ends of the traveler move forward. In other words, your traveler has a greater range (measured by the angle from centerline) with mid-boom sheeting than it would with end-boom sheeting. Besides that, it seems better to me that when you are sitting with your aft hand on the tiller, you want to be reaching forward with your other hand to the mainsheet control lines rather than across your body to the aft end of the boat. Also, where your cleats and/or winches are located may make a difference, too. So, my advise is to leave the mid-boom sheeting alone.

You're right, tightening the mainsheet brings the boom down (which does tighten the leech). When the traveler acts to control the angle of attack (within its range), the mainsheet is essentially your vang, which adjusts your twist. However, keep in mind that when you ease the mainsheet you are also going to adjust the angle of attack .... easing the mainsheet allows the boom to move outboard AND rise, tightening the mainsheet will bring the boom in AND drop the boom down. You can't get away from that if you don't have a vang.

This is where the vang becomes important. When the traveler car is all the way outboard, you can't move the boom any further out without easing the mainsheet (for a reach or run). Unfortunately, when you ease the sheet, the boom also rises and the sail twists. This may be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the wind condition, but the point is that you can't control it without a vang. When the sail is within the range of the traveler, you can always use the traveler and the mainsheet in conjunction to adjust angle of attack and twist. But once you bear-off on a reach or a run, you are losing control of twist without a vang. The vang also affects draft in a secondary way, so adding a vang can be a good thing to do, but it depends on your preference for utilizing sail controls.

Your outhaul is very good for adjusting draft SHAPE. When you see that your deepest draft is closer to the mast (I think you said boom - which had me confused) - meaning that it is forward of the mid-point, that is generally a good thing. You want it there for power. Remember though that adjusting the outhaul only affects draft depth. Increasing draft depth with the outhaul does move draft forward, but only relative to the boat, but not the sail. The deepest part of the draft will always remain at the midpoint of the sail (if not affected by other controls) but the end of the sail moves forward, so the deepest draft would also move forward relative to the center of effort.

That's where the cunningham comes in. Tighten the cunningham to move draft position forward, ease it to move it aft. You have no cunningham, so your draft is affected as if the cunningham is totally relaxed, with draft position further back towards the midpoint of the sail. Your mainsheet is essentially the only control you have to affect draft position relative to the sail, since you don't have a vang and the outhaul affects only the shape.

If draft position is important to you, it is easy to add one and begin experimenting with it. Most sailors don't bother unless sail trim is of primary importance.

I don't have a clue about the hooks you describe. What do they "grab"? What do you mean "where the sail used to slide on the boom"? Are you talking about a bolt rope or sail slugs? It sounds like your outhaul works so I don't understand what is not sliding if you say something used to slide (but doesn't now?).

It is encouraging to know that your sails actually have some shape that you can affect with sail controls. I think it is much more difficult to understand what the tell tales are telling you (and where the draft position is) when the sails are an old bag.

Hope that helps!

 

[centerline]

joe, what you are experiencing is exactly where the term "ignorance is bliss" came from
it seems the more we know, the more we worry about the little things... not that sail shape is a little thing but there are lots of people getting from point A to point B, who have no cares about anything other than if the wind is strong enough to get them there

as Scott said, the correct terminology is importent. some of the terms may seem odd and out of place, but when the word is used correctly, everyone knows exactly what part your speaking of.... this is more importent than sail shape IMHO.... happy sailing

 

[joes new addiction]

I'm still thinking of moving up to a larger boat, "Fever Dream" is on a few sites fer sale, but no luck yet.
Till them, I'm "tinkering" with it. Sail-n-learn, maybe get it perfect for the next owner, maybe perfect for me if she doesn't go??
With little info out there on this boat, I dunno if the setup is how it's supposed to be from the builder or how the last sailor tryed. I can tell from the standing Rigging, the P.O. I got her from didn't have a clue.
I sail, go back to the dock, sit and figure out, this was good, this sucked, go to work (lunch time reading) and figure out what to do.
Everytime I have a question I SHOULD take a pic so it's all understandable, so my 1/2 sailor lingo 1/2 maintenance guy lingo is unversally understandable.
Funny, when I'm on the deck, all the termology is there, but here at my desk, I'm still a motorcycle racer!
The "clamps" slide where the slugs (although on the old sail it was a line sewn into the bottom of the sail. This sail has a slug at the end and a eyelet at the foot, the sail is free to form the draft).
Reading the book I THOUGHT I'd need something to pull down the front of the boom to keep sail draft, and something aft to open or close twist.
Seems all the other boats I've looked at seem to have a traveler at the aft part of the boom, (you know when you were a kid, "if everyone else jumped off a bridge would you)?
Joe

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Photos would help, too ...

Here are pictures of mine to help with clarification ...

As you can see, the traveler is closer to end boom but it is still forward from the helm position, mounted on my bridge deck. Many boats, those that are a few feet longer, would have the traveler mounted on the top of the coach roof in front of the companionway. There are pros and cons for any position and mostly it is related to the length of the boat, I think.

You seem to be talking about a "loose-footed" main. The "foot" is the entire length of the bottom of the triangle. The "tack" is the cringle where the bottom of the sail attaches to the boom at the mast. The "clew" is the cringle where the bottom of the sail attaches to the aft end of the boom. As you can see, I am on a very broad reach, near a run, so my outhaul is eased with the clew a little less than a foot from the end (probably not enough for this point of sail). You can also see that I have a loose-footed sail and the sail slug is also attached at the clew cringle.

The line that you speak of at the foot of the older sail is called the bolt rope, which would slide within a slot in the top of the boom. That type of sail would be called a shelf-footed main since the foot of the sail is attached to the boom for the entire length and forms a shelf. Your sail must be newer since it is loose-footed. I still don't know about the "clamps" but they don't seem to be relevant. Maybe you are speaking of rings which encircle the boom and are attached to the sail so that the rings slide along the boom with the sail. I wouldn't worry about what those are.

Many smaller boats have a gooseneck that can slide up and down the mast. The gooseneck connects the boom to the mast. An adjustable gooseneck would be controlled with a line that would draw the gooseneck down and increase downhaul tension much like a cunningham would do. As you can see, mine is fixed. A cunningham would be useful to increase downhaul tension, but you can see that I don't have one attached in this photo.

As you can also see, the traveler car is all the way outboard on this broad reach, so the main is also eased considerably. The vang is the only control line that I can use to control twist in this situation and you can see that it is tensioned.

Hope that helps!

 

[Stu Jackson]

Scott's input is very helpful. Terminology IS important. You wouldn't call the front of your motorcycle the bow, would you? There are tons of sources of information about boat parts. Any good book or even wikipedia would help. Try the Harken website, too.

Sailing with only the main changes everything you've read in Don's book, because so much of it is based on using both sails.

Take it a step at a time, and don't get impatient. Think of it this way: at least you're out on your boat!

Enjoy.

Most of still maintain that one of the joys of sailing as long as some of us have is that there's always something to learn.

 

[Nodak7]

Here are pictures of mine to help with clarification ...



Hope that helps!

Had to laugh at your picture Scott... is that big black thing in your picture the "sea dog" line warmer? I see you have "pre warmed" lines just like mine! :dance:

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Yeah, I was noticing that it was November in those pictures ... normally, she would be panting!